A Serious Concern I have about Dispensationalism

[thereselittleflower]

By the way,

You said:

“If you want to talk about races in such a manner, please feel free to start your own thread. Tbis one is not the one for you to do so in, and if you continue with this off topic discourse, I will not respond to it further.”
​

Me:
Do as you wish. It matters not to me but I will comment on your statements when it pleases me unless the administrators prohibit it.

And such off topic comments will be dismissed for what they are - irrelevant.




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[thereselittleflower]

Oye11

“And when you look at the nation of Israel today, one that is heavily involved in "white slavery," a scheme that involves importing women from Eastern Europe under false pretenses, taking their passports and forcing them to work in dirty brothels, etc. one cannot help but wonder if Zionism is not a work of man rather than God. That is especially so considering the ever so important point, that they almost unanimously reject God`s salvic economy through the cross.”​

I suppose anyone can come on here and say anything they want and no proof is needed for their claims. Are we to believe this because it is stated by an anti-Semite? Is this common knowledge and I have just missed it some how?

My, my, my . . . how woefully uninformed you demonstrate yourself to be about the very nation you so vehemently support and defend . . . either that, or you are being deliberate disengenuous and attempting to cast dispersions on another who simply has reported the COLD HARD FACTS of the matter.

Which is iti?

Are you truly unaware of the 1 BILLION DOLLAR White Slavery Trade that is a burgeoning industry in Israel?

Maybe you should become better informed about Israel before you return to this thread . .. I am sure you realize what such comments as you made above make you look like, especially when confronted with the facts:

White slave trade now earns US$1 billion annually in Israel.

A REPORT carried by the "News Israel" Hebrew website on the Internet on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 says that the total annual profits garnered from white slavery in Israel have reached the US$1 billion mark.
The website reported that the white slave trade has become a real industry in Israel.

The website noted that the figures on the industry were given today to the Speaker of the Knesset Ruby Rivlin by deputy Zahafa Galoun of the Parliamentary Investigations Committee.

The website reported that compiling the report took a period of four years during which the conditions of the white slave trade in Israel were observed. It became evident that the number of prostitutes who arrived in Israel rose from 3,000 to 5,000 women. The price of a woman in the prostitute market is between $8,000 and $10,000.​

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/05/03/Israel_slavetrade.html
​

An islamic site not good enough for you?

Let's try a JEWISH one!:

JEWISH TRIBUNE

March 30, 2006 - Adar 30, 5766

Trafficking in women a worldwide epidemic, Malarek says,
Up to - 10,000 trafficked women in Israel and more than 280 brothels in Tel Aviv alone -

...destitute Third World and Eastern European females as young as 12 are tricked into leaving their homelands with promises of wealth and prosperity in the West, as well as Israel. Instead, they are sold into the sex trade by organized crime, gangs, pimps and brothel owners.

"Newspaper ads from modelling and employment agencies promise exciting jobs, but the women are duped," Malarek told the Jewish Tribune. "They must submit, or they are raped, beaten and tortured. There are between 5,000 and 10,000 trafficked women in Israel and more than 280 brothels in Tel Aviv alone. It is a human rights issue the Jewish community knows about. They have a voice and they must use it."

...."Most people don't know how big this problem is," said Larry Sakow, who attended the public event. "As a Jew, I am upset about the trafficking in Israel. It is surprising that Jews have gotten into it and are making money."


Sex Slavery - The Growing Trade in Israel

Sex slavery: The growing trade in Israel, thousands of Eastern European and Russian girls lured to TelAviv and enslaved into prostitution

Commercial for attracting people to Israel: - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vblux0g4ouE

Up to - 20,000 trafficked women in Israel and more than 280 brothels in Tel Aviv ...
As customers - demands for slave trade workers who do not have HIV or AIDS ...

.....There are an estimated 20,000 female sex slaves forced into prostitution in Tel-Aviv each year. According to a report released in 2005 by the Knesset Subcommittee on Trafficking in Women, between 10,000 and 15,000 women had been smuggled into Israel over the previous four years to work as prostitutes. According to the report, the women, who were mostly from the former Soviet Union, were sold at public auction for as much as $10,000 and forced to work up to 18 hours a day. On average, the women received only three percent of the money they earned from prostitution, and many were raped and beaten. Most of the women had been smuggled over the Egyptian border and lured from Russia and Eastern Europe on false promises of secretarial jobs.



Israel Sex Slavery Thrives
Israel and the Ugly Slavery Trade

Human rights groups have long demanded actions against the trade in women in Israel. These women many from the former Soviet, are working as prostitutes in a condition of virtual slavery. Many of the Russian women who have ended up in Israel's brothels, some smuggled into the country from Egypt on the back of camels, expected to find jobs a cleaners and or working in childcare. There are certain places where auctions are taking place. The Israeli police well know the names. They are nightclubs or regular bars. The women are brought there, buyers come and look at their bodies and their teeth, then the bidding starts. They are held by the pimps, beaten and totally isolated

Dozens of brothels and peepshows have sprung up in Tel Aviv and Haifa in the last few years. There are over 20,000 women in prostitution in Tel Aviv. Their customers pay for 45,000 acts of prostitution every day. Women are held in apartments, bars and brothels where they are bought by up to 25 men a day. They sleep in shifts, four to a bed. (Police officials, Michael Specter, "Traffickers' New Cargo: Naive Slavic Women, "New York Times, 11 January 1998, They cannot walk freely. They cannot leave the apartment as they wish. Usually the passports have been taken.

Amnesty International investigation of the trade in Russian women suggests Israel's police and government officials have largely ignored the abuse.

And lots more at:
http://www.venusproject.com/ethics_in_action/Israel_Sex_Slavery.html


"A prostitute was considered as a partner in crime," says Meir Cohen, the police investigator. Instead of testifying, victims were simply arrested and deported. Police were instructed not to intervene in brothels. The authorities preferred to use pimps as intelligence sources for other underworld investigations. The police in Beersheba told Nomi that her client was lying, that it wasn’t important. So she sued the traffickers in civil court. She sued the police for not investigating. She even sued the ministry of interior for not issuing the woman a visa.

Suddenly, the police in Israel began to pay attention. More than 50 men were arrested almost immediately. "It was funny," says Nomi. "There were almost no men left in Beersheba." In May of 2000, Amnesty International had published an embarrassing report that condemned Israel for its cavalier attitude towards sex slavery. The resulting public clamor forced the Knesset to make trafficking in women an explicit crime with a maximum penalty of 16 years in prison.

Enforcing the new law was another matter. "No one wanted to deal with the problem," says Member of Knesset Marina Solodkin, who sits on the Parliamentary Inquiry Committee on Female Trafficking. "It was easier to just pretend that these women were new immigrants from the FSU and were not being trafficked into Israel."

........in 2001, the U.S. State Department placed Israel on a "blacklist," among countries that were failing to combat trafficking in women. The State Department’s report was not simply a stain on Israel’s reputation. United States law forbids the government from providing non-humanitarian aid to countries put on the blacklist.

http://www.israelnewsagency.com/sexisrael69690531.html


And from the JERSUSALEM POST:

in the past few years Israel has been flooded with thousands of women who are smuggled into the country in order to engage in prostitution, as part of a vigorous trade.

According to current estimates, we are talking about the horrifying number of 3,000 women, mostly from the former Soviet Union.

In most cases, they are located and brought in under the auspices of international crime networks by seduction, fraud, coercion and threats. They are smuggled into Israel by various routes, the most common one being through the Egyptian border. Israeli police have been astonished to discover hundreds of women over the years marched through the Egyptian desert, by day and by night, in cold and in heat. A veritable exodus.


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
​

So tell me, do you consider this justified?

I am sure the answer is a resounding "NO!, "so I will continue with the lesson:

How is this not justified since God said this:

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life....." (Leviticus 25:44-46)​

and you say racial discrimination (racism) is justified because of what you say God said?

Do you know what a "DOUBLE STANDARD" is?


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[Biblewriter]

When I was in Israel around eight or so years ago, I didn't even see one brothel. I admit that I did not see the whole city, but I was not there as a part of a guided tour, and my only guide was a Palestinian. This man told me he was well treated by the government, but was treated very badly by the other Palestinians because he had made peace with the government.

If the claims about sex slavery being tolerated in Israel are true, it is truly deplorable, but I find them very hard to believe.

I am an ardent dispensationalist, but I do not imagine that the Israeli government is good, or that it is deserving of God's protection. But I know from many explicit Bible prophecies that Israel will eventually repent. I have already discussed this in this thread. But I have personally seen too much and have heard too many first hand accounts to even begin to believe the anti-zionist propaganda.

As to bias in the news, I have personally witnessed events that were grossly mis-reported in the main stream news. I even pointed out things that were happening to a reporter and cameraman on the scene, and was told that it would not be appropriate to show such things.

 

[JDS]

TLF,

You
"My, my, my . . . how woefully uninformed you demonstrate yourself to be about the very nation you so vehemently support and defend . . . either that, or you are being deliberate disengenuous and attempting to cast dispersions on another who simply has reported the COLD HARD FACTS of the matter.

Which is iti?

Are you truly unaware of the 1 BILLION DOLLAR White Slavery Trade that is a burgeoning industry in Israel?

Maybe you should become better informed about Israel before you return to this thread . .. I am sure you realize what such comments as you made above make you look like, especially when confronted with the facts:......."

All your quotes from news sources are irrelevant to the topic and if you cannot stay on subject, I will not continue my conversation with you. The charge you make is that dispensationlists are racist because we believe that the bible teaches that God has prophecied in his word through history that he will restore Israel to the land nationally and then later convert them. Then you object to my beginning at the very start of the whole scenario and establishing the biblical reason for God to establish the nation in the first place.
No discussion from the standpoint of dispensationalism can be considered by a dispensationists without a treatment of the unconditional covenants of God. This is what you call irrelevant.
Dispensationalists, especially this one, does not have their views on theology established by the news media or even current human events. Dispensationists take their position on Israel from the promises God made to them in his covenants, which are legal and binding documents, sworn to and confirmed by an oath from the highest and most holy person in time or eternity, God himself.
It does not matter how evil the current Israel is or how bad they will become. No dispensationalist is in support of bad and wicked behaviour and would condemn it (The mainstream media is not trustworthy, IMO, and I do not believe your reports) but we are on the side of God in his purpose in his redemptive plan that includes the nation of Israel in her promised land and her eventual conversion. If that falls under the definition of someones idea of racism, I gladly plead guilty, but it is not racism except in the mind of ones like you.

The covenants of God with Israel are probably the main reason for one to take the position of the dispesationalists. We believe every action of God is with these covenant promises in view including the miraculous preservation of the Jews in every nation that were driven to in AD 70 and their reestablishment as a nation among the nations ofthe world some 1900 years later. He promised both their dispersion from the land and their regathering in the palestinian covenant. He is keeping that promise even as we speak.

Maybe you should become better informed about God's revealed purposes and realize that there is a satanic opposition that you are witnessing through current events.

God made 4 unconditional covenants with this people. He called them covenants of promise. He graciously has made us gentiles partakes in those promises because he has made no covenants with any of us in which he has promised salvation. You will have to excuse me then if I am partial to the Jews through whom God saved me and gave me life and through whom he is working out further redemptive purposes.

I do not have the time to answer your other points now.

Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Ro 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

Why is it important that we were made partakers in their promises?

1 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets (who are Jews, every one), Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Israel will be saved also when Jesus comes again in glory and it will be a full and national salvation. All does mean all!

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant (This is a reference to the New Covenant in which made the promise to save every single one of them, see Je 31:31-34) unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


Dispensationalists do not believe Israel is better than anyone else or superior but we do believe they are the instrument God has decided to use to save the world and we are in total agreement with him without any opposition at all!

That is not Racism!

 

[Markea]

The RACIST root and fruit of Dispensationalism..? ? ?

What a joke..

Well, considering that the thread was started by a person who upholds catholic doctrine.. where they teach amillennialism.. it's understandable.

I'd be calling people racists too if I had to hold to amillennialism.. lol

But hey.. this is a free forum right..

Say on..

Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, and he spoke of the dispensation of grace that was given to him and the apostles..

Paul also warned Christians (in Rome no less) to not be IGNORANT of the mystery concerning Israel.. how that they are blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles come in..

Many professing Christians simply IGNORE what the apostle to the Gentiles tells them not to ignore, and so it's no wonder that they're wise in their own conceits..

That's the true root and fruit of this conversation.. ignoring the truth of the word of God.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Are you truly unaware of the 1 BILLION DOLLAR White Slavery Trade that is a burgeoning industry in Israel?

So much for being a "Light" to the Nations.

Ezekiel 22:18 "Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to Me; they [are] all bronze, tin, iron, and lead, in the midst of a furnace; they have become dross from silver. 19 "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: 'Because you have all become dross, therefore behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. 20 '[As men] gather silver, bronze, iron, lead, and tin into the midst of a furnace, to blow fire on it, to melt [it;] so I will gather [you] in My anger and in My fury, and I will leave [you there] and melt you. 21 'Yes, I will gather you and blow on you with the fire of My wrath, and you shall be melted in its midst. 22 'As silver is melted in the midst of a furnace, so shall you be melted in its midst; then you shall know that I, the LORD, have poured out My fury on you.' "

Reve 16:8 Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.

 

[Markea]

The nation of Israel will go through great tribulation, and according to Zechariah... two thirds will be cut off and will die.. the others will be taken through the fire..

It's going to get really bad before Israel is born again as a nation.. although that's what will happen..

It has nothing to do with racism, but rather the truth and faitfulness of God's word concerning that Nation.

 

[Oye11]

When I was in Israel around eight or so years ago, I didn't even see one brothel. I admit that I did not see the whole city, but I was not there as a part of a guided tour, and my only guide was a Palestinian. This man told me he was well treated by the government, but was treated very badly by the other Palestinians because he had made peace with the government.

If the claims about sex slavery being tolerated in Israel are true, it is truly deplorable, but I find them very hard to believe.

I am an ardent dispensationalist, but I do not imagine that the Israeli government is good, or that it is deserving of God's protection. But I know from many explicit Bible prophecies that Israel will eventually repent. I have already discussed this in this thread. But I have personally seen too much and have heard too many first hand accounts to even begin to believe the anti-zionist propaganda.

As to bias in the news, I have personally witnessed events that were grossly mis-reported in the main stream news. I even pointed out things that were happening to a reporter and cameraman on the scene, and was told that it would not be appropriate to show such things.

Thanks for sharing this biblewriter. And I`d never question your sincerety and status as a true Christian. I`d like to point out though that the fact that you never saw a brothel on a Holy Land tour doesn`t tell us a lot. Brothels aren`t typically going to have neon signs but are converted apartments, customers attracted through word of mouth and print advertising. In fact here is an excerpt from a Frommers article, a travel service whose last interest is "anti-Zionist propaganda." Regarding Tel Aviv they write "A look at the back of some of the free tourist magazines distributed throughout town, and you'll figure out that the city also hosts a thriving sex industry. To an idealistic kibbutznik, an Arab Israeli from Nazareth, or an observant Jew from Jerusalem's Mea Shearim District, the mere mention of Tel Aviv can conjure up an image of Gomorrah in its worst depravity."

http://www.frommers.com/destinations/telaviv/0089010001.html

Yep, I think it`s fair to say that the Western mainstream media is reporting accurately on this one, and if anything is under selling given the U.S./British ties to the nation. Just accept this one and fit it into your eschatology...

 

[Biblewriter]

Thanks for sharing this biblewriter. And I`d never question your sincerety and status as a true Christian. I`d like to point out though that the fact that you never saw a brothel on a Holy Land tour doesn`t tell us a lot. Brothels aren`t typically going to have neon signs but are converted apartments, customers attracted through word of mouth and print advertising. In fact here is an excerpt from a Frommers article, a travel service whose last interest is "anti-Zionist propaganda." Regarding Tel Aviv they write "A look at the back of some of the free tourist magazines distributed throughout town, and you'll figure out that the city also hosts a thriving sex industry. To an idealistic kibbutznik, an Arab Israeli from Nazareth, or an observant Jew from Jerusalem's Mea Shearim District, the mere mention of Tel Aviv can conjure up an image of Gomorrah in its worst depravity."

http://www.frommers.com/destinations/telaviv/0089010001.html

Yep, I think it`s fair to say that the Western mainstream media is reporting accurately on this one, and if anything is under selling given the U.S./British ties to the nation. Just accept this one and fit it into your eschatology...

I have zero problem fitting this into my existing eschatological view without any modification whatsoever.

I have already repeatedly stated in this sub-forum that Israel in its present state is not fit for the protection of God, and will soon undergo the worst time any nation on earth has ever experienced. This will not "just happen." It will be specifically brought about by God as a disciplinary action, to finally bring them to the point that they are ready to repent when He returns in power. So no amount of evil proven in Israel would require a change this view.

 

[thereselittleflower]

The RACIST root and fruit of Dispensationalism..? ? ?

What a joke..

Well, considering that the thread was started by a person who upholds catholic doctrine.. where they teach amillennialism.. it's understandable.

I'd be calling people racists too if I had to hold to amillennialism.. lol

THANK YOU for you tacit admission that Dispenationalism is RACIST!



You see, you are simply justifying the RACIST ideology and teachings of Dispensationalism because you believe God condons it.

Again, the REASONS why one is racist are immaterial to whether or not one is racist in the first place.


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[thereselittleflower]

TLF,

You

"My, my, my . . . how woefully uninformed you demonstrate yourself to be about the very nation you so vehemently support and defend . . . either that, or you are being deliberate disengenuous and attempting to cast dispersions on another who simply has reported the COLD HARD FACTS of the matter.

Which is iti?

Are you truly unaware of the 1 BILLION DOLLAR White Slavery Trade that is a burgeoning industry in Israel?

Maybe you should become better informed about Israel before you return to this thread . .. I am sure you realize what such comments as you made above make you look like, especially when confronted with the facts:......."​

All your quotes from news sources are irrelevant to the topic and if you cannot stay on subject, I will not continue my conversation with you.

ROFLOL!

Please JDS, PLEASE feel free to leave my thread at any time! You are more than welcome to leave and to take your double standards with you!

YOU chose to respond to someone else's posting on this fact.

Now that YOU don't like your ignorance or disengenuous argumentaiton (I am not sure really which it is) being shown for what it is, YOU insist that I stay "on topic" though YOU are the one who has tried repeatedly to take this thread OFF topic!

Hypocrisy at its finest!

Being shown to be either so blatantly ignorant or disengenuous is difficult to deal with I know, but this isn't you thread, so if you don't want to have this continue, either quite making such incrediblely ignorant/deliberately false statements and arguments and become informed regarding the subject you make yourself a self-stylized expert on, or don't bother posting.

I am fine with whichever option you choose.

The charge you make is that dispensationlists are racist because we believe that the bible teaches that God has prophecied in his word through history that he will restore Israel to the land nationally and then later convert them.

No, that is NOT what I said.

Please start all over again from the beginning so you can make intelligent responses. This is a strawman, alogical fallacy that seeks to divert attention away from the actual argument by substituting another argument in its place and then proceeding to dismantal the false argument substituted and then to treat that successful attack on the FALSE argument as though one had succesful attacked the REAL argument.

No dice, just more of the same old, same old. Nothing new from you JDS.

Then you object to my beginning at the very start of the whole scenario and establishing the biblical reason for God to establish the nation in the first place.
No discussion from the standpoint of dispensationalism can be considered by a dispensationists without a treatment of the unconditional covenants of God. This is what you call irrelevant.

The REASONS are IRRELEVANT. The REASONS do not make what is RACIST BY DEFINITION, no longer racist.'

YOU are making the illogical argument that the REASON can make something that would normally be considered racist, NON-RACIST, simply because of the REASON for holding such views.

That is illogical nonsense!

Dispensationalists do not believe Israel is better than anyone else or superior but we do believe they are the instrument God has decided to use to save the world and we are in total agreement with him without any opposition at all!

That is not Racism!

Again, the same STRAWMAN argument we saw above, the substitution of the STRAWMAN for what I actually argued, making the argument based on the STRAWMAN IRRELEVANT to the discussion I introduced.

Again, the teaching that the non-Jewish races must be purged from the land so that the Jews may be given preferential treatment in possession of that land is RACIST BY DEFINITION.

The REASON is immaterial to the definition!


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[holdon]

Again, the teaching that the non-Jewish races must be purged from the land so that the Jews may be given preferential treatment in possession of that land is RACIST BY DEFINITION.

I guess you could accuse God of racism then:


Deut.7:1When Jehovah thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and shall cast out many nations from before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou,
7:2and when Jehovah thy God shall give them up before thee and thou shalt smite them, then shalt thou utterly destroy them: thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them.
7:3And thou shalt make no marriages with them: thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor take his daughter for thy son;
7:4for he will turn away thy son from following me, and they will serve other gods, and the anger of Jehovah will be kindled against you, and he will destroy thee quickly.
7:5But thus shall ye deal with them: ye shall break down their altars, and shatter their statues, and hew down their Asherahs, and burn their graven images with fire.
7:6For a holy people art thou unto Jehovah thy God: Jehovah thy God hath chosen thee to be unto him a people for a possession, above all the peoples that are upon the face of the earth.
7:7Not because ye were more in number than all the peoples, hath Jehovah been attached to you and chosen you, for ye are the fewest of all the peoples;
7:8but because Jehovah loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath Jehovah brought you out with a powerful hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

However, with privilege comes responsibility:


Deut. 8:19 And it shall be, if thou do at all forget Jehovah thy God, and go after other gods, and serve them, and bow down to them, I testify against you this day that ye shall utterly perish.
8:20 As the nations which Jehovah is causing to perish before you, so shall ye perish; because ye would not hearken unto the voice of Jehovah your God.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I guess you could accuse God of racism then:

If one were to believe Dispensationalists, then yes, one would have to say that God is racist.

However, I have already presented the argument to answer what you just said above, and what you present in your post, in another post in this thread.


I will reproduce it here for you again:



God can exercise any perrogative He wishes. He was dealing with nations and using the Jews to exact His judgement upon nations.

He was not telling the Jews to treat those they lived side by side with differently than they treated theirselves. They were to treat the non-Jews the same as they treated themselves.
God was not racist.

In fact for those who operate under the illusion that the State of Israel is merely following the commands given by God to separate from other peoples, etc, here is a command of God's that has direct bearing on how we atre to view and judge how the State of Israel is treating the Palestinians and non-Jews in their midst - this clear command in Ezekiel 47:21-23:

"You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of israel. 22 You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the aliens who have settled among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native born Israelites; along with you they to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. In whatever tribe the alien settles, there you are to give him his inheritance, " declares the Sovereign Lord."​

As someone else said in another place:

"Israel was NEVER an exclussive Jewish State."​

So much for The State of Israel only doing what the Jews were commanded to do. So much for the State of Israel supposedly being made by God to be an exlcusive Jewish State.

All teaching, opinions, support, ect to the contrary are AGAINST the clear DECLARATION above by GOD HIMSELF.

Now, you are faced with a dilemna, and for the sake of exploring this dilemna let's assume that the dispensationalist position of a re-established Nation of Israel is correct, though by no means to I even begin to agree with this.

So, exploring the dilemna - If God is reistablishing a State for the Jewish people, purging its land of all other races so the Jewish people can live in peace and safety as Darby and dispensationalism claims, then God is contradicting His OWN COMMAND to the Jewish people to treat the NON JEWS just the same as they treat themselves, to be given the land along with the Jews, that they are to be considered as native born Israelites, they are to be given an inheritance right along with the tribes of Israel.

So, since this is the CLEAR DELCARATION of GOD regarding the ownership of land and treatement of non-Jews in the Land promised to Abraham, then God obviously hasn't called or planned for the PURGING, PURIFYING FROM the land all races so the Jews can possess it in peace and safety.

God is not a liar.

God does not contradict Himself.

The racist ideology of dispenationalism is clearly not from God.

It is from the racist errors of Darby and those who followed him.

So, the is obviously not at all about God exercising His perrrogatives in the affairs of men.

It is about men who have abused the word of God to their own racist purposes.

So, you see, no, God is not a racist.

Dispenationalism tries to paint God as racist, then hide that fact under the guise of "this is what God has decided according to His perrogatives", in order to justify their own racism.

But, given how God commanded the Jews to treat the aliens, non-Jews, in their midst the exact same way as themselves, it obviously stands in stark and grave contradiction to the claims of dispenstionalism, and its founders such as Darby, that God plans to PURGE from the land all Non-Jewish races so the Jews can have preferential treatment regarding its possession and their rights.

God is not a racist.

Man is the racist, and it is man who is trying to paint God is his own image to justify his sin.


.

 

[holdon]

If one were to believe Dispensationalists, then yes, one would have to say that God is racist.

Sorry, but I didn't see a reference to "dispensationalist" in Deuteronomy. So, do you agree that God chose Israel from among all peoples and also that He wanted those 7 other nations in Canaan utterly destroyed? Yes or no?

Now, you are faced with a dilemna, and for the sake of exploring this dilemna let's assume that the dispensationalist position of a re-established Nation of Israel is correct, though by no means to I even begin to agree with this.

.

I think it is not only the "dispensationalist position" that there will be a re-established Israel in the Land. It is God's position:

Deut.30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt take them to heart among all the nations whither Jehovah thy God hath driven thee,
30:2 and shalt return to Jehovah thy God, and shalt hearken to his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy sons, with all thy heart and with all thy soul;
30:3 that then Jehovah thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will gather thee again from all the peoples whither Jehovah thy God hath scattered thee.
30:4 Though there were of you driven out unto the end of the heavens, from thence will Jehovah thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee; 30:5 and Jehovah thy God will bring thee into the land that thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
30:6 And Jehovah thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
30:7 And Jehovah thy God will put all these curses on thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, who have persecuted thee.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Sorry, but I didn't see a reference to "dispensationalist" in Deuteronomy.

So what? It is how dispensationalists misuse it that is the issue.

So, do you agree that God chose Israel from among all peoples and also that He wanted those 7 other nations in Canaan utterly destroyed? Yes or no?

]

You are following a rabbit trail. The above has nothing to do with the issues I have raised in this thread and I have already explained why - TWICE!

Have you actually bothered to read my posts? Or are you simply making knee jerk reactions that reveal you aren't deailing with my actual arguments and evidence at all?

If you ignore the arguments and evidences I am providing, then you enter into an entirely illogical response based on logical fallacies of strawman, and ignores facts in evidence.

I think it is not only the "dispensationalist position" that there will be a re-established Israel in the Land. It is God's position:

Deut.30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt take them to heart among all the nations whither Jehovah thy God hath driven thee,
30:2 and shalt return to Jehovah thy God, and shalt hearken to his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy sons, with all thy heart and with all thy soul;
30:3 that then Jehovah thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will gather thee again from all the peoples whither Jehovah thy God hath scattered thee.
30:4 Though there were of you driven out unto the end of the heavens, from thence will Jehovah thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee; 30:5 and Jehovah thy God will bring thee into the land that thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
30:6 And Jehovah thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
30:7 And Jehovah thy God will put all these curses on thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, who have persecuted thee.

Again, as I have said twice before, for the sake of argument, let us assume that dispensationalists are right when they say that God is going to return the Jews to the land again, even though I don't agree with that claim.

But for the sake of argument let's ASSUME this claim is true. . .

Show me, in the above, where it says that God COMMANDS and MANDATES that when they return, that they are to destroy all races from the land?

Instead, one of the last commands given them regarding the land was the verse I provided twice now and which you have utterly ignored, as all other dispenationalists have done so in this thread . . Once again, and I will enlarge it so it can't possibly be missed:

Ezekiel 47:21-23:

"You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of israel. 22 You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the aliens who have settled among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native born Israelites; along with you they to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. In whatever tribe the alien settles, there you are to give him his inheritance, " declares the Sovereign Lord."​

Obviously, God has not called for the Jews to purge any race from the land today.


However, Dispenationalism, through Darby and others, HAS called for the non-Jewish races to be PURGED from the land today.


Obviously, Dispenationalism is in grave error and is racist in its root and fruit.


.

 

[Notrash]

Dispensationalists do not believe Israel is better than anyone else or superior but we do believe they are the instrument God has decided to use to save the world and we are in total agreement with him without any opposition at all! That is not Racism!

Concerning the human trafficing.
One only needs to google Israel, tel aviv, brothel to get a picture of the human traficing coming out of mostly eastern europe into Israel, Dubai, Canada, Nyc and I'm sure other locations. In Israel, prostitution IS not illegal(contrary to what biblewriter said) but being an illegal immigrant is punished. Thus the brothels are kept behind closed doors because if caught on an open street, they are deported as illegal immigrant, not arrested for prostitution. Only recently the laws against human trafficing were established to combat the activity. It's reported that the russian mafia has the connections and orchestrates the transactions but once in that country they are purchased by 'owners'. I think we would be naive to not consider that there is money under the table to lawmakers to keep the blind eye.

It is talmudic Judaism (and also talmudic Islam) that is racist. They teach and believe that 1000 people of another race are not worth one fingernail of their own race. Littleflower has brought some new information about Darby's views into view which again support the idea that the theological system has it's roots in racist zionism. It's new information for me, but it doesnt' surprise me considering the amount of jewish elitist activity in Europe at that time.


JDS said:

but we do believe they are the instrument God has decided to use to save the world and we are in total agreement with him without any opposition at all!

I really thought that saving the world had already happened and was what the cross of Christ was about. John 3:16. etc..etc.. Are you sure your not applying prophecies about Christ and his finished work through some man made doctine to a similarly man made invasion of Palestine.? This is How dispensational futurism diminishes the cross and finished work of Christ. The world HAS been saved. Those whom HE presently elects to enter into HIS salvation will and do inheirit the promises and eternal new heavens and new earth.

1. Concerning Romans 11. Why did Paul wish that he could be cut off for his kindred of the flesh (rom9) if they would all be saved in the future? That's one I truly wonder.

The phrase: "All Israel will be saved' was a traditional phrase that rabbi's used during the first century.
http://www.vineyardboise.org/publications/study_guides/romans/romans_study_19.pdf

Ancient rabbis frequently made the statement that “all Israel will be saved” – but then quickly added all the categories of Jews that would not make the cut. So what they actually meant was, “All Israel, as a whole (but certainly not every individual) will be saved.”

Thus when Paul says "all Israel will be saved" he's referring to those who have made the cut by Gods election and faith in Christ which now includes those elected and called of other nations. (Gentile converts) He builds up the remnant, elect of Israel for 2 previous chapters. Rom 11 is not in my opinion echatological or prophetic. It is talking of the then present remaining people in Jerusalem and Judea and the ingrafting of gentile faithful into the "all Israel who would be saved".
Obviously, you and other dispys won't agree because this is an anchor section of futurist interpretation for dispensationalists, but at least you have heard a different interpretation. ​

The quote from Isaiah 59 follows vs 26. Dispy's attribute this to the future nation of Israel. I would attribute it to the new birth and the work of Christ having made the sacrifice once for all (according to Hebrews) especially in light of the previous verses in Isaiah 59 which talk of the arm of the Lord and the Intercession of Christ. But assuming this is attributed to future...
What then are the rules of application and determination that Dispensationalists use to distinguish between old testament prophecies that are attributed to the old jewish economy and it's ending (around 70 AD) and this future jewish economy? How do they distinguish which scriptures apply to which one?

For example Dan 9 seems obviously fulfilled and is refered to by Jesus that his disciples who are standing there will see it's fulfillment. But Dispys refer to this as unfulfilled and yet future.
The Isaiah 59 passage that is used by Paul is another one. Why is this still a presently futuristic application rather than a past futuristic application that was fulfilled with Christ?
At what point in a Dispensationalist outlook will Isaiah 53 become fulfilled? Or do they agree that it has been fulfilled?
If the disciples attribute the kingdom of David to the Kingdom of Peace and of Christ, why do dispensationalist not agree with them????

Anyhow, I could go on.... but I'm wondering... Where are those seperating guidelines and rules of application written down so that I could see them.? I mean is it everything before Danial is referring to Christ, and everything after Danial refers to the future economy?? Or is it just pick and choose?

And again, How do you consider a future restoration of the jews if EZ 12 says that visions and prophecies will have a short term fulfillment, and how Paul quotes Isaiah where he says that the Lord will do a short work upon the earth?.... Etc..etc.

not rash.

 

[thereselittleflower]

but we do believe they (Israel) are the instrument God has decided to use to save the world and we are in total agreement with him without any opposition at all!

It seems Notrash, that JDS thinks that Chrsit is not the savior of the world. It appears he thinks that Israel is.

And so the errors of dispenationalism continue . . . .

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[holdon]

So what? It is how dispensationalists misuse it that is the issue.

So, how exactly do dispensationalist misuse this passage from Deuteronomy?

However, Dispenationalism, through Darby and others, HAS called for the non-Jewish races to be PURGED from the land today.

??? Where do you get that from? Per your quote of Darby, he said: "It will be done by the power of Christ in favour of His people re-established by His goodness." So, he didn't call for anybody to do anything in that regard. You're misrepresenting.

 

[JDS]

<staff edit>
You have not proven your case against dispensationalists and your op lacks any teeth. You assume dispensationalists endorse bad conduct from Israel just because we interpret the Bible literally and believe Israel is occupying their land as a nation by divine providence. Then you ask us to believe the mainstream media as if they always tell the truth. You make many false accusations against dispensationalists and offer no proof for them.

Some statements from your op.
What would you think of a religious sect that taught that there is one race that is by nature superior, and another race that is by nature inferior?

This is Williamson&#8217;s opening statement and he makes no attempt to provide documentation for it. Someone who prides herself in being a dispensationalist for 20 years, such as yourself, should immediately question this statement. The fact that you don&#8217;t makes me question whether you tell the truth all the time. You of all people should know that no dispensationalists have ever made a statement that Israel is chosen by God because of their superiority. It is a ridiculous comment and is plainly dishonest. I have previously stated why God chose Israel. It is the only nation on earth that God personally and miraculously brought into existence and made covenants with.

Williamson again,
&#8220;And suppose that this sect taught that the superior race has a divine right to dispossess members of the inferior race and take their properties without compensation, and to ethnically cleanse those who resist this expropriation, using violence if necessary?&#8221;

He is speaking of dispensationalists. Still no documentation for such a dishonest claim. I quoted a passage that says God will dispossess the inhabitants if there is any dispossessing to do. There was no response.

Williamson:
&#8220;And suppose that this sect claimed 70,000,000 adherents in the world's most powerful nation, and had a stranglehold on the foreign policy of that nation, so that the military and financial might of that nation was directed toward the goal of helping the superior race and suppressing the inferior race?&#8221;

He does not bother to tell us how they have a strangle hold on foreign policy. This is empty rhetoric designed to arouse the gullible.

Quote:
&#8220;Welcome to the wonderful world of American dispensationalism. Dispensationalists, who are found in many fundamentalist and evangelical denominations, follow the theological beliefs of John Nelson Darby, C. I. Scofield and Hal Lindsey, who taught that ethnic Jews constitute a superior race who are destined to take over Palestine, then the entire Middle East and finally the world.&#8221;
I have been a dispensationalist for nearly as long as I have been a Christian and that is more years than you, TLF, and I have never heard such a claim by any fundamentalist or dispensationalist and I have known many, many of the more well known among them. Anyone can read the notes in the Scofield Bible and he will never find such a claim. I do not know about Mr. Lindsey or Mr. Darby but he did not provide any quotes so it is just more empty rhetoric.

Mr Williamson states;
Having made these disclaimers, it must be admitted that the modern dispensational movement produces a lot of rhetoric and propaganda against the Arab peoples that can only be described as racist.

He then cites this as proof;
&#8220;For instance, an article on the web site of Cutting Edge Ministries of Attleboro, Massachusetts, in an article entitled "White Hot Genocidal Arab Hatred of Israel and All Jews is Setting the Stage for End of the Age Fulfillment of Prophecy," contains this white hot denunciation of the Arabs: "As Arabs armies advanced toward the heart of Europe, they wantonly killed, raped, and pillaged entire villages and cities. This is the true Arab, and please do not ever forget it."

No link to the article given. No context to check! Empty rhetoric!

I doubt the Grahams would agree with being called dispensationalists!

I am not wasting anymore time on this article. It is nothing more than an opinion piece and not even worth anyone&#8217;s time. He certainly hasn&#8217;t proven that dispensationalists are racist, he has just asserted that they are.

 

[JDS]

I really thought that saving the world had already happened and was what the cross of Christ was about. John 3:16. etc..etc.. Are you sure your not applying prophecies about Christ and his finished work through some man made doctine to a similarly man made invasion of Palestine.? This is How dispensational futurism diminishes the cross and finished work of Christ. The world HAS been saved. Those whom HE presently elects to enter into HIS salvation will and do inheirit the promises and eternal new heavens and new earth.

You have not followed my comments very well natrash. I stated the reasons God brought Israel into existence. I also made reference to the idolatry of the nations that learned, adopted, and then carried the false and satanic religion from Babel into all the world. It was my assertion that God brought Israel into existence to preserve the highway of the seed of the woman who would be the saviour of the world, whom God loves (Jn 3:16). He is Jesus Christ!

God has a plan. The Jews and the Arabs are included in it. He is prosecuting it flawlessly. I am thankful he has let me in on it and has taught me much about it.

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

I suggest you read my comments so you can make intelligent contributions!