A Serious Concern I have about Dispensationalism

Notrash · Sep 8, 2007

Biblewriter said:
Again, I must speak generally because this computer is borrowed and there are others who want to use it.

I was startled at the comment about "an imagined coming Jewish Messiah." This is probably not an exact quote, but it was something like this.

Anyone who cannot see another coming of Messiah is simply being wilfully blind. There are VERY MANY scriptures that speak about this coming in very explicit terms that cannot in any way be even pretended to have been fulfilled.

These range all the way from the unfulfilled prediction of the path the Assyrian will follow in Isaiah 10 through the borders and division of the land in Ezekiel 47-48 to the opening of heaven and coming in glory in the Revelation.

And how will "THE MESSIAH" be known? There are only 2 verses in the old testament that use the term Messiah. Both are in Dan 9. How will that Messiah be known now that the genological records were destroyed?

If 95% of scripture show that Jesus is the Messiah, having fulfilled his mission (It is finished) and 5% of some scriptures can be interpreted to a future Messiah of some type, do we rearrange the 95% to suite the 5% or do we re-consider the 5% and it's interpretation. Could it be because Christians do not crown him King and Lord of their lives, strain their ear for his voice.. with ready feet to abide and listen??? (preaching to myself at times)

As concerning the millenial reign. Aside from the possiblilty that it is referring to the 'eternal life' reign since no flesh has lived over 1000 years, Why is it that we do not interpret that 1000 years to be 'the day of the lord' using Peters principle of 1000 years is as a day.??? We are so apt and insistant to use the day with the lord is as 1000 years, but why not the obverse? Is he not King of Peace now? Is there not internal peace within the believer?

Those things being said, my current perspective is that there will be a similar judgement on the whole earth that occured to Jerusalem. This coincides with Israel and Jersualem so often being used as a type of the church and the world. This may or may not include similar oppression of the vipers, which is how the world is now progressing. Most of the world is under dominion of the monied elite/zionist Pharisees. Most but a remnant in the U.S and various countries who would be constitutionalists and most of the Arab countries. Iraq is falling to the paper based money and perhaps Afghanastan has also.
But even so, It is the Christians duty to work against that oppression and against the "Vipers". Their influence in the U.S. continues onward. I would concede that there may be prophecies in the OT that could refer to the final judgement of earth, but I still presently have a 'a-millenial or pan-millenial view. And there are MANY who view Revelation as being written before the desolation of Jerusalem. Of this perspective I am considering as how it relates to the rest of Scripture.
How would our interpretations be altered if Revelations was Printed in our Bibles Before the Gospels or right after the book of Acts.
P.S. I am not willfully blind, and much less so than someone who denies Hebrew Parallelisms and yet claims to be a Old testament expert. ??

Peace.

holdon · Sep 8, 2007

Notrash said:
And how will "THE MESSIAH" be known? There are only 2 verses in the old testament that use the term Messiah. Both are in Dan 9. How will that Messiah be known now that the genological records were destroyed?

If 95% of scripture show that Jesus is the Messiah, having fulfilled his mission (It is finished) and 5% of some scriptures can be interpreted to a future Messiah of some type, do we rearrange the 95% to suite the 5% or do we re-consider the 5% and it's interpretation. Could it be because Christians do not crown him King and Lord of their lives, strain their ear for his voice.. with ready feet to abide and listen??? (preaching to myself at times)

As concerning the millenial reign. Aside from the possiblilty that it is referring to the 'eternal life' reign since no flesh has lived over 1000 years, Why is it that we do not interpret that 1000 years to be 'the day of the lord' using Peters principle of 1000 years is as a day.??? We are so apt and insistant to use the day with the lord is as 1000 years, but why not the obverse? Is he not King of Peace now? Is there not internal peace within the believer?

Those things being said, my current perspective is that there will be a similar judgement on the whole earth that occured to Jerusalem. This coincides with Israel and Jersualem so often being used as a type of the church and the world. This may or may not include similar oppression of the vipers, which is how the world is now progressing. Most of the world is under dominion of the monied elite/zionist Pharisees. Most but a remnant in the U.S and various countries who would be constitutionalists and most of the Arab countries. Iraq is falling to the paper based money and perhaps Afghanastan has also.
But even so, It is the Christians duty to work against that oppression and against the "Vipers". Their influence in the U.S. continues onward. I would concede that there may be prophecies in the OT that could refer to the final judgement of earth, but I still presently have a 'a-millenial or pan-millenial view.
Peace.

So, now a 1000 years is eternal life? And Satan to be bound for a 1000 years and then released (for a little while) must then mean that "eternal life" is not really eternal?

Notrash · Sep 8, 2007

holdon said:
So, now a 1000 years is eternal life? And Satan to be bound for a 1000 years and then released (for a little while) must then mean that "eternal life" is not really eternal?

Present perspectives are apt to be refined. Some things seem to be more written in stone.

Biblewriter · Sep 8, 2007

Notrash said:
And how will "THE MESSIAH" be known? There are only 2 verses in the old testament that use the term Messiah. Both are in Dan 9. How will that Messiah be known now that the genological records were destroyed?

If 95% of scripture show that Jesus is the Messiah, having fulfilled his mission (It is finished) and 5% of some scriptures can be interpreted to a future Messiah of some type, do we rearrange the 95% to suite the 5% or do we re-consider the 5% and it's interpretation. Could it be because Christians do not crown him King and Lord of their lives, strain their ear for his voice.. with ready feet to abide and listen??? (preaching to myself at times)

As concerning the millenial reign. Aside from the possiblilty that it is referring to the 'eternal life' reign since no flesh has lived over 1000 years, Why is it that we do not interpret that 1000 years to be 'the day of the lord' using Peters principle of 1000 years is as a day.??? We are so apt and insistant to use the day with the lord is as 1000 years, but why not the obverse? Is he not King of Peace now? Is there not internal peace within the believer?

Those things being said, my current perspective is that there will be a similar judgement on the whole earth that occured to Jerusalem. This coincides with Israel and Jersualem so often being used as a type of the church and the world. This may or may not include similar oppression of the vipers, which is how the world is now progressing. Most of the world is under dominion of the monied elite/zionist Pharisees. Most but a remnant in the U.S and various countries who would be constitutionalists and most of the Arab countries. Iraq is falling to the paper based money and perhaps Afghanastan has also.
But even so, It is the Christians duty to work against that oppression and against the "Vipers". Their influence in the U.S. continues onward. I would concede that there may be prophecies in the OT that could refer to the final judgement of earth, but I still presently have a 'a-millenial or pan-millenial view. And there are MANY who view Revelation as being written before the desolation of Jerusalem. Of this perspective I am considering as how it relates to the rest of Scripture.
How would our interpretations be altered if Revelations was Printed in our Bibles Before the Gospels or right after the book of Acts.
P.S. I am not willfully blind, and much less so than someone who denies Hebrew Parallelisms and yet claims to be a Old testament expert. ??

Peace.

This answer is nothing short of outrageous.

Try Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20, for starters. Then look at Matthew 24:27. Then check out Psalms 45:3-5, Micah 1:3-5, Joel 2:20, Joel 3:1-2, Joel 3:9-14, Isaiah 14:24-27, Isaiah 31:8-9, Isaiah 34:5-10, Isaiah 63:1-6, Jeremiah 49:20-22, Habakkuk 3:3-6, Malaciah 3:1-3, Revelation 16:12-16, and Revelation 19:19-21.

Your percentages are all off. More like 40% of the scriptures about the coming of Christ (the Messiah) have not been fulfilled. And most of the scriptures about the future blessing of Israel have not been fulfilled. Look, for instance at Isaiah 10, where we are specifically told that the indignation against His people that dwell in Zion will cease in the destruction of the Assyrians. Compare this with the detailed account of the path the Assyrian will follow in Isaiah 10:28-33. History speaks exceedingly plainly that this is not the path that Sennacherib or any other ancient Assyrian followed through Judea.

Again,look at the explicit description of the future borders of the land in Ezekiel 47 and 48. There is no way to even pretend that this was ever fulfilled. Likewise for Isaiah 4:3-4, Isaiah 11:12-14, Isaiah 19:22-24, Isaiah 49:22-23, Isaiah 66:18-20, Jeremiah 24:7, Jeremiah 31:7-9, Ezekiel 16:53-55, Ezekiel 20:33-38, Ezekiel 25:14, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Ezekiel 37:21-22, Ezekiel 38-39, Zephaniah 2:4-9, Zephaniah 3:11-12, Zechariah 9:13-15, Zechariah 12:6-14, and Micah 5:5-6.

These prophecies, like numerous others, are too numerous and too explicit to escape with the trick of calling them Hebrew parallelisms, or to dismiss by calling them Hebrasims or figures of speach, as others say. Some, I think you are among them, say that these were conditional upon obedience, and that condition was never fulfilled. But my thread on the unfulfilled promise of Israel's repentance reviewed many explicit promises that Israel will eventually be brought to repentance.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 9, 2007

Your percentages are all off. More like 40% of the scriptures about the coming of Christ (the Messiah) have not been fulfilled. And most of the scriptures about the future blessing of Israel have not been fulfilled.

Looks like the Jews will have a loooooong wait then.
Btw, anyone want to discuss the Matt 24 thread?

http://foru.ms/t6053725-matthew-24-and-revelation-study.html

Matthew 9:3 And lo, certain of the scribes said within themselves, `This one doth blaspheme/blasfhmei <987>.'

Mark 2:7 `Who this one thus is talking? He is blasheming/blasfhmiaV <988>. Who is able to forgive sins if no one--the God?'

Revelation 16:9 and men were scorched with great heat, and they did blaspheme/eblasfhmhsan <987> (5656) of the Name of God, who hath authority over these scourges, and they did not reform--to give to Him glory.

Micah68 · Sep 9, 2007

Notrash said:
And how will "THE MESSIAH" be known? There are only 2 verses in the old testament that use the term Messiah. Both are in Dan 9. How will that Messiah be known now that the genological records were destroyed?

If 95% of scripture show that Jesus is the Messiah, having fulfilled his mission (It is finished) and 5% of some scriptures can be interpreted to a future Messiah of some type, do we rearrange the 95% to suite the 5% or do we re-consider the 5% and it's interpretation. Could it be because Christians do not crown him King and Lord of their lives, strain their ear for his voice.. with ready feet to abide and listen??? (preaching to myself at times)

As concerning the millenial reign. Aside from the possiblilty that it is referring to the 'eternal life' reign since no flesh has lived over 1000 years, Why is it that we do not interpret that 1000 years to be 'the day of the lord' using Peters principle of 1000 years is as a day.??? We are so apt and insistant to use the day with the lord is as 1000 years, but why not the obverse? Is he not King of Peace now? Is there not internal peace within the believer?

Those things being said, my current perspective is that there will be a similar judgement on the whole earth that occured to Jerusalem. This coincides with Israel and Jersualem so often being used as a type of the church and the world. This may or may not include similar oppression of the vipers, which is how the world is now progressing. Most of the world is under dominion of the monied elite/zionist Pharisees. Most but a remnant in the U.S and various countries who would be constitutionalists and most of the Arab countries. Iraq is falling to the paper based money and perhaps Afghanastan has also.
But even so, It is the Christians duty to work against that oppression and against the "Vipers". Their influence in the U.S. continues onward. I would concede that there may be prophecies in the OT that could refer to the final judgement of earth, but I still presently have a 'a-millenial or pan-millenial view. And there are MANY who view Revelation as being written before the desolation of Jerusalem. Of this perspective I am considering as how it relates to the rest of Scripture.
How would our interpretations be altered if Revelations was Printed in our Bibles Before the Gospels or right after the book of Acts.
P.S. I am not willfully blind, and much less so than someone who denies Hebrew Parallelisms and yet claims to be a Old testament expert. ??

Peace.

John 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished.". With that he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Jesus died Victorious! He came fulfilling all he had come to do. Defeating sin by preforming the ultimate sacrifice. THIS is the main event prophesied in the OT. By faith, man is no longer separated from God, we are living in his presence and all we have to do is call out.

This is my criteria for interpreting and why I have a hard time understanding dispensationalism. I do love looking up all the scripture submitted and studying it especially with all the Biblical resources available today via the Internet. i.e access to the Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew. This has turn into a really interesting discussion.

~Micah

Micah68 · Sep 9, 2007

LittleLambofJesus said:
Looks like the Jews will have a loooooong wait then.
Btw, anyone want to discuss the Matt 24 thread?

http://foru.ms/t6053725-matthew-24-and-revelation-study.html

Matthew 9:3 And lo, certain of the scribes said within themselves, `This one doth blaspheme/blasfhmei <987>.'

Mark 2:7 `Who this one thus is talking? He is blasheming/blasfhmiaV <988>. Who is able to forgive sins if no one--the God?'

Revelation 16:9 and men were scorched with great heat, and they did blaspheme/eblasfhmhsan <987> (5656) of the Name of God, who hath authority over these scourges, and they did not reform--to give to Him glory.

Oh yes, see you on the new thread.

Notrash · Sep 9, 2007

LittleLambofJesus said:
Looks like the Jews will have a loooooong wait then.
Btw, anyone want to discuss the Matt 24 thread?

http://foru.ms/t6053725-matthew-24-and-revelation-study.html

Matthew 9:3 And lo, certain of the scribes said within themselves, `This one doth blaspheme/blasfhmei <987>.'

Mark 2:7 `Who this one thus is talking? He is blasheming/blasfhmiaV <988>. Who is able to forgive sins if no one--the God?'

Revelation 16:9 and men were scorched with great heat, and they did blaspheme/eblasfhmhsan <987> (5656) of the Name of God, who hath authority over these scourges, and they did not reform--to give to Him glory.

Again, these parallels between Revelations and other scriptures give good support are much apreciated. It would be cool to keep them in a file with the revelation verse listed and then other fulfilling verses beneath them. You could add to them as given insight. For example, this verse and it's reference to the scourges could have Isaiah 48 associated with it since it also uses the word scourges Overflowing scourges also has an immediate association in my mind to overspreading abominations in Dan 9:27.

Your percentages are all off. More like 40% of the scriptures about the coming of Christ (the Messiah) have not been fulfilled. And most of the scriptures about the future blessing of Israel have not been fulfilled.

My percentages were/are not intended to be statutory, but do reflect a perspective of OT prophecies having been fulfilled or perhaps annulled as conditional to a 'national repentence' or find their fulfillment in the post cross Church of Christ. So, obviously, we are in disagreement. No surprise.

In the 3 or 4 sections of scripture that have been presented as referring to this future kingdom of God, Isaiah 59, Isaiah 61, Isaiah 28, (and many other discussed in the new testament by the Apostles and Jesus) I am satisfied that they refer to this first coming and even become a support for the fulfillment. Thus I'm not really interested in continuing to do the same to more.

Again, we obviously look through different lenses of different Rules of interpretation. One of the rules of dispensational interpretation is the seperation of the Church and Israel with respect to God's purposes. The problem is that it is a rule that dispensationalists founders have made up and teach their disciples. It is not a rule that is grown from inductive study and subsequent interpretation & application. Thus a dispensationalists reads OT prophecies with the belief in the continued seperation of the recipient of Gods blessings that never really was a seperation. Eph 2 covers this well. This is the need for their postponement of Daniels 70th week and the belief in a single anti-chirst type rather than the spirit that Disbelieves that Christ has come in the flesh (making a sacrifice once for all as Hebrews says)

The law and the Israelites seeking to attain to the law was the barrier of enmity between Jew and the other nations. Eph 2 says that barrier has been broken down.

Again, Pauls principles found in Gal 3 and 4, Ephesians 2 and 3, Most of Romans but especially Rom 9/10 and yes when inductively studied, Rom 11 directly infer that not only are the Promises now given to the seed of Christ, but that they always were given to that seed of Faith, even in the old testament. Gal 3:16 (Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ) Acts and the Gospels agree with this; Matt 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. John 8:37-47, Jesus calls those of the gentic seed of Abraham sons of their father, Satan. Hmmm, how can that be??

Eusebiuses "proof of the Gospel, book 2 sections 39-60, where he quotes the Old testament references to show that the promises were always to the elect of faith within Israel, not genetic Israel. I'm sure others have done similar works. In addition, Paul says that this was Gods true intention from the begining, that 'through you shall all the nations be blessed'. Eph 3:8-13

Another foundational difference is that the meaning of Scripture needs to be discovered as it was first written to it's original audience only before applying any interpretation to our lives today. Dispensationalists and modern prophecy "EXPERTS" such as Hal Lindsey seek to read scripture as if we are the only generation that it pertains to. I dont' know if this is only since 1948, but according to Blackstone who thought the early 1900's could be the first match that starts the fire, it seems as though it has followed dispensational teachers.

An example of this would be to understand that Gabriel meant 490 consecutive years. Then recognizing and believing his supernatural power to foreknow and fulfill his word, we can also expect that power to accomplish salvation unto eternal life, and answer prayer according to His rules and laws of Prayer for the believer. Summed up in: Eph 3:20, Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us.

Rather, a futurist will say that God didn't mean 490 consecutive years and rather than find blessings in it's fulfillment, seek the proposals that have been taught to him in a future fulfillment perspective and single man anti-christ, etc.

I dont' expect you to change your mind easily or even to change your mind at all. You, Biblewriter especially have much reputation and status at stake (especially if you've published a book). But before I would continue to study or refute more OT prophecies concerning 'unfulfilled blessings of genetic, political or religious Israel, you would need to offer a rebuttal to Jesus, Paul and Lukes'(Acts 3:25) perspective that the promises Given to Abraham are to the seed of Abraham, (Jesus) and those of like faith,(Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousneess) according to HIS election and the purposes. Those promises are associated with the Gift of eternal life, but not to a genetic, national or political nation/state.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 9, 2007

Again, these parallels between Revelations and other scriptures give good support are much apreciated. It would be cool to keep them in a file with the revelation verse listed and then other fulfilling verses beneath them. You could add to them as given insight. For example, this verse and it's reference to the scourges could have Isaiah 48 associated with it since it also uses the word scourges Overflowing scourges also has an immediate association in my mind to overspreading abominations in Dan 9:27.

Thanks.
How about the "WHIP" in Nahum which is also related to the word for scourge in Isaiah 28 on Judah/Jerusalem?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Nahum 3:2 A sound of a Whip, And sound of the rattling of a wheel, And of a prancing horse, and of a bounding chariot, Of a horseman mounting. [Isaiah 28 "scourge"]

Reve 16:21 and hail, great as talent weight is descending out of the heaven upon the mankind and blaspheme the mankind the God out of the Scourge/plhghV <4127> of the hail, that great is the scourge/plhgh <4127> of her/it, tremendous.

Luke 12:47 `And that servant, who having known his lord's will, and not having prepared, nor having gone according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes],
48 and he who, not having known, and having done things worthy of stripes/plhgwn <4127>, shall be beaten with few; and to every one to whom much was given, much shall be required from him; and to whom they did commit much, more abundantly they will ask of him.

holdon · Sep 9, 2007

Notrash said:
Again, we obviously look through different lenses of different Rules of interpretation. One of the rules of dispensational interpretation is the seperation of the Church and Israel with respect to God's purposes. The problem is that it is a rule that dispensationalists founders have made up and teach their disciples.

It is not only the dispensationalist founders who make this distinction. It all over the New Testament.

It is not a rule that is grown from inductive study and subsequent interpretation & application.

You really think that dispensationalists are that stupid?

Thus a dispensationalists reads OT prophecies with the belief in the continued seperation of the recipient of Gods blessings that never really was a seperation. Eph 2 covers this well.

Eph 2 speaks of a NEW entity, something that didn't exist before. Clearer separation there couldn't be.

Rather, a futurist will say that God didn't mean 490 consecutive years and rather than find blessings in it's fulfillment, seek the proposals that have been taught to him in a future fulfillment perspective and single man anti-christ, etc.

I would be interested to hear an historicist (or preterist) explain the 490 years....

And for the rest I guess, the promised Land never existed, there was none.... All an illusion. Why was Christ born in Palestine? Never mind.

Notrash · Sep 9, 2007

holdon said:
It is not only the dispensationalist founders who make this distinction.

Click to expand...

A correction should be added to my statement. The distinction of dispensationalists between Church and Israel is based on purpose and promises of God, especially relating to the "land". There is also an underlying difference (although not stated) in the methods of salvation. The purpose of God has been the true church of the eternal gospel of Christ from the foundation of the world. (Eph 3)

It all over the New Testament.

Click to expand...

Well, you knew this was coming after you wrote this probably.
Rom 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
Rom 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
Rom 3:29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,
Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.

Here is an interesting perspective of the Olive tree by a rabii who believes in Christ.
I think their doctrine of faith would fit in with Biblewriter. They come back to a restoration of Messianic Israel and the land. They use Gal; 3:17 to say that the promises have not been annulled. However, they acknowledge that both Jew and Gentile are now one Israel. If this be the case, all born again Belivers...'jew and Gentile, should march on and live in the land of Palestine. And I think that is what they are saying.
http://www.etz-chayim.org/articles/equality-jew-non-jew.html

I don't neccessarily agree with that idea, as I think there are other meanings of Abrahams promises. But that perspective makes more sense to me than a rapture followed by a restoration of Israel by Pharisaic Jews.

You really think that dispensationalists are that stupid? Eph 2 speaks of a NEW entity, something that didn't exist before.

Click to expand...

The 'ecclesia' of God, the 'Israel of God' in Gal 6:16 has existed since Adam/Eve/Abel/Noah, etc... ever since redemption in the seed of the woman has been preached. The Levitical law and tabernacle was added to offer types of Christ that would confirm and prophecy his coming, but obedience to the Levitical Law never saved apart from faith in God. The 10 Commandment Law was added to both convict of sin by not attaining to the law (just as the Rich Young ruler could not recognize and obey Gods voice in Jesus) and just as 'all have sinned and come short of the glory of God] and to offer guides to please and obey God and his voice and commands after the restored relationship with him.

Paul says that the barrier between Israel and Gentiles has been broken down referring to the Levitical law. Jesus fulfilled the types and prophecies of the tabernacle. Thus the jews have no more souce of seperation. BUT, the Leviticle law never saved but rather the personal/individual faith in the reality that the types represented. Jesus also upheld and fulfilled the Law of the Commandments and offers a new commandment, "As I have love you, so love one another". Jesus also says that to obey him is to obey God and thus in a sense becomes the new commandment law. The Gentiles as Paul mentions early in the book of Romans had a law of concience and would be judged by that Law of Conscience. Rom 2:1-16.

Thus, in my perspective, the Ecclesia is still a continuation of the church of God with the same method of Salvation. The Jews needed to believe in the living and future seed (Christ) to be saved and all the church needs to believe in the living and past seed (Christ) to enter into salvation. The Gentiles that Paul is writing to have now come to Jesus (the commander) by faith, and the Jew also come to Jesus (the commander) by faith. The enmity that the Levitical law created has been broken down. When we read that, we think that now Gentiles can come into his fellowship without the levitical law, but rather the opposite is also true. Jews can come freely to salvation without obligation to levitical law that fulfilled it's designed purpose in prophecying Christ.

I would be interested to hear a historicist (or preterist) explain the 490 years....

Click to expand...

William Hales (1747-1831)
"And after the sixty and two weeks, before specified, as the largest division of the 70, was the anointed [leader] cut off judicially, by an iniquitous sentence, in the midst of the one week, which formed the third and last division, and began with our Lord's Baptism, about A.D. 27.--'when he was beginning to be thirty years of age,' and commenced his mission, which lasted three years and half until his crucifixion, about A.D. 31.
"27. During this one week, which ended about A.D. 34 (about the martyrdom of Stephen,) a new covenant was established with many of the Jews, of every class; in the midst of which the Temple sacrifice was virtually abrogated by the all-sufficient sacrifice of the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the [repentant and believing] world."

Here's another.
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/daniel/daniel-09.htm

There are various perspectives of dating the decree in all perspectives of historist/pretertists and futurists. And there are some who feel the 70 weeks ended at the cricifiction, but I personally hold that the 70 weeks started at his annointing and continued through his crucificton, and after he arose and appeared to his disciples and then through the ministry of Jesus in the form of the Holy Spirit, all in Jerusalem first, then judea, then the uttermost parts of the earth.

And for the rest I guess, the promised Land never existed, there was none.... All an illusion. Why was Christ born in Palestine? Never mind.

Click to expand...

To confirm the prophecies for the one who "takes away the sins of the world' as John the Baptist refered to him and John the B did not say, Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of 'Israel' and will lead them to their kingdom on earth, did he?

holdon · Sep 10, 2007

Notrash said:
I don't neccessarily agree with that idea, as I think there are other meanings of Abrahams promises. But that perspective makes more sense to me than a rapture followed by a restoration of Israel by Pharisaic Jews.

If you meant to say that the restoration of Israel will be by Pharisaic Jews, I have no such opinion. Not sure where you would get all this either. But it must be the "inductive" capacity running loose, I guess.

The 'ecclesia' of God, the 'Israel of God' in Gal 6:16 has existed since Adam/Eve/Abel/Noah, etc... ever since redemption in the seed of the woman has been preached.

Why then did Christ predict in His lifetime that He would build (future) His Church from the foundation up?

Thus, in my perspective, the Ecclesia is still a continuation of the church of God with the same method of Salvation.

There is no salvation other than through Christ. I reject the charge that dispensationalism teaches different salvations. But the Church, the building that Christ would build, also called His body, exists only since Pentecost.

There are various perspectives of dating the decree in all perspectives of historist/pretertists and futurists. And there are some who feel the 70 weeks ended at the cricifiction, but I personally hold that the 70 weeks started at his annointing and continued through his crucificton, and after he arose and appeared to his disciples and then through the ministry of Jesus in the form of the Holy Spirit, all in Jerusalem first, then judea, then the uttermost parts of the earth.

But the 70 weeks have been divided by Daniel himself, with specific events. Thus after 7+62=69 weeks, Daniel says the Messiah shall be cut off. This puts then Messiah's death at 69+- weeks. How some can then say, the 70 ended at the crucifixion is unintelligible to me. Further, I think most would agree that the destruction of the city and the sanctuary (Dan 9:26) refers to the events of 70AD. There is much more time than 7 years (1 week) between 34 and 70AD. In addition, it is said in the same verse that the "instability" (ie wars) would go on till the end. Only thereafter do we get to the last week in vs 27. Daniel says that the "he" (whoever you think he is, but it is "he who shall come", which means this "he" wasn't there in 70Ad) confirms an agreement for a week. (this obviously is the 70th week. This lasts till the "consumption". So, no matter how you slice it, Daniel creates a gap between the 69th and the 70th week, with very precise events being predicted.

To confirm the prophecies for the one who "takes away the sins of the world' as John the Baptist refered to him and John the B did not say, Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of 'Israel' and will lead them to their kingdom on earth, did he?

John the B didn't say that all the Christians would have to go to Israel to claim the promise of Abraham either.

Micah68 · Sep 10, 2007

Eusebius, The fourth-century church historian refers to the eyewitness accounts of Josephus to show how these predictions were understood as having been fulfilled by AD 70. (257) Writing the Jewish Wars, Josephus links Daniel's prophecy to the desecration of the temple and destruction of Jerusalem in AD 66-70: 'In the same manner Daniel also wrote concerning the Roman government, and that our country should be made desolate by them.' (258) Josephus specifically associates the desecration of the temple and the activities of Jewish Zealots who, between November of AD 67 and the spring of AD 68, used the temple as a military fortress, executed Jewish opponents inside it and even entered the holiest of holies. (259) He describes how those 'Jews do walk about in the midst of the holy places, at the very time when their hands are still warm with the slaughter of their own countrymen.' (260) Believing God would intervene and deliver them by force, he records how the Zealots invited the Idumean army of some 20,000 troops to help to help defend Jerusalem from the Romans. Instead, they took advantage of the city and plundered it, 'nor did the Idumeans spare anybody...and not the outer Temple was all of it overflowed with blood; and that day, as it came on, they saw eight thousand five-hundred dead bodies there'. (261) Josephus regarded the death of Ananus as the beginning of the of the destruction of Jerusalem, and it is possible that Christians saw in his murder the appointment of apostate high priests like Phannias, the sacrilege Jesus had warned of in Matthew 24. Later, the temple was subsequently defiled once more by the invading Roman army. Josephus describes the scene: 'And now the Romans...brought their ensigns to the Temple and set them near to its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them and there they did make Titus Imperator with the greatest acclamations of joy.' (262)

As a credible first-century eyewitness and historian, Josephus shows conclusively, therefor, how the temple was desecrated on numerous occasions, first by Jewish Zealots, then by the marauding Idumeans and finally by Titus and his Roman army. Whether at the hands of Jews or pagans, with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 the 'Abomination' had indeed brought desolation. John Calvin believe that God 'deserted his Temple, because it was only founded for a time, and was but a shadow, until the Jews so completely violated the whole covenant that no sanctity remained in either the Temple, the nation, or the land itself'. (263)
.....While Jesus repeatedly warned of the destruction of the temple, and was known by his critics to have done so, he never promised that it would ever be rebuilt. (264)

257. Eusebius, 'On the Predictions of Christ', in The Esslesiastical History and the martyrs of Palestine (London: SPCK, 1927), 3.5.4, p. 69; 3.7,pp. 73-74

258. Josephus, Jewish Antiquities in The New Complete Works of Josephus (Grand Rapids: Kregal, 1999), 10.2.7 (276), p.357.

259. Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, 4.5.4 (343),p.823.

260. Ibid., 4.3.10 (162-163), pp. 813-814.

261. Ibid., 4.5.1 (313), p. 821

262. Josephus, Jewish Wars in The New Complete Works of Josephus (Grand Rapids: Kregal, 1999), 6.6.1 (316), p. 900

263. John Calvin, Commentary on the Book of the Prophet Daniel, translated by Thomas Myers, 2 vols. (Grand Rapids: eerdmans, 1948) vol. 2, p. 390.

264. John 2:19; Matt. 26:61; 27:40; Mark 14:59; 15:29.

All of the above taken from 'Christian Zionism, Road map to Armageddon?' by Dr. Rev. Stephen Sizer
vicar of Christ Church, Virginia Water, Surrey, and Chairman of the International Bible Society (UK).

No where in the New Testament does it promise the Jewish temple to be rebuilt...a third time nor does the NT address a 2,000 year 'parenthesis' between its desecration and destruction. but then this gets off on another debate.

holdon · Sep 10, 2007

Micah68 said:
All of the above taken from 'Christian Zionism, Road map to Armageddon?' by Dr. Rev. Stephen Sizer
vicar of Christ Church, Virginia Water, Surrey, and Chairman of the International Bible Society (UK).

No where in the New Testament does it promise the Jewish temple to be rebuilt...a third time nor does the NT address a 2,000 year 'parenthesis' between its desecration and destruction. but then this gets off on another debate.

Instead of listening to these conconctions, let's hear what the bible says:

Mt 24:15 "When therefore ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which is spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in what is a holy place, (he that reads let him understand,)
24:16 then let those who are in Judaea flee to the mountains;"

Isnt' it clear from this passage alone, that when they would see the abomination standing in the holy place, that THEN it would be time to flee, etc..

Therefore it is not "flee etc.. and then see the abomination" (like in 70AD) but the other way around. It would be cruel from Jesus indeed to mislead them, because for those that would have waited till they would see the Romans in the Temple, it was waaay too late. No, in the end, yet to come, the abomination will be in the temple and even the antichrist will take seat there:

2 Thess 2:3 Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because it will not be unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;
2:4 who opposes and exalts himself on hight against all called God, or object of veneration; so that he himself sits down in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
When that happens, it will be time for those in the land to flee and get out of there.

But for 70AD they were warned here:

Luke 21:20
But when ye see Jerusalem encompassed with armies, then know that its desolation is drawn nigh. 21:21 Then let those who are in Judaea flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of it depart out, and those who are in the country not enter into it; 21:22 for these are days of avenging, that all the things that are written may be accomplished. 21:23 But woe to them that are with child and to them who give suck in those days, for there shall be great distress upon the land and wrath upon this people. 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the nations until the times of the nations be fulfilled.

Notrash · Sep 10, 2007

holdon said:
holdon said:

If you meant to say that the restoration of Israel will be by Pharisaic Jews, I have no such opinion. Not sure where you would get all this either. But it must be the "inductive" capacity running loose, I guess.

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Well, lets call this deductive reasoning based on information given.
A. The Jew/Gentile church is now and forevermore without barrier, thus we may as well not even say Jew/Gentile because there is no such differentiation in Christ. The Barrier has been removed; (abolished; Eph 2:14-16) To reinstate the barrier of leivitical law would then no longer be Christ's Church. Paul says that God's glory is in His church through all ages. Eph 3:21. Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

B. The only type of Jew Religion that survived the desolation is Pharisaism. This is according to the Jewish encyclopedia, (the jews themselves) They have (I THINK) most recently been reinstituting the Sanhedrein and other sects which are not much different. This may be the Vipers egg that was 'crushed' in Isaiah 59:5.

THUS: Since the levitical law has been abolished nailed to the cross and saved Jews would not have a need for it since it is abolished, the only people who would reinstate it would be the Pharisee sect. The only people seeking the land are the Pharisee sect. Or the group that believes that the land promises are to the church/Body of Christ. But we both agree that saved Jew/Gentile of the body of Christ should not be marching on Jerusalem. (I think)

Why then did Christ predict in His lifetime that He would build (future) His Church from the foundation up? But the Church, the building that Christ would build, also called His body, exists only since Pentecost.

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I don't know if your putting to much emphasis on from the ground up, it can mean built upon also. But a question that is Good to ask is weather or not by 'upon this rock', Jesus meant Peter's confession that Jesus was the Messiah, Christ, son of God, or if Jesus meant that it was the fact that the Father in heaven had revealed it to Peter, not flesh and blood.(john 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.) (OR both,)

There is no salvation other than through Christ. I reject the charge that dispensationalism teaches different salvations.

Click to expand...

Well, let me ask, Do dispensationalists teach, feel or believe that all of Israelites were "corporately" saved by the actions of the Levite Priests in the temple? Or that all those genetically descended from Israel or Abraham were ever saved as a group in any point in History, or future?

Paul says in Eph 2:19, Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,

This gives some credence to the idea that the present Ecclesia is a continuation of the church of the prophets and apostles. There is a reality to the idea that the body of Christ has new aspects to it, but an argument could also be made that it is only new to the Jews who no longer need to maintain the tabernacle and ordinances.

But the 70 weeks have been divided by Daniel himself, with specific events. Thus after 7+62=69 weeks, Daniel says the Messiah shall be cut off. This puts then Messiah's death at 69+- weeks. How some can then say, the 70 ended at the crucifixion is unintelligible to me.

Click to expand...

Well, Daneil says after the (62+7..69th week) the Messiah shall be cut off, but he doesnt' say when after. The end of the 70th week is definately after 69 weeks, no doubt. Remember, part of inductive study is to realize both what the text does say and also not to assume what it doesnt' say. The text doesn't say that the Messiah would be cut off at the end of the 69th week. Technicality, you might accuse, but this wording sets up the question, What happens after the 69th week while reading verse 25, and that is answered in the first part of vs 26 and 27.

But now lets go back to what the 62'nd week brings in or how it is marked.

25 "Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

Verse 25 says that from the Command to rebuild Jerusalem (which I dont' think had happened yet) until Messiah the Prince.. shall be 69weeks. The 69 weeks ends at the beginning of Messiah the Prince, but not his being cut off. Now why don't we say that the 69 weeks ended at Bethlehem at his Birth? That would make sense to the normal reading of verse 25 alone. But he was not titled Messiah in Bethlehem, but rather Immanuel. So when then did Messiah (which means annointed one) the Prince come into play? Some say during the triumphal entry when the throngs sang Hosahna to the son of David. But the obvious better answer is that Jesus became recognized as 'Messiah, the Prince', "annointed one" at his Baptism and annointing by the Holy Spirit as he confirms in Reading Isaiah 61 passage only a short time later. A "Prince" is a son of the King and God's words out of the Heavens at his Baptism were "this is my Son" Search Philip Mauro on Google for some good analysis of the word Messiah meaning annointed one.

Further, I think most would agree that the destruction of the city and the sanctuary (Dan 9:26) refers to the events of 70AD. There is much more time than 7 years (1 week) between 34 and 70AD.

Click to expand...

Yes, we would be in agreement with vs 26. Thus the covenant with the prince that you propose would have been in 66-73 AD. Some people view it this way. I do not. And YES, there is more than 7 years between 30 AD and 70 AD or even 33 AD to 73 AD; a whole GENERATION of time. Good point.

There is a dividing key in both verses that seperate the 70th 'week' from the later desolations.
In 26 it is the phrase "who is to come" referring to the prince of the people who desolate the city. This seperates the people who come (army that destroys the city and sanctuary) from the cutting off (death) of the Messiah that was within the 70 weeks time period.
In verse 27 it says... on the wing of abominations. That means to me that the abominations (lies and idolatry) are the cause of the eventual desolations. Just like a human arm (wing) usually has a cause to move and act, so also the continued temple sacrifice after God ripped open the vail are part of the idolatry that cause the desolation. Thus there is a seperation of the Idolatry that continue in the temple by use of the term 'wings'. The idolatry does not bring immediate desolation, but because of their continued idolatry desolations are determined "even until it's consummation' Even until the desolations are complete at the end of the war.

It is said that if a person was standing in the center of Jerusalem after the desolation, they would have not know that a city was previously there .

One of they keys to this being Paralellism is the usage of similar words and ideas in both verses. The week in verse 27 coincides with the 70th week. Especially since verse 26 and 27 were written together under the heading of verse 25, both 26 and 27 are connected chronologically after verse 25. The begining of vs 27 does not have to follow the ending of verse 26 as if a Chronology.

Some commentators use a 26A, 26b; 27a, 27b designation.

In addition, it is said in the same verse that the "instability" (ie wars) would go on till the end. Only thereafter do we get to the last week in vs 27. Daniel says that the "he" (whoever you think he is, but it is "he who shall come", which means this "he" wasn't there in 70Ad)

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No, it means that he, the prince who is to come wasnt' there when the Messiah was cut off. You've already agreed that the destroying of the city and tabernacle in vs 26 is referring to 70 AD and it is these people of that prince that do the destruction. There is a big difference.

confirms an agreement for a week. (this obviously is the 70th week. This lasts till the "consumption". So, no matter how you slice it, Daniel creates a gap between the 69th and the 70th week, with very precise events being predicted.

Click to expand...

The 'gap' is created between the 70th week and the things that are determined due to the occurances in the 70th week. The gap is between the Messiah being cut off and the desolations of the tabernacle,city and people.

Daniel uses 2 stanzas to clarify and explain the happenings of the 70th week and the effects that those things caused.

In Daniels 70 week prophecy, what happens after 69 weeks? Answer: a final week. vs27, when is this 'final week'? Answer, after the 62th week and the annointing of the Messiah, vs 26. We know that sometime after (doesn't say the end of) the 62nd week, the Messiah is cut off. When? In the middle of "a" week, he puts an end to sacrifice and offering. (the Levitical Law was put to death, Eph 2:14-6) What happens then? Answer: the people of the prince who is to come will destry the city and the sanctuary and desolations that are determined because of the abomination will continue until the end of the war and until they are finished with their complete desolations.

Here below is the way it is printed in NKJV. Notice the grouping,

25 "Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

Most versions do not include the word 'then' in verse 27, but use and or just start with 'He".

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then (only in NKJV, most say 'and' or start with 'he') he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."

holdon · Sep 10, 2007

Notrash said:
Well, lets call this deductive reasoning based on information given.
A. The Jew/Gentile church is now and forevermore without barrier, thus we may as well not even say Jew/Gentile because there is no such differentiation in Christ. The Barrier has been removed; (abolished; Eph 2:14-16) To reinstate the barrier of leivitical law would then no longer be Christ's Church. Paul says that God's glory is in His church through all ages. Eph 3:21. Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Click to expand...

Amen

B. The only type of Jew Religion that survived the desolation is Pharisaism. This is according to the Jewish encyclopedia, (the jews themselves) They have (I THINK) most recently been reinstituting the Sanhedrein and other sects which are not much different. This may be the Vipers egg that was 'crushed' in Isaiah 59:5.

Click to expand...

Well, I'm not so sure it only the pharisee type. But Jesus was clear: "this kind shall not pass away", and voila the unbelieving Jew is still here. Despite all the persecutions, all the trouble they have been through, still the same kind.

THUS: Since the levitical law has been abolished nailed to the cross and saved Jews would not have a need for it since it is abolished, the only people who would reinstate it would be the Pharisee sect. The only people seeking the land are the Pharisee sect. Or the group that believes that the land promises are to the church/Body of Christ. But we both agree that saved Jew/Gentile of the body of Christ should not be marching on Jerusalem. (I think)

Click to expand...

I don't know what "levitical law" has to do with "the land". The land was promised to Abraham, way before the law came by Moses. If the land promise to Abraham was indeed for the body of Christ, then all christians should march to that land. The reason why the body of Christ is not claiming any land is because they're citizenship is on high. Their blessings are not earthly, but spiritual and heavenly/ See Ephesians, etc... They are a spiritual nation.

I don't know if your putting to much emphasis on from the ground up, it can mean built upon also. But a question that is Good to ask is weather or not by 'upon this rock', Jesus meant Peter's confession that Jesus was the Messiah, Christ, son of God, or if Jesus meant that it was the fact that the Father in heaven had revealed it to Peter, not flesh and blood.(john 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.) (OR both,)

Click to expand...

It is all that that revelation comprises.

Well, let me ask, Do dispensationalists teach, feel or believe that all of Israelites were "corporately" saved by the actions of the Levite Priests in the temple? Or that all those genetically descended from Israel or Abraham were ever saved as a group in any point in History, or future?

Click to expand...

No, I don't think so. But I don't have the pretension to speak for all dispensationalists.....

Paul says in Eph 2:19, Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,

This gives some credence to the idea that the present Ecclesia is a continuation of the church of the prophets and apostles. There is a reality to the idea that the body of Christ has new aspects to it, but an argument could also be made that it is only new to the Jews who no longer need to maintain the tabernacle and ordinances.

Click to expand...

If Christ is the foundation, there could not have been a Church before He came. Also, you see that both the Jews and the Gentiles are put on this new footing in the Church. Not: the Gentile joined the Jew.

Well, Daneil says after the (62+7..69th week) the Messiah shall be cut off, but he doesnt' say when after. The end of the 70th week is definately after 69 weeks, no doubt. Remember, part of inductive study is to realize both what the text does say and also not to assume what it doesnt' say. The text doesn't say that the Messiah would be cut off at the end of the 69th week. Technicality, you might accuse, but this wording sets up the question when after the 69nd week that is answered in vs 26 and 27.

Click to expand...

But there is no reason not to think it is before that last week.

But now lets go back to what the 62'nd week brings in or how it is marked.

25 "Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

Verse 25 says that from the Command to rebuild Jerusalem (which I dont' think had happened yet) until Messiah the Prince.. shall be 69weeks. Now why don't we say that the 69 weeks ended at Bethlehem at his Birth?

Click to expand...

Because it says He was cut off after 69 weeks would have elapsed. And it would bring you into trouble because the city and sanctuary would be destroyed before the another 7 years would go by.

That would make sense to the normal reading of verse 25 alone. But he was not titled Messiah in Bethlehem, but rather Immanuel. So when then did Messiah (which means annointed one) the Prince come into play. Some say during the triumphal entry when the throngs sang Hosahna to the son of David. But the obvious better answer is that Jesus became recognized as 'Messiah, the Prince', "annointed one" at his Baptism and annointing by the Holy Spirit as he confirms in Reading Isaiah 61 passage only a short time later. A "Prince" is a son of the King and God's words out of the Heavens at his Baptism were "this is my Son" Search Philip Mauro on Google for some good analysis of the word Messiah meaning annointed one.

Click to expand...

You see the city and sanctuary destroyed. (the city that kills the prophets, would then no longer be able to kill Messiah, if it was destroyed before He was crucified). I think it is evident what the normal time course is.

Yes, we would be in agreement with vs 26. Thus the covenant that you propose would have been in 66-73 AD. Some people view it this way. I do not.

Click to expand...

No, I see them making a covenant in the last days. (still to come)

There is a dividing key in both verses that seperate the 70th 'week' from the later desolations.
In 26 it is the phrase "who is to come" referring to the prince of the people who desolate the city. This seperates the people who come (army that destroys the city and sanctuary) from the cutting off (death) of the Messiah.
In verse 27 it says... on the wing of abominations. That means to me that the abominations (lies and idolatry) are the cause of the eventual desolations. Just like a human arm (wing) usually has a cause to move and act, so also the continued temple sacrifice after God ripped open the vail are part of the idolatry that cause the desolation. Thus there is a seperation of the Idolatry that continue in the temple by use of the term 'wings'. The idolatry does not bring immediate desolation, but because of their continued idolatry desolations are determined "even until it's consummation' Even until the desolations are complete at the end of the war.

It is said that if a person was standing in the center of Jerusalem after the desolation, they would have not know that a city was there previously.

One of they keys to this being Paralellism is the usage of similar words and ideas in both verses. The week in verse 27 coincides with the 70th week. Especially since verse 26 and 27 were written together under the heading of verse 25, both 26 and 27 are connected chronologically after verse 25. The begining of vs 27 does not have to follow the ending of verse 26 as if a Chronology.

Click to expand...

But I see no necessary reason not to.

Some commentators use a 26A, 26b; 27a, 27b designation.

No, it means that he, the prince who is to come wasnt' there when the Messiah was cut off. You've already agreed that the destroying of the city and tabernacle in vs 26 is referring to 70 AD and it is these people of that prince that do the destruction. There is a big difference.

The 'gap' is created between the 70th week and the things that are determined due to the occurances in the 70th week. The gap is between the Messiah being cut off and the desolations of the tabernacle,city and people.

Daniel uses 2 stanzas to clarify and explain the happenings of the 70th week and the effects that those things caused.

In Daniels 70 week prophecy, what happens after 69 weeks? Answer: a final week. vs27, when is this 'final week'? Answer, after the 62th week and the annointing of the Messiah, vs 26. We know that sometime after (doesn't say the end of) the 62nd week, the Messiah is cut off. When? In the middle of "a" week, he puts an end to sacrifice and offering. (the Levitical Law was put to death, Eph 2:14-6)

Click to expand...

But there is no reason to think that the "he" is the Messiah. Rather it must be grammatically the prince that immediately precedes.

What happens then? Answer: the people of the prince who is to come will destry the city and the sanctuary and desolations that are determined because of the abomination will continue until the end of the war and until they are finished with their complete desolations.

Here below is the way it is printed in NKJV. Notice the grouping,

25 "Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

Most versions do not include the word 'then' in verse 27, but use and or just start with 'He".

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then (only in NKJV, most say 'and' or start with 'he') he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."

Click to expand...

There is just no need whatsoever to change things around.

Now, if as you say the unbelieving kind is still around, which is true, then the 70weeks are not over yet:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are apportioned out upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to close the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make expiation for iniquity, and to bring in the righteousness of the ages, and to seal the vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies.

Notrash · Sep 10, 2007

Micah68 said:
Micah68 said:

All of the above taken from 'Christian Zionism, Road map to Armageddon?' by Dr. Rev. Stephen Sizer
vicar of Christ Church, Virginia Water, Surrey, and Chairman of the International Bible Society (UK).
(261) Josephus regarded the death of Ananus as the beginning of the of the destruction of Jerusalem, and it is possible that Christians saw in his murder the appointment of apostate high priests like Phannias, the sacrilege Jesus had warned of in Matthew 24.

Click to expand...

I like this explaination. It would actually mirror the following destruction of Jerusalem again in 135 AD when they chose a "messiah" based on his name. When this occured, the christians that were still associated with the Jews seperated ways and did not support the movement.

Notrash · Sep 10, 2007

quote=Notrash;38697572]

Verse 25 says that from the Command to rebuild Jerusalem (which I dont' think had happened yet) until Messiah the Prince.. shall be 69weeks. Now why don't we say that the 69 weeks ended at Bethlehem at his Birth?

Because it says He was cut off after 69 weeks would have elapsed. And it would bring you into trouble because the city and sanctuary would be destroyed before the another 7 years would go by. You see the city and sanctuary destroyed. (the city that kills the prophets, would then no longer be able to kill Messiah, if it was destroyed before He was crucified). I think it is evident what the normal time course is.

Click to expand...

[/quote]

I'm not advocating that the 69th week began at Bethlehem, I'm just saying that there is significance to the name Messiah the Prince that help us determine when the 69 weeks end and the 70th week began.

Yes, we would be in agreement with vs 26. Thus the covenant that you propose would have been in 66-73 AD. Some people view it this way. I do not.

No, I see them making a covenant in the last days. (still to come)

Click to expand...

Well, first you said that the desolation described in vs 26 describes the destruction of the tabernacle and City, and that is by the People of the Prince who is (was) to come. The People who destroy the city and the Prince to come are joined together. (This idea of a restored Roman Empire just to accomplish a different idea of a different prince is much much more out of line than any Parallelism.) Then you would take the future covenant from verse 27 and apply it to a prince in verse 26 who is connected to the people who destroy the tabernacle and city.
Quote:

One of they keys to this being Paralellism is the usage of similar words and ideas in both verses. The week in verse 27 coincides with the 70th week. Especially since verse 26 and 27 were written together under the heading of verse 25, both 26 and 27 are connected chronologically after verse 25. The begining of vs 27 does not have to follow the ending of verse 26 as if a Chronology.

But I see no necessary reason not to.

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Because that is not how Parallelism are read. They are intended to be broken down according to their phrases and stanza's not read in Chronology.

I think This type is called a CHIASM, but it could simply be a synonomous parallelism using 2 verses rather than all in the same verse.
http://bibleforums.org/forum/archive/index.php?t-55348.html
That AB=BA stepladder is called a Chiasm,3 pronounced kee-ahzum.
Chiasms appear throughout Scripture, from Genesis to
Revelation. What an author declares in the steps going up, he
repeats in the steps going down. Here are two more chiasms, one
two-step and one three-step: an ABC=CBA. They have been
shortened for clarity, but the full text is in your Bible:

Psa 68:15-16
A. The hill of God is as the hill of Bashan.
B. an high hill as the hill of Bashan.
B. Why leap ye, ye high hills?
A. this is the hill which God desireth to dwell...
MAR 5:3-5
A. Who had his dwelling among the tombs
B. and no man could bind him,
C. no, not with chains:
C. he had been bound with chains,
B. neither could any man tame him.
A. And always he was in the tombs...

In fact the book of Isaiah is said to be Parallelism with the first 33 chapters being repeated in the 2nd 33 chapters. I haven't investigated that claim yet.
http://www.ellisskolfield.com/pdf/Bifids_Chiasms.pdf
1-5 Ruin and Restoration 34-35
6-8 Biographical Information 36-40
9-12 Blessings and Judgments 41-45
13-23 About Gentile Nations 46-48
24-27 Redemption and Deliverance 49-55
28-31 Ethics and Sermons 56-59
32-33 Restoration of Israel 60-66

I see no reason that it should be read chronologically other than to willfully insert the Gap.

But there is no reason to think that the "he" is the Messiah. Rather it must be grammatically the prince that immediately precedes.

The correct subject of the previous sentence is "the people who destroy the city" The "HE" cannot describe the people. In proper english and grammer it would re-introduce 'the prince' as the subject before using a pronoun for him. Those are the rules of grammer. Thus the "He" refers back to Messiah.

There is just no need whatsoever to change things around.

I'm sorry that it changes things around for you. But this is semi-typical of Hebrew Parallelism in poetry. To me it is not 'changed around'. When you see similar wordings and phrases at the ends of the beginnings of the 2 verses and at the end of the 2 verses, then you begin to identify it as a Parallelism. I think the Holy Spirit did this to magnify himself and show that the writing was inspired. Human invention could not write in such a way and be accurate.
I see no reason whatsoever to split the 69th and 70th week. It is not supported by the intent of the vision or the intent of the text. It's almost as if you put a gap between the 2 verses that are joined in poetry. As the one Rabbii said; "it is a very 'forced' perspective.

Now, if as you say the unbelieving kind is still around, which is true, then the 70weeks are not over yet:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are apportioned out upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to close the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make expiation for iniquity, and to bring in the righteousness of the ages, and to seal the vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies.

Neither did Jerusalem stay dead (physically speaking), but to read only the first words it would indicate that 70 weeks were given to Daniels and the city to exist. But the intent is that 70 weeks was given for Daniels People and the holy city to accomplish the 6 listed items.

And these were all acomplished during the 70 weeks ending with Christ and the teaching of the disciples in the holy city. The fact that God has brought these things to pass does not mean that the Pharisee sect died off, or that Daniels people died off, it just means the end of levitical law and tabernacle/sacrifices and the end of the need for the geneology of the Jews. The tabernacle was filled with types of Christ and the Jewish lineage brought in and confirmed the Messiah. The destruction of the geneological records was very symbolic of the end of the importance of the geneological seedline and the segregation of jew/gentile.

You can see how one man attributes these 6 things to have been accomplished.
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/daniel/daniel-09.htm

Micah68 · Sep 11, 2007

holdon said:
Instead of listening to these conconctions, let's hear what the bible says:

Mt 24:15 "When therefore ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which is spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in what is a holy place, (he that reads let him understand,)
24:16 then let those who are in Judaea flee to the mountains;"

Isnt' it clear from this passage alone, that when they would see the abomination standing in the holy place, that THEN it would be time to flee, etc..

Therefore it is not "flee etc.. and then see the abomination" (like in 70AD) but the other way around. It would be cruel from Jesus indeed to mislead them, because for those that would have waited till they would see the Romans in the Temple, it was waaay too late. No, in the end, yet to come, the abomination will be in the temple and even the antichrist will take seat there:

2 Thess 2:3 Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because it will not be unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;
2:4 who opposes and exalts himself on hight against all called God, or object of veneration; so that he himself sits down in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
When that happens, it will be time for those in the land to flee and get out of there.

But for 70AD they were warned here:

Luke 21:20
But when ye see Jerusalem encompassed with armies, then know that its desolation is drawn nigh. 21:21 Then let those who are in Judaea flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of it depart out, and those who are in the country not enter into it; 21:22 for these are days of avenging, that all the things that are written may be accomplished. 21:23 But woe to them that are with child and to them who give suck in those days, for there shall be great distress upon the land and wrath upon this people. 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the nations until the times of the nations be fulfilled.

'Then' also translates 'at that time'

I am not understanding your argument.......

Micah68 · Sep 11, 2007

Notrash said:
I like this explaination. It would actually mirror the following destruction of Jerusalem again in 135 AD when they chose a "messiah" based on his name. When this occured, the christians that were still associated with the Jews seperated ways and did not support the movement.

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Though slow reading, I am finding Josephus great help in understanding the time with which it was written, In particular;

CHAPTER 5.
THE GREAT DISTRESS THE JEWS WERE IN UPON THE CONFLAGRATION OF THE HOLY HOUSE. CONCERNING A FALSE PROPHET, AND THE SIGNS THAT PRECEDED THIS DESTRUCTION.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/war-6.htm

.....A false prophet (19) was the occasion of these people's destruction, who had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God commanded them to get upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance. Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes. Now a man that is in adversity does easily comply with such promises; for when such a seducer makes him believe that he shall be delivered from those miseries which oppress him, then it is that the patient is full of hopes of such his deliverance.
3. Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them.

CHAPTER 10.
THAT WHEREAS THE CITY OF JERUSALEM HAD BEEN FIVE TIMES TAKEN FORMERLY, THIS WAS THE SECOND TIME OF ITS DESOLATION. A BRIEF ACCOUNT OF ITS HISTORY.
1. AND thus was Jerusalem taken, in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, on the eighth day of the month Gorpeius [Elul]. It had been taken five (34) times before, though this was the second time of its desolation; for Shishak, the king of Egypt, and after him Antiochus, and after him Pompey, and after them Sosius and Herod, took the city, but still preserved it; but before all these, the king of Babylon conquered it, and made it desolate, one thousand four hundred and sixty-eight years and six months after it was built. But he who first built it. Was a potent man among the Canaanites, and is in our own tongue called [Melchisedek], the Righteous King, for such he really was; on which account he was [there] the first priest of God, and first built a temple [there], and called the city Jerusalem, which was formerly called Salem. However, David, the king of the Jews, ejected the Canaanites, and set-tied his own people therein. It was demolished entirely by the Babylonians, four hundred and seventy-seven years and six months after him. And from king David, who was the first of the Jews who reigned therein, to this destruction under Titus, were one thousand one hundred and seventy-nine years; but from its first building, till this last destruction, were two thousand one hundred and seventy-seven years; yet hath not its great antiquity, nor its vast riches, nor the diffusion of its nation over all the habitable earth, nor the greatness of the veneration paid to it on a religious account, been sufficient to preserve it from being destroyed. And thus ended the siege of Jerusalem.

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So much needs to be considered when reading the Bible, Context, the time and to whom it was written.

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