A Serious Concern I have about Dispensationalism

[holdon]

I am curious, in the 2000 years of Christianity, why it took so long for dispensationalism to come having only been around about 200 years? Also, according to dispensationalism, when will the rapture occur? and when will Christ return for the final time. What is the exact length of the the gap between the 69th and 70th week? I really am all confused.

~Micah

Don't get hung up on "dispensationalism". It has taken quite a flight of its own. Although I agree for the most part with the concept, I find myself not agreeing people who have whipped this up out of proportion.

What is important to see is that exactly as Jesus had predicted, very soon the first christians lost sight of His coming as a present hope. Very early on, you see the church fathers inventing all kinds of stuff re. the prophecies. Although you do see here and there still glimpses of the truth even in their writings, and it is fair to say that the "futurist" position has always existed.

According to classic dispensationalism nobody knows when the rapture will occur.
I think the 69th week stopped when they had no longer a king of the Jews. The 70th will start again when they will have one: aka the antichrist.
(some others may say the 69th week stopped with Christ entering His public ministry, ie His baptism). Not much difference. (At any rate there was no destruction for Jerusalem within 7 years after His baptism, or after His death.)

 

[Micah68]

Don't get hung up on "dispensationalism". It has taken quite a flight of its own. Although I agree for the most part with the concept, I find myself not agreeing people who have whipped this up out of proportion.

What is important to see is that exactly as Jesus had predicted, very soon the first christians lost sight of His coming as a present hope. Very early on, you see the church fathers inventing all kinds of stuff re. the prophecies. Although you do see here and there still glimpses of the truth even in their writings, and it is fair to say that the "futurist" position has always existed.

According to classic dispensationalism nobody knows when the rapture will occur.
I think the 69th week stopped when they had no longer a king of the Jews. The 70th will start again when they will have one: aka the antichrist.
(some others may say the 69th week stopped with Christ entering His public ministry, ie His baptism). Not much difference. (At any rate there was no destruction for Jerusalem within 7 years after His baptism, or after His death.)

My biggest question still isn't answered. If the Bible teaches this dispensation (I'm still not convinced), why didn't anybody see it for almost 2000 years?

What is interesting about the verses below is that they
say exactly what is going to happen.

Thessalonians 4 says,
"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that
we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, with a trumpet of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first."

The next verse talks about being caught up with the Lord in the air. When does this happen? My understanding is that it happens at the coming of the Lord, according to verse 15. Paul says the dead in Christ shall rise first. Paul does not call this event the rapture, which is todays popular word, he calls it a resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15 where in a moment, or the twinkling of
the eye at the last trumpet, the dead will be raised imperishable and the living shall be changed and the mortal will put on immortality. Notice back in 1 Thessalonians 4 Paul was talking about a resurrection. In 1 Corinthians 15, the entire chapter is about resurrection. But he tells the timing of it in verse 23. It says, "but each in his own order, Christ at the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at his coming and then comes the end."

I have a hard time seeing this any other way.

~Micah

 

[holdon]

My biggest question still isn't answered. If the Bible teaches this dispensation (I'm still not convinced), why didn't anybody see it for almost 2000 years?

Jesus says this in Mt 25: all the virgins who were supposed to wait for His coming, fell asleep.

What is interesting about the verses below is that they
say exactly what is going to happen.

Thessalonians 4 says,
"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that
we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, with a trumpet of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first."

The next verse talks about being caught up with the Lord in the air. When does this happen? My understanding is that it happens at the coming of the Lord, according to verse 15. Paul says the dead in Christ shall rise first. Paul does not call this event the rapture, which is todays popular word, he calls it a resurrection.

Instead of rapture we could say the catching away or something like that. It happens at Christ's coming FOR the saints.

1 Corinthians 15 where in a moment, or the twinkling of
the eye at the last trumpet, the dead will be raised imperishable and the living shall be changed and the mortal will put on immortality. Notice back in 1 Thessalonians 4 Paul was talking about a resurrection. In 1 Corinthians 15, the entire chapter is about resurrection. But he tells the timing of it in verse 23. It says, "but each in his own order, Christ at the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at his coming and then comes the end."

So, we know when Christ rose: almost 2000 years ago. We are still expecting the resurrection of those who are Christ's.

 

[Micah68]

Jesus says this in Mt 25: all the virgins who were supposed to wait for His coming, fell asleep.

This still doesn't answer the question, did the virgins suddenly wake up.

Instead of rapture we could say the catching away or something like that. It happens at Christ's coming FOR the saints. So, we know when Christ rose: almost 2000 years ago. We are still expecting the resurrection of those who are Christ's.

I can, literally, agree with this.

 

[holdon]

This still doesn't answer the question, did the virgins suddenly wake up.

Yes, they did. In the middle of the night. For a long time, there was almost no talk about it, but it's no surprise then that there is a renewed interest in Christ's coming.

 

[Micah68]

Yes, they did. In the middle of the night. For a long time, there was almost no talk about it, but it's no surprise then that there is a renewed interest in Christ's coming.

Ok Give me scripture please.

 

[holdon]

Ok Give me scripture please.

Mt 25.

 

[Micah68]

Mt 25.

So where does it say they have been asleep 2000 +/- years? The way I read this is that we are just to be ready.(PERIOD) Nothing else..

http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Mat&chapter=25&verse=1

25:1 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 25:2 Five 1 of the virgins 2 were foolish, and five were wise. 25:3 When 3 the foolish ones took their lamps, they did not take extra 4 olive oil 5 with them. 25:4 But the wise ones took flasks of olive oil with their lamps. 25:5 When 6 the bridegroom was delayed a long time, they all became drowsy and fell asleep. 25:6 But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Look, the bridegroom is here! Come out to meet him.’ 7 25:7 Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 25:8 The 8 foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’ 25:9 ‘No,’ they replied. 9 ‘There won’t be enough for you and for us. Go instead to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’ 25:10 But while they had gone to buy it, the bridegroom arrived, and those who were ready went inside with him to the wedding banquet. Then 10 the door was shut. 25:11 Later, 11 the other virgins came too, saying, ‘Lord, lord! Let us in!’ 12 25:12 But he replied, 13 ‘I tell you the truth, 14 I do not know you!’ 25:13 Therefore stay alert, because you do not know the day or the hour. 15

http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Mat&chapter=25&verse=1http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Mat&chapter=25&verse=1

 

[JDS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Micah68
I am curious, in the 2000 years of Christianity, why it took so long for dispensationalism to come having only been around about 200 years? Also, according to dispensationalism, when will the rapture occur? and when will Christ return for the final time. What is the exact length of the the gap between the 69th and 70th week? I really am all confused.

~Micah

Question 1 -
I am curious, in the 2000 years of Christianity, why it took so long for dispensationalism to come having only been around about 200 years?

This one is easy. Dispensationalism is taught in the Scriptures. In the NT two of the dispensations are named by the inspirer of Scripture, the Holy Spirit and written down by the man whom he chose for the purpose, the apostle Paul.

Here they are and if you disagree you may give a bible reason.

Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you–ward:

This is what the epistle to the Ephesians is about, BTW.

Here is the other in the same epistle and one could not deal with the doctrine of the church and not deal with its rapture;

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

This is the next dispensation. It is called the fullness of times (plural) because there have been times (plural) before the fullness. Therefore, we can conclude by reading of the events of the fulness of times in Ep 1 that the rapture will occur, not in the end of this age, but in the very beginning of the next.

But to be specific in answering your question, there has always been a parallel church that has resembled the true church. They have been the educated, the refined, and the elites. They have written the books and consequently they have been quoted and followed, imitated and revered. Have you ever heard of Origen, Augustine, etc? They wrote books that inspired the formulation of the world’s largest and most wicked church the world has ever seen. Truth did not do that! Meanwhile the faithful pastors of small congregations kept the faith but they were not heard from, quoted, imitated, or revered. But they were doing what God said for his pastors to do and that is shepherding their own flock. The Bible had already been written. It was and is authority and the Holy Spirit had been given to teach the humble pastor so he could teach his flock. Soon the false, wicked church became the ruler of kings and began persecuting and banned the word of God and cast the world into the dark ages. It was only when men began to be free from oppressive religion that bound men in a collective mindset with an authoritative governing body that is the standard for their churches in defiance of the instruction of God in his word that the churches be governed by no one except his appointed pastors, and once again began to study the truth with the discerning Holy Spirit that dispensational theology was again taught.


Question 2

Also, according to dispensationalism, when will the rapture occur?

Dispensationalists do not have a governing body, church courts, counsels, catechisms, and such like to have their doctrines approved. We have liberty to study and reach our own conclusions. Therefore, My conclusion is that it will be the first major event of the dispensation of the fullness of times. I have many reasons for that but I will give you one.

1 Co 15 says, 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

If the church is gathered from heaven and earth according to Ep 1:10 in the fullness of times and it is at the last trump, it stands that there must have been a first trump. It is my belief at this point that the blowing of the first trump is the event which brings our dispensation to an end. Indeed, the Day of the Lord, a theme of the OT prophets and the NT writers and is used 30 times in Scripture over 100’s of years and in every single case means the tribulation judgment of God is said to come like a thief in the night. For information on the two silver trumpets that God had Moses to fashion, you may look them up in Numbers. One was used to call Israel to war; the other was used to call assembly. They have symbolic meanings.

Question 3
When will Christ return for the final time?
He will come in glory TO THE EARTH and every eye will see him. Re 1:7. There will be a profound reaction by the inhabitants of the earth when this happens. Re 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Re 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

This will be at the very end of the tribulation and just before all the inhabitants of the earth are destroyed. Mt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

The mighty armies of heaven, the angels, and the church, the Lamb’s wife all return with him and he smites the antichrist armies in Megiddo and sets up his 1000 year reign over kings and lords. He is King of kings and Lord of lords. Read Re 19 for clear information.

Question 4
What is the exact length of the the gap between the 69th and 70th week?

Two thousand years. It is no mystery, we are told that in many passages in Scriptures. I am running out of room here so I will prove that later if you like.

You need not be confused. You are listening to people who have an agenda, who are engaged in a corporate mind set and therefore are blind. My advice; get away from those people.

 

[Notrash]

(At any rate there was no destruction for Jerusalem within 7 years after His baptism, or after His death.)

Again, Notice in vs 24 that the destruction of Jerusalem isnt' mentioned, only positive happenings. The second part of vs 27 (just like the second part of vs 26) has the future tense marker of "shall come"(in vs 27; will come in vs 26) refering to 'one who makes desolate' because of the continued abominations. Thus these desolations can be after the 70 weeks are completed, but as a result of the occurances within the 490 years. In other words, the destruction does not occur within the 70th week but because of it. Jesus says that the desolation spoken of the prophet Daniel will occur within a generation of His time though.
The seiges of Jerusalem/Judea occured 1 Generation after Jesus' 3 1/2 year ministry. His baptism was 27 AD, crucifiction 30 AD; stoning of Stephen approximately 33 AD. Roman seiges began about 66/67 AD and finished with Massada in 73 AD.

I feel that if Gabriel would have wanted Daniel (or us) to think that the 490 years were not continuous, he would have begun with something like "7 weeks, 62 weeks and 1 week are determined for your people and the holy city. But he started with 70 (sevens) or 490 years first. Futurists have no more authority to insert a gap between the 69th and 70th week than they do between the 7th and 8th weeks. By doing so, futurists butcher the word of God, cutting it up by false interpretation of 2 Tim 2:15 to make it say what they have been indoctrinated into believing; and that there is a continued seperation of Israel and the church, and that there will be a God blessed restoration of Israel after the church is raptured. Both of these are Pharisaic concepts. Israel is now considered "lost" as all other peoples. Rom 11:32, Gal 3:22, John 3:18,36.

If Gabriel intended for there to be a Gap between 69/70th weeks, there would also have been one between the 7th/8th. As it was, he was only signifying a change in the happenings, not a break in the continuity of the years of the prophecy.

Again, reading these prophecies in the Literature style in which they were written, solves all of these problems. The first parts of vs 26 and 27 are within the final 70th week and the second parts of those verses are within a generation of the 70th week.

So then what is this present "Israel". Could it be part of a delusion?...allowed against those who do not read their bibles with the spirit of seeking to/walk with, be submissive/obedient to and learn from the Holy Spirit but rather those who would seek to find Gods approval and approve of themselves, not through the cross and the Spirit of love and lordship of Christs, but by being 'studied' and learned in God's word.

Or could it be a ploy by the same Pharisee sect who crawled out from under that which was crushed, (Isaiah 59:5) By borrowing Egyptian ideas of Chilaism (millenialism) and attepting to teach the 'futurist' doctrine even in the first 100 years or so, they have finally suceeded in injecting futurism, millenialims and zionism into biblical teachings of many. Dispensationalism roots may not be with Darby, or Irving and also not totally with Ribera and Lacunza but also a Jewish Rabii (Nachman)as recorded in the Jewish Encyclopedia. http://www.fixedearth.com/dandmotf.html

The church "parenthesis" within God's timeframe of Glorifying himself in Israel then is false and bred possibly from those same Pharisees. The future 'literal' millenial kingdom of Christ coming to rule on earth, is also then seeking a false Messiah, since the Real One already has come. John refers to this as the spirit of the anti-christ.

I write these last 3 paragraphs as my beliefs for support to those who come reading this and are spiritually convinced likewise; not for further debate or discussion.

 

[Notrash]

Two thousand years. It is no mystery, we are told that in many passages in Scriptures. I am running out of room here so I will prove that later if you like.

Yes, I'm very interested. Lindsey apparently thought it was a different amount of time. So did prophecy expert Blackstone and many others before him. Hmmmm?

Or perhaps this could be what your referring to? These [are] the generations of Shem: Shem [was] an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood: ??? Arphaxad's name means healer. And the flood now refers to the desolation of Jerusalem and we know that 'years' can be symbolic years; thus are a type of the 2 thousand years until the healing of Jerusalem .... Yes.. that's what Moses was writing about here.

 

[Notrash]

At Pentecost is when the body of Christ was formed: baptized by the spirit into one body. ???

Of course. The ground for salvation has always been the same, but God's dealings were different. Before there was the Church, there was Israel. Before there was Israel, there were the patriarchs. Before the patriarchs, there were individuals. That is the point of "dispensationalism".

I'd rather think of it this way. After individuals whom God worked with, there were individuals whom God worked with, after those individuals, more, then there were more individuals whom God gave laws, ordinances commandments to to remind those individuals and those around them of His promises to all individuals. Then he removed those ordinances and confirmed the promises and commandments given to Individuals when He came to earth Himself to be the propitiation for the sins of mankind that originated in the Garden, but were caused by Satans' jealousy of mankind due to his wanting to be 'like God'. Their comes a time when individuals who actively believe in the Christ substitutionary and atoning death and His Lordship through the Holy Spirit, will live again eternally without reference to sin.

 

[Micah68]

Yes, I'm very interested. Lindsey apparently thought it was a different amount of time. So did prophecy expert Blackstone and many others before him. Hmmmm?

Or perhaps this could be what your referring to? These [are] the generations of Shem: Shem [was] an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood: ??? Arphaxad's name means healer. And the flood now refers to the desolation of Jerusalem and we know that 'years' can be symbolic years; thus are a type of the 2 thousand years until the healing of Jerusalem .... Yes.. that's what Moses was writing about here.

I personally tend to think that God might utilize in his judgments some modern devices of man which the Apostle John was at a loss for words to describe nineteen centuries ago! In the case just mentioned, the locusts might symbolize an advanced kind of helicopter... -Hal Lindsey There's a New World Coming (1973) Lindsey, There's., p. 8. See also page 141 for Cobra helicopters

By the time he wrote Apocalypse Code (1997), 24 years later, "might symbolize" becomes what the apostle John "actually saw." Just exactly how could a first century prophet describe, much less understand, the incredible advances in science and technology that exist at the end of the 20th and the beginning of the 21st centuries? Yet he testified and God bore witness that he actually saw and heard things like: supersonic jet aircraft with missiles... advanced attack helicopters... intercontinental ballistic missiles with Multiple Independently Targeted Reentry Vehicles tipped with thermonuclear warheads... biological and chemical weapons, aircraft carriers, missile cruisers, nuclear submarines, laser weapons, space stations and satellites...Lindsey, Apocalypse., p. 36.

Today, the Soviets are without question the strongest power on the face of the earth. Lets look at recent history to see how the Russians rose to the might predicted for them thousands of years ago. -Hal Lindsey 1980's 'Count Down to Armegeddon' p. 68.

We see Russia as no longer a world threat, but a regional power with a world-class military - exactly what Ezekiel 38 and 39 predicted it would be. -Lindsey, 'Planet Earth 2000 A.D.', p. 216

'The Russian force will establish command headquarters on Mount Moriah or the Temple area in Jerusalem. ...he seeks to utterly destroy the Jewish people' -Lindsey 'Late Great Planet Earth' (1970) p.160.

'

...the Russian-Muslim force retreats back to Israel and sets up command HQs on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. These forces try to annihilate the Jews as they do this' -Lindsey Apocalypse Code (1997) p. 153

It is amazing to me, really, how many times 'facts' can be changed. Someones' wise words of advice .....follow the money trail.......

 

[Micah68]

You need not be confused. You are listening to people who have an agenda, who are engaged in a corporate mind set and therefore are blind. My advice; get away from those people.

Yeah I agree, I'll hang with these folks Church Positions

 

[Micah68]

Same question framed in a new way;

How is this a literal reading of the Bible when 69 weeks = 69 weeks and the 70th week = 2000 years? Me thinks it is not literal?

 

[Notrash]

Why not? Do you think the destruction of the sanctuary and the city is within the 490 years after the decree?

NO, That's the point I've been trying to get across. The destruction isnt' mentioned or alluded to in Dan 9:24. The 6 things listed in vs 24 occur in the 490 years do not occur by the destruction of Jerusalem but by the first coming of Christ and the confirmation of the Gospel. Finish the transgression and make an end to sins occured at the hands of the Priests and leaders who crucified Christ, reconciliation for iniquity and bring in everlasting righteousness occured in the eternal realms of truth and justice at his crucifiction, sealing (ending)the vision and prophecy and annointing Jesus also occured at his Baptism and the continued rejection of the Gospel message by the rulers/Pharisees which caused the predetermined judgement to fall on Jerusalem. The desolation is about vengence and judgement on that generation as John the Baptist and Jesus both taught and the physical ending of the table of laws and ordinances that had become idolatrous after their types had been fulfilled in the REALITY OF CHRIST's COMING.
Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

If this destruction happened in 70AD (and there is no other I think), you will have serious trouble finding a decree anywhere close 490 years earlier. So, the conclusion must be I think that there is a gap between the 69th and the 70th as is also indicated in the text itself.

The destruction and desolation occur after the 490 year prophecy. The gap is a generation GAP (pun intended) between the first parts of vs 26 and 27 and their second parts as referred to by the words "who is to come" in vs 26 and "shall come" (CORRECTION; SHOULD SAY 'SHALL CAUSE')in vs 27. People were looking for the Messiah at the right time, just as the Samaritain woman at the well had stated. The wise men also knew and had calculated his birth.

[Notrash quote] It would not glorify God by seeing it fulfilled. It would be a false prophecy. Also, how would it compare with Jeremiahs 70 year prophecy, or God saying to Abraham that his descendents would be in Egypt for 400 years begining with the 4th generation. Those prophecies show that God was there, knows the future and can accomplish all he will say.

Jeremiah's 70 years have nothing to do with this one. 70 years is different from 490 years.

It has everything to do with God making a prophecy of 490 years (70 sevens) and fulfilling it in the way it was Given to the hearer. Daniel confirmed and believed the fulfillment of Jeremiahs 70 year prophecy and Jesus and many faithful confirmed the fulfillment of Daniels 490 year prophecy.
Others in the city and Isreal were not looking for a Spirtual ETERNAL Messiah but a earthly temporal King Messiah before the remade world; no doubt propogated by the teachings of the rulers/Pharisees and Sanhedren, Zealots who desired revolt against the Lawful but seemingly oppressive Govt of Rome.

That's exactly right. After Messiah was cut off, because of the people rejecting Christ, the clock re. the Jewish people stopped so to speak.

Again, His Baptism, His coming as Messiah (annointed son of God) ended the 69 weeks. 3 1/2 years later is Jesus was cut off, (a term signifying murdered) halfway through the 70th week. Your chronological reading has Messiah cut off to end the 69th week. This isn't so. His crucifiction must come within the actual 70 weeks because the reconciliation of iniquities is recorded in vs 24 as happening within the 70 weeks. vs 24, (reconciliation for iniquities) vs 25 (Baptims of Messiah at end of 69th week, 27 AD) and vs 26 (crucifiction 3 1/2 years AFTER the Baptism, 30 A.D.) all confirm that the the 70th week directly followed the 69th week. Now what else happens in the 70th week as recorded in verse 27? In the middle of the week, 3 1/2 years into it, He shall put an(CORRECTION; SHOULD READ SHALL CAUSE) end to sacrifice and offering. Thus vs 27 also confirms that the Messiah is the he who puts (CORRECTION; SHOULD READ SHALL CAUSE) an end to sacrifice and offering (in it's lawful use) and confirms the covenant. The sacrifice and offering had it's realistic end towards the end of the generation.

In order that the gentiles may come in.

(But the church is not composed of jew/gentile any longer, so this idea of a number of gentiles 'coming in' to a gentile church then follwed by a restoration of Jews is foreign to Pauls writings.) Gentiles do not come into the church. People of All nations (no more jew/Gentile) come into the church of God in Christ. Romans was written well after the discussions in the church of Jew/Gentile and Paul himself being the leader in the evangelization of the greeks/Romans would not have used Gentiles to refer to such a long time period as 2000 years of eternal church that had the barrier of Jew/Gentile forever removed. The Barrier (laws and ordinances and the reasons for a geneologic race(seed of Messiah) have both been fulfilled and broken down. NO More Jew/Gentile since the crucifiction. All done. Zip, Zilch, (quoting Austin Powers). Nadda, ZIPPITT. All over with. Nailed to the cross; Abolished. Buried in his flesh, SLAIN; See verses below. No more geneologic records since destruction of Jerusalem. No more distinction of races with God. If there is a teaching concerning a disctinction of race, it's not taught by Christ or Paul. Perhaps taught by the Pharisees. Scofield has lied to us. Do you believe Paul or Scofield again, although a dramatic statement, is very rightfully asked, because they teach contrary doctrines. Gal 3:16.

Not if you look at vs 27 and the last week. It is all there in the last week. But the last week ends with Christ's glorious appearing. Then the Jewish people, (that what remains of it) will be God's people again.

Thats not in Daniel 9 at all....??? must be associating it with the following Generation that Christ talked about.

And we've already agreed that God's people through all generations are people of all nations (no more Jew, no more gentile) who God calls the "Israel of God" Gal 6:16,

Eph, 3:21 Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amenand

who are without the barrier of the law and ordinances.

Eph 2:15,16. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
And it's been this way from the beginning of the world.
Eph 3:9And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, (the church of any people under Headship of Christ) which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Well, Is 61:2 is clear and repeated only half in the gospels, indicating a half fulfillment only. The good part is happening since Jesus first coming. The rest (the worst part) is yet to come at His second coming.

The worst part came upon Jerusalem and the unbelieving Jews in 70 AD and perhaps again in 135 AD. It waits (and in some many cases it is applied in the earthly lives) for all who do not recieve the Gospel of the Creator in the 'year of acceptance'. We are born under wrath, under law. John 3:18 says that the he who doesnt' believe on Him is condemended already because he has not beleived on Jesus. in vs 3:36, the wrath of God (judgement under Adam) remains on those who do not recieve HIM. Thus to reject Christ as Lord is the same as recieving vengence and wrath of God. Present and future. Again, this is what Jesus teaches in John 9 as quoted 2 times before. The two lines of 61:2 are the same occurance. Jesus has been annointed vs 1 and is proclaiming Himself as Lord for their acceptance. Gods vengence and wrath already rests on those who do not and will not recieve Him as Lord and this has already been taught by John the Baptist and prophecied. Jesus emphasises salvation from the predetermined vengence. Most likely those in attendance knew the rest of the reading.


The following quote for your information.

"Jonathan Williams recorded in his LEGIONS OF SATAN, 1781, that Cornwallis revealed to Washington that "a holy war will now begin on America, and when it is ended America will be supposedly the citadel of freedom, but her millions will unknowingly be loyal subjects to the Crown." Cornwallis went on to explain what would seem to be a self contradiction: "Your churches will be used to teach the Jew's religion and in less than two hundred years the whole nation will be working for divine world government. That government that they believe to be divine will be the British Empire. All religions will be permeated with Judaism without even being noticed by the masses, and they will all be under the invisible all-seeing eye of the Grand Architect of Freemasonry."​

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

 

[holdon]

Same question framed in a new way;

How is this a literal reading of the Bible when 69 weeks = 69 weeks and the 70th week = 2000 years? Me thinks it is not literal?

The 70th week is 7 years. But between the 69th and the 70th is a gap of undetermined duration.

 

[Micah68]

The 70th week is 7 years. But between the 69th and the 70th is a gap of undetermined duration.

Holden, You are saying it but this isn't proving it. I want literal proof, Please? Thank you.

 

[holdon]

NO, That's the point I've been trying to get across. The destruction isnt' mentioned or alluded to in Dan 9:24. The 6 things listed in vs 24 occur in the 490 years do not occur by the destruction of Jerusalem but by the first coming of Christ and the confirmation of the Gospel.

??? How do you figure that? Where is there the "coming" of Christ in vs 24? Where the Gospel? There are other things NOT mentioned in vs 24. Till Messiah it would be 69 weeks, but you don't see that in vs 24. So, I don't understand your reasoning at all.

The desolation is about vengence and judgement on that generation as John the Baptist and Jesus both taught and the physical ending of the table of laws and ordinances that had become idolatrous after their types had been fulfilled in the REALITY OF CHRIST's COMING.
Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

And when was that wrath? And how is it that "the physical ending of the table of laws and ordinances that had become idolatrous after their types had been fulfilled in the REALITY OF CHRIST's COMING."??? The epistle to the Hebrews treats abundantly about the change, but never calls it idolatry. Where do you get that from? And how does that help you anyway. Because if that "idolatry" was after Christ's death, did it stop within 7 years (ie. the 70th week)??? That answer is no, of course.

The destruction and desolation occur after the 490 year prophecy. The gap is a generation GAP (pun intended) between the first parts of vs 26 and 27 and their second parts as referred to by the words "who is to come" in vs 26 and "shall come" in vs 27.

Sorry, but there is no "shall come" or "come" in vs 27.

People were looking for the Messiah at the right time, just as the Samaritain woman at the well had stated. The wise men also knew and had calculated his birth.

Yeah, go figure how if the 490 years are consecutive years.

It has everything to do with God making a prophecy of 490 years (70 sevens) and fulfilling it in the way it was Given to the hearer. Daniel confirmed and believed the fulfillment of Jeremiahs 70 year prophecy and Jesus and many faithful confirmed the fulfillment of Daniels 490 year prophecy.

??? Where? How? Jesus Himself pointed at "the abomination" as a future thing. When was that? Not within 490 years after the decree, that's for sure.

Others in the city and Isreal were not looking for a Spirtual ETERNAL Messiah but a earthly temporal King Messiah before the remade world; no doubt propogated by the teachings of the rulers/Pharisees and Sanhedren, Zealots who desired revolt against the Lawful but seemingly oppressive Govt of Rome.

Again, His Baptism, His coming as Messiah (annointed son of God) ended the 69 weeks. 3 1/2 years later is Jesus was cut off, (a term signifying murdered) halfway through the 70th week. Your chronological reading has Messiah cut off to end the 69th week. This isn't so. His crucifiction must come within the actual 70 weeks because the reconciliation of iniquities is recorded in vs 24 as happening within the 70 weeks. vs 24

But is does happen within the 70 weeks. The only thing is Israel, that generation, has not been reconciled then not now.

(reconciliation for iniquities) vs 25 (Baptims of Messiah at end of 69th week, 27 AD) and vs 26 (crucifiction 3 1/2 years AFTER the Baptism, 30 A.D.) all confirm that the the 70th week directly followed the 69th week. Now what else happens in the 70th week as recorded in verse 27? In the middle of the week, 3 1/2 years into it, He shall put an end to sacrifice and offering.

But you think sacrifice and offering stopped with Jesus' death? Not at all. It continued till 68AD.

Thus vs 27 also confirms that the Messiah is the he who puts an end to sacrifice and offering

No, it is not Messiah in vs 27, but the coming prince. Big difference.

(But the church is not composed of jew/gentile any longer, so this idea of a number of gentiles 'coming in' to a gentile church then follwed by a restoration of Jews is foreign to Pauls writings.) Gentiles do not come into the church. People of All nations (no more jew/Gentile) come into the church of God in Christ. Romans was written well after the discussions in the church of Jew/Gentile and Paul himself being the leader in the evangelization of the greeks/Romans would not have used Gentiles to refer to such a long time period as 2000 years of eternal church that had the barrier of Jew/Gentile forever removed. The Barrier (laws and ordinances and the reasons for a geneologic race(seed of Messiah) have both been fulfilled and broken down. NO More Jew/Gentile since the crucifiction. All done. Zip, Zilch, (quoting Austin Powers). Nadda, ZIPPITT. All over with. Nailed to the cross; Abolished. Buried in his flesh, SLAIN; See verses below. No more geneologic records since destruction of Jerusalem. No more distinction of races with God. If there is a teaching concerning a disctinction of race, it's not taught by Christ or Paul. Perhaps taught by the Pharisees. Scofield has lied to us. Do you believe Paul or Scofield again, although a dramatic statement, is very rightfully asked, because they teach contrary doctrines. Gal 3:16.
Thats not in Daniel 9 at all....??? must be associating it with the following Generation that Christ talked about.

You ramble much and it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

And we've already agreed that God's people through all generations are people of all nations (no more Jew, no more gentile) who God calls the "Israel of God" Gal 6:16,

Eph, 3:21 Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amenand

who are without the barrier of the law and ordinances.

Eph 2:15,16. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
And it's been this way from the beginning of the world.
Eph 3:9And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, (the church of any people under Headship of Christ) which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Well the Church, the body of Christ, is a NEW thing. It was a mystery (that's why you don't see it in Daniel nor anywhere in the OT). But it's not any longer.

Well, Is 61:2 is clear and repeated only half in the gospels, indicating a half fulfillment only. The good part is happening since Jesus first coming. The rest (the worst part) is yet to come at His second coming.

Oh, He is yet to come is He? I am really confused as to how you read your bible. But you agree there is a gap in Is 61:2.

The worst part came upon Jerusalem and the unbelieving Jews in 70 AD and perhaps again in 135 AD. It waits (and in some many cases it is applied in the earthly lives) for all who do not recieve the Gospel of the Creator in the 'year of acceptance'. We are born under wrath, under law. John 3:18 says that the he who doesnt' believe on Him is condemended already because he has not beleived on Jesus. in vs 3:36, the wrath of God (judgement under Adam) remains on those who do not recieve HIM. Thus to reject Christ as Lord is the same as recieving vengence and wrath of God. Present and future. Again, this is what Jesus teaches in John 9 as quoted 2 times before. The two lines of 61:2 are the same occurance. Jesus has been annointed vs 1 and is proclaiming Himself as Lord for their acceptance. Gods vengence and wrath already rests on those who do not and will not recieve Him as Lord and this has already been taught by John the Baptist and prophecied. Jesus emphasises salvation from the predetermined vengence. Most likely those in attendance knew the rest of the reading.

Oh, you see the unbelievers experiencing any wrath of God? Then or now? It's rather the other way around: many tribulations for the believers.

 

[holdon]

Holden, You are saying it but this isn't proving it. I want literal proof, Please? Thank you.

Read Dan 9:25, 26 and 27.
vs 25 Know therefore and understand: From the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah, the Prince, are seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks. The street and the moat shall be built again, even in troublous times. => that's 69 weeks unto Messiah. (if baptism then that would be 29AD)
vs 26 And after the sixty-two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, and shall have nothing; => Christ's crucifixion
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; => in 70AD. So, if 69 years, is 483 years, had elapsed until Messiah, and the destruction etc, is in 70AD we are already at 483+41=521 years. That's is way beyond the 490 years.
and the end thereof shall be with an overflow, and unto the end, war, -- the desolations determined. => An ongoing time of trouble till the end.
vs 27 And he => the coming prince of the destroying people of vs 26) shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week => this then is the 70th week. Much after the destructionand in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and because of the protection of abominations there shall be a desolator, even until that the consumption and what is determined shall be poured out upon the desolate. => this must be the end of the 70 weeks.