A Said Faith

[WordSword]

I believe it’s not commonly understood that an “apostate” is one who only professes to be in the faith but in truth has yet to be saved, i.e. reborn. Of all who profess to “confess Jesus is Lord” (Ro 10:9), there will always be some (“a little leaven”) who only “honor Me with their lips (confess); but their heart is far from Me (Mat 15:8). They “profess they know God; but in works they deny Him” (Tit 1:16). These are those James wrote of that “may say you have faith,” but “have no works” (Jas 2:17, 18).

No “works,” or in other words no “fruit of the Spirit!” Works, which is the Sprit’s fruit, cannot exist within man apart from faith, for faith always manifests works, thus all faith-professors will inevitably see for themselves whether or not they are in the faith by their lifestyle (Mat 12:33); and by the Spirit (Rom 8:16).

Apostates, for long periods of time can maintain the “tare” position, even “until the harvest” (Mat 13:30); and it is this hypocrisy that outwardly appears to be in the Body of Christ (Mat 24:24), but eventually is seen by all. These are the ones Scripture writes of, that fall or depart only from the doctrine of Grace, never having received the truth of Grace (2Ti 3:7; 4:3, 4); who have only received its knowledge but not its truth imparted (Heb 10:26), which is “the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls” (Jas 1:21).

I think one of the most encouraging confirmations of being in Christ that can be enjoyed is being ever aware that “God works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure” (Phl 2:13). This is inwardly manifested by noticing the prevalence of the ongoing desire or “will” to put God first, which aids us in repeatedly “putting off the old man” as it shows itself in its erroneous tempting’s, of which we need not to be “anxious” (Phl 4:6), but rather “cast” whatever it concerns us with “on Him” (1Pe 5:7), entrusting all to Him!

 

[disciple Clint]

I believe it’s not commonly understood that an “apostate” is one who only professes to be in the faith but in truth has yet to be saved, i.e. reborn. Of all who profess to “confess Jesus is Lord” (Ro 10:9), there will always be some (“a little leaven”) who only “honor Me with their lips (confess); but their heart is far from Me (Mat 15:8). They “profess they know God; but in works they deny Him” (Tit 1:16). These are those James wrote of that “may say you have faith,” but “have no works” (Jas 2:17, 18).

No “works,” or in other words no “fruit of the Spirit!” Works, which is the Sprit’s fruit, cannot exist within man apart from faith, for faith always manifests works, thus all faith-professors will inevitably see for themselves whether or not they are in the faith by their lifestyle (Mat 12:33); and by the Spirit (Rom 8:16).

Apostates, for long periods of time can maintain the “tare” position, even “until the harvest” (Mat 13:30); and it is this hypocrisy that outwardly appears to be in the Body of Christ (Mat 24:24), but eventually is seen by all. These are the ones Scripture writes of, that fall or depart only from the doctrine of Grace, never having received the truth of Grace (2Ti 3:7; 4:3, 4); who have only received its knowledge but not its truth imparted (Heb 10:26), which is “the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls” (Jas 1:21).

I think one of the most encouraging confirmations of being in Christ that can be enjoyed is being ever aware that “God works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure” (Phl 2:13). This is inwardly manifested by noticing the prevalence of the ongoing desire or “will” to put God first, which aids us in repeatedly “putting off the old man” as it shows itself in its erroneous tempting’s, of which we need not to be “anxious” (Phl 4:6), but rather “cast” whatever it concerns us with “on Him” (1Pe 5:7), entrusting all to Him!

Apostasy, from the Greek word apostasia, means “a defiance of an established system or authority; a rebellion; an abandonment or breach of faith.” In the first-century world, apostasy was a technical term for political revolt or defection. Just like in the first century, spiritual apostasy threatens the Body of Christ today. What is apostasy and how can I recognize it? | GotQuestions.org

 

[WordSword]

Apostasy, from the Greek word apostasia, means “a defiance of an established system or authority; a rebellion; an abandonment or breach of faith.” In the first-century world, apostasy was a technical term for political revolt or defection. Just like in the first century, spiritual apostasy threatens the Body of Christ today. What is apostasy and how can I recognize it? | GotQuestions.org

Hi, and appreciate the instructional reply! In all cases, revolts occur because of those who discover that they do not desire what they are wanting to depart from. They never progressed to the point of truly wanting what they thought they would like.

To me, this exemplifies the same as separating oneself from the doctrines of Christianity because it never became important enough to receive its import. I believe Heb 10:26 is a good example here: "if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the Truth", etc. . Continuing in our intentional sinning manifests we have only "received" or learned "the knowledge of the Truth," but have not received the Truth.

 

[disciple Clint]

Hi, and appreciate the instructional reply! In all cases, revolts occur because of those who discover that they do not desire what they are wanting to depart from. They never progressed to the point of truly wanting what they thought they would like.

To me, this exemplifies the same as separating oneself from the doctrines of Christianity because it never became important enough to receive its import. I believe Heb 10:26 is a good example here: "if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the Truth", etc. . Continuing in our intentional sinning manifests we have only "received" or learned "the knowledge of the Truth," but have not received the Truth.

I would then ask how we should account for the ministers, priests, and pastors who have done what you claim would not be done by those who know the faith.

 

[WordSword]

I would then ask how we should account for the ministers, priests, and pastors who have done what you claim would not be done by those who know the faith.

Reasonable question, but I'm uncertain that I fully understand your comment. It's my understand that one will not desire to leave the faith if he is truly in it.

 

[disciple Clint]

Reasonable question, but I'm uncertain that I fully understand your comment. It's my understand that one will not desire to leave the faith if he is truly in it.

And I say that the evidence proves otherwise.

 

[Butterball1]

Strong's Greek: 646. ἀποστασία (apostasia) -- defection, revolt

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

An apostate is one who has moved away from a previous standing, that being, left from a previous saved standing having fallen to a lost standing. One who was never saved standing has not changed, he was previously in a lost standing and still remains in that lost standing.

 

[WordSword]

Strong's Greek: 646. ἀποστασία (apostasia) -- defection, revolt

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

An apostate is one who has moved away from a previous standing, that being, left from a previous saved standing having fallen to a lost standing. One who was never saved standing has not changed, he was previously in a lost standing and still remains in that lost standing.

Hi and appreciate and like the instructional reply! My belief is that there are two standings one can make concerning the Lord Jesus. Nominal, which is in word only (Mat 15:8) and not in the heart nor in righteousness; or in faith that manifests in fruit (deeds) of the Spirit.

Jhn 15:2 "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit,.... There are two sorts of branches in Christ the vine; the one sort are such who have only an historical faith in him, believe but for a time, and are removed; they are such who only profess to believe in him, as Simon Magus did; are in him by profession only. . .

"they submit to outward ordinances, become church members, and so are reckoned to be in Christ, being in a church state, as the churches of Judea and Thessalonica, and others, are said, in general, to he in Christ; though it is not to be thought that every individual person in these churches were truly and savingly in him. . .

"These branches are unfruitful ones; what fruit they seemed to have, withers away, and proves not to be genuine fruit; what fruit they bring forth is to themselves, and not to the glory of God, being none of the fruits of his Spirit and grace." -John Gill (1697-1771)
John 15 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible




"Every branch in me - Everyone that is a true follower of me, that is united to me by faith, and that truly derives grace and strength from me, as the branch does from the vine. The word “branch” includes all the boughs, and the smallest tendrils that shoot out from the parent stalk.

"Jesus here says that he sustains the same relation to his disciples that a parent stalk does to the branches; but this does not denote any physical or incomprehensible union. It is a union formed by believing on him; resulting from our feeling our dependence on him and our need of him; from embracing him as our Saviour, Redeemer, and Friend." -Albert Barnes (1798-1870)

 

[Butterball1]

Hi and appreciate and like the instructional reply! My belief is that there are two standings one can make concerning the Lord Jesus. Nominal, which is in word only (Mat 15:8) and not in the heart nor in righteousness; or in faith that manifests in fruit (deeds) of the Spirit.

Jhn 15:2 "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit,.... There are two sorts of branches in Christ the vine; the one sort are such who have only an historical faith in him, believe but for a time, and are removed; they are such who only profess to believe in him, as Simon Magus did; are in him by profession only. . .

"they submit to outward ordinances, become church members, and so are reckoned to be in Christ, being in a church state, as the churches of Judea and Thessalonica, and others, are said, in general, to he in Christ; though it is not to be thought that every individual person in these churches were truly and savingly in him. . .

"These branches are unfruitful ones; what fruit they seemed to have, withers away, and proves not to be genuine fruit; what fruit they bring forth is to themselves, and not to the glory of God, being none of the fruits of his Spirit and grace." -John Gill (1697-1771)
John 15 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible




"Every branch in me - Everyone that is a true follower of me, that is united to me by faith, and that truly derives grace and strength from me, as the branch does from the vine. The word “branch” includes all the boughs, and the smallest tendrils that shoot out from the parent stalk.

"Jesus here says that he sustains the same relation to his disciples that a parent stalk does to the branches; but this does not denote any physical or incomprehensible union. It is a union formed by believing on him; resulting from our feeling our dependence on him and our need of him; from embracing him as our Saviour, Redeemer, and Friend." -Albert Barnes (1798-1870)

The idea of apostate is one who falls from a saved position to a lost one. An always fallen person cannot fall for, of course, he is already fallen.

 

[WordSword]

The idea of apostate is one who falls from a saved position to a lost one. An always fallen person cannot fall for, of course, he is already fallen.

It's my understanding that one can fall only from the doctrine of grace, but not from what is teaches if received into the heart, instead of just in the head; knowledge only but not practical application. One will not want to fall from grace once understood and received, because then God continues to ensure we do not again desire our old man, but rather we "desire to do His good pleasure" (Phl 2:13). God only works this in those He knows are genuine, that's why then it's permanent.

 

[Butterball1]

It's my understanding that one can fall only from the doctrine of grace, but not from what is teaches if received into the heart, instead of just in the head; knowledge only but not practical application. One will not want to fall from grace once understood and received, because then God continues to ensure we do not again desire our old man, but rather we "desire to do His good pleasure" (Phl 2:13). God only works this in those He knows are genuine, that's why then it's permanent.

God has not put the onus upon Himself to see to it that the Christian for a certain guarantee will perservere and be saved. The onus has been put upon the Christian to persevere, (2 Peter 1:10; 2 Corinthians 13:5; 2 John 1:8; Jude 1:21, Hebrews 3:12; etc) those that do not 'keep themselves' will become fallen, apostates, reprobates (1 Corinthians 9:27).

 

[Danthemailman]

Hi and appreciate and like the instructional reply! My belief is that there are two standings one can make concerning the Lord Jesus. Nominal, which is in word only (Mat 15:8) and not in the heart nor in righteousness; or in faith that manifests in fruit (deeds) of the Spirit.

Jhn 15:2 "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit,.... There are two sorts of branches in Christ the vine; the one sort are such who have only an historical faith in him, believe but for a time, and are removed; they are such who only profess to believe in him, as Simon Magus did; are in him by profession only. . .

"they submit to outward ordinances, become church members, and so are reckoned to be in Christ, being in a church state, as the churches of Judea and Thessalonica, and others, are said, in general, to he in Christ; though it is not to be thought that every individual person in these churches were truly and savingly in him. . .

"These branches are unfruitful ones; what fruit they seemed to have, withers away, and proves not to be genuine fruit; what fruit they bring forth is to themselves, and not to the glory of God, being none of the fruits of his Spirit and grace." -John Gill (1697-1771)
John 15 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

"Every branch in me - Everyone that is a true follower of me, that is united to me by faith, and that truly derives grace and strength from me, as the branch does from the vine. The word “branch” includes all the boughs, and the smallest tendrils that shoot out from the parent stalk.

"Jesus here says that he sustains the same relation to his disciples that a parent stalk does to the branches; but this does not denote any physical or incomprehensible union. It is a union formed by believing on him; resulting from our feeling our dependence on him and our need of him; from embracing him as our Saviour, Redeemer, and Friend." -Albert Barnes (1798-1870)

Good points. In regards to John 15:2, Greek scholar AT Robertson comments - Two kinds of connexion with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh feron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15:2 (KJV) - Robertson's Word Pictures (NT)

Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

 

[Danthemailman]

It's my understanding that one can fall only from the doctrine of grace, but not from what is teaches if received into the heart, instead of just in the head; knowledge only but not practical application. One will not want to fall from grace once understood and received, because then God continues to ensure we do not again desire our old man, but rather we "desire to do His good pleasure" (Phl 2:13). God only works this in those He knows are genuine, that's why then it's permanent.

I find it interesting that those who teach a genuine born again believer can lose their salvation, also in many cases, teach salvation by works. I also find it interesting that ALL false religions and cults that teach salvation by works also strongly support NOSAS, which has always been a major red flag for me.

Such people seem to believe that God only preserves those who preserve themselves, as if it's up to us to pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps and help God keep us saved, as if His provision is insufficient, yet God's Word says in Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

Those who permanently fall away from a state of professing adherence to the Christian faith, demonstrate they were never truly born again from the start. (1 John 2:19) There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

 

[WordSword]

God has not put the onus upon Himself to see to it that the Christian for a certain guarantee will perservere and be saved. The onus has been put upon the Christian to persevere, (2 Peter 1:10; 2 Corinthians 13:5; 2 John 1:8; Jude 1:21, Hebrews 3:12; etc) those that do not 'keep themselves' will become fallen, apostates, reprobates (1 Corinthians 9:27).

Always like the sincerity of your comments and appreciate your replies! Also the passages you've presented are highly applicable concerning the subject at hand.

I believe the two primary means within Christianity for glorifying God concerns differentiating between that which is godly source, and that which manifests it. The "onus" of what Scripture reveals to be on the believer is manifesting salvation, but it is often mistaken to conceive (not suspecting any individual) that providing the source of salvation equates to effecting it by obedience. Obedience effects only manifestation of grace and cannot effect it (we merely require sincere desire for grace). It's the source (Christ) of salvation that effects obedience and never the opposite; and this is where most of the hindrance of growth in Christ rests in us.

The passages you've supplied do represent the responsibilities (onus) of the believer, but they (i.e. fruit of the Spirit) have to do with the manifestations of grace and are not elements of effecting (producing) grace, which only the Lord Jesus can do. For example, "to keep himself unspotted from the world" (Jas 1:27) has to do with the believer seeking that this is to be permanently seen in the lifestyle for manifesting salvation, not effecting it; and "ye shall never fall" (2Pe 1:10) will be the definite result and evidence (manifestation) of it. If God is working in you it will be permanently seen.

For the believer it's all about growing in and manifesting grace, for God is the only source of grace. If the descriptions of what Scripture reveals as godly is not seen or ceases to be seen in one professing to be a believer, it manifests He has not "worked" in him (Phl 2:13), because what God does permanently, no man--including self, can undo! If it says He works in us to "desire and do," and it's not permanently seen in us, it's only counterfeit-obedience from "the old man" which will soon show itself in a ceasing interest in God.

 

[WordSword]

I find it interesting that those who teach a genuine born again believer can lose their salvation, also in many cases, teach salvation by works. I also find it interesting that ALL false religions and cults that teach salvation by works also strongly support NOSAS, which has always been a major red flag for me.

Such people seem to believe that God only preserves those who preserve themselves, as if it's up to us to pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps and help God keep us saved, as if His provision is insufficient, yet God's Word says in Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

Those who permanently fall away from a state of professing adherence to the Christian faith, demonstrate they were never truly born again from the start. (1 John 2:19) There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

Good commentation Brother! How genuine we are in desiring to apply godliness determines the level if its understanding and practice (He only gives what we're prepared for). One difficulty that keeps the believer deep-seeking in the Word is the fact that Scripture often reads difficult in growth matters, resulting in appearing to oppose the eternal security of those reborn, but in depth it doesn't, requiring sufficient Word-knowledge for God to provide the understanding. A constant rereading, esp. the NT is the sure method (and it doesn't have to be much reading at a given time if done often enough).

 

[Butterball1]

Always like the sincerity of your comments and appreciate your replies! Also the passages you've presented are highly applicable concerning the subject at hand.

I believe the two primary means within Christianity for glorifying God concerns differentiating between that which is godly source, and that which manifests it. The "onus" of what Scripture reveals to be on the believer is manifesting salvation, but it is often mistaken to conceive (not suspecting any individual) that providing the source of salvation equates to effecting it by obedience. Obedience effects only manifestation of grace and cannot effect it (we merely require sincere desire for grace). It's the source (Christ) of salvation that effects obedience and never the opposite; and this is where most of the hindrance of growth in Christ rests in us.

The passages you've supplied do represent the responsibilities (onus) of the believer, but they (i.e. fruit of the Spirit) have to do with the manifestations of grace and are not elements of effecting (producing) grace, which only the Lord Jesus can do. For example, "to keep himself unspotted from the world" (Jas 1:27) has to do with the believer seeking that this is to be permanently seen in the lifestyle for manifesting salvation, not effecting it; and "ye shall never fall" (2Pe 1:10) will be the definite result and evidence (manifestation) of it. If God is working in you it will be permanently seen.

For the believer it's all about growing in and manifesting grace, for God is the only source of grace. If the descriptions of what Scripture reveals as godly is not seen or ceases to be seen in one professing to be a believer, it manifests He has not "worked" in him (Phl 2:13), because what God does permanently, no man--including self, can undo! If it says He works in us to "desire and do," and it's not permanently seen in us, it's only counterfeit-obedience from "the old man" which will soon show itself in a ceasing interest in God.

Salvation is of God yet God saves those who obey therefore in that sense obedience to God's will does save (Hebrews 5:9), hence we have verses they teach "save yourselves" Acts 2:40; "save thyself' 1 Timothy 4:16; 'cleansed ourselves" 2 Corinthians 7:1; "you purified your souls" 1 Peter 1:22. Since obedience to God's will gains salvation, then continued obedience (keep yourself, examine yourself, etc) is necessary to keep the promise of salvation. There are the present tense verbs as "believeth" (John 3:16) and "walketh" (1 John 1:7) that means one must not only obey by believing and walking but must continue on believing and walking to keep the promise of salvation. Even Charles Stanley understood the simplicity of this when he wrote "If our salvation is gained through believing in Christ, doesn’t it make sense that salvation would be lost if we quit believing?” (Eternal Security — Can You Be Sure?, Nashville: Oliver Nelson, 1990. 73). Yet he is not able to solve his problem or get around the present tense.

So when James says to the Christian "to keep himself unspotted from the world" the accountability and responsibility is upon the Christian to do so and the present tense of "keep" shows it is an ongoing, sustained (life-long) keeping. So obedience procures the promise of God's salvation and CONTINUED obedience is required to maintain the promise. For if the Christian fails and turns from God and altogether quits obeying God and becomes spotted with sin (returns to wallowing in the mire of sin) he loses that promise of eternal life. James goes on to write "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." Those bretrhen, Christians who do not keep themselves are now called "sinners" in need of conversion to be saved again from spiritual death.

Philippians 2:12-13 it is said of those Christians in Philippi "as ye have always obeyed". We must obey as Christ obeyed (Philippians 2:7-8). God does work in those who are conditionally obeying Him and God continues to work in those who continue to obey Him...not in those who disobey Him. If God commands me to do A, B and C and I refuse and disobey or I do X, Y and Z then God is not working in me, I am doing my own righteousness that will not save. Not until I do A, B and C can it be said God is working in me. Had they quit working out their salvation then God is no longer working in them, they become lost in sin of disobedience to God's will. Man clearly has a role in his own salvation and must keep fulfilling that role unto death..."This verse infers human free will. Paul does not say "work for" but "work out". One cannot earn or merit eternal life ( Luk_17:10 ), yet man has duties and responsibilities in reference to the salvation given him by God ( Rom_6:1 ff; Eph_2:10 ; Tit_2:14-15 ). The expression "your own salvation" reminds us that ultimately we have the final say-so over whether we will end up saved or lost. Our cooperation is needed. Barclay reminds us, “Without man's co-operation, even God is helpless. A man may be ill and the doctor able to prescribe the drugs that will cure him; but the man will not be cured until he takes them and he may stubbornly refuse all persuasion... It is never God who withholds salvation ( 2Pe_3:9 ); it is always man who deprives himself of it ( Act_13:46 )” (p. 42)." Dunagan Commentary
Verse 13 gives the reason, the motivation Christians are to work out their own salvation because it is God working in you. "The previous verse (verse 12) guards against the interpretation that says that God miraculously or mysteriously overrides the free will of individuals. If God does, then 2:12 is meaningless, that is, there is no way that Christians could fail to obey it." God therefore does not override the Christian's free will causing him to obey guaranteeing the Christian's salvation. Those Christians that fall away from working out their salvation will be lost.

Philppians 1:5-6 Paul's confidence was in the fact they had remained "in the gospel from the first day until now" unlike some of the Christians in Galatian (Galatians 1:6-7). Those in Philippi persevered "from the first day until now" by keeping themselves in the gospel, kept on working out their own salvation and not by any direct, miraculous act of God against their will causing them to persevere. Verse 6 does not teach "a "once saved, always saved", or Paul's confidence in the "perseverance of the saints". Paul clearly taught that true Christians could become unfaithful ( Gal 5:4 ). Yet their past (and up to the present) record is a good indication that they were serious about serving God and would continue to do so, especially in the light of the fact that this faithful service had been given even during a time of persecution"......the perfect tense of "confident" shows Paul's confidence was based upon past experiences of those Philppians remaining in the gospel and not upon some direct, miraculous work of God upon them causing them to continue in that work.


There are many warnings, admonishments given to the Christian about falling away, becoming an apostate even examples are give. The attempt usually made to get around those who fall is the idea they were "never really saved". Yet the "never really saved" does not deal with falling, becoming an apostate. Those who are fallen cannot fall for they are already fallen. Therefore fallen means those whose postion has changed from saved state to a lost one. For is one only faked his belief, did not really trust in Christ or whatever terminolgy one chooses to use, that person was never saved always fallen therefore cannot fall. Only those who are truly saved can fall.

 

[WordSword]

Salvation is of God yet God saves those who obey therefore in that sense obedience to God's will does save (Hebrews 5:9),

I see it that obedience isn't possible unless you're saved, because if it's not done after the Spirit of God, it's counterfeit works of "the old man."