A re-examination of nothing

[EnemyPartyII]

The Judge will say, "Floatingaxe, get over yourself. Lighten up. I never said masturbation is a sin, and I gave you sexuality as a gift from me. I also gave sexuality and the capacity to love and to marry to gay people, so please stop judging them and calling them names and do what Jesus told you. Love your neighbor and stop presuming to judge them."

I strongly believe this is the case.

I believe the judge is going to shake his head sadly about a lot of people and say "I made a wonderful world full of beautiful things and wondrous experience, and all you did with your life was obsess over outdated, out of context, obscure Bible verses, and how they pertained to other people"

 

[Ohioprof]

Well then I would say to prayerfull read the Bible and let the Holy Spirit lead.

But be always aware that one's reading of the Bible is just one's own interpretation, always flawed, never complete, never the "truth." It's just one's beliefs. We see "through as glass darkly." That means all of us.

Some people confuse their own beliefs with God's word, and this is a dangerous error, because it leads to a refusal to listen to other viewpoints, a refusal to recognize that there are different ways of understanding truth. It can lead to too much ego, to a self-righteousness that comes from the illusion that one has grasped the "truth."

 

[Ohioprof]

When I said I don't have the energy I mean just that. I am recovering from leukemia, chronic fatigue syndrome, hepatitis c, and a host of other illnesses praise be to God and I have very little if any productive energy on some days. This is one of those days. But I will give you my take on this subject later.

I would like to ask that if we have an interchange about the subject that you speak american english and not the dialect you speak a lot on the forum.

I have difficulty understanding it and am a bit dyslexic with some slowdown of cognitive function when I'm extremely fatigued. So could you do that please?

I'm so sorry to hear this. You are in my prayers, and I am holding you in the light.

 

[Ohioprof]

I promised Moriah that I would elaborate on my thoughts about masturbation and sin. This message regards masturbation in a heterosexual marriage. It can either involve self masturbation or masturbation of your husband or wife. The reason I am addressing one group at a time is because any replies using different groups could be confusing. I hope that I do not exceed our morality rules by this post. If so, I pray that someone tells me or a mod picks it up and deletes it. My commentary follows.

Mirriam-Webster Online Dictionary defines masturbation as erotic stimulation especially of one's own genital organs commonly resulting in [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] and achieved by manual or other bodily contact exclusive of sexual intercourse, by instrumental manipulation, occasionally by sexual fantasies, or by various combinations of these agencies.

Personally I believe that masturbation in a heterosexual relationship can be normal, healthy and pleasurable. From a psychological point of view, masturbation is only harmful if it interferes with, detracts from, or becomes a substitute for intercourse.

However, masturbation can become sinful. If a marriage partner fantasizes about anyone besides the person he or she is married to during masturbation then I believe they have committed the sin of adultery as Jesus expanded the definition below in the book of Matthew.

Matt 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

It is logical to deduce that fantasizing about another person than one's marital partner is another way of 'looking at them' so I think that the above scripture applies. And as both Old and New Testament law states, adultery is sin and we are not to partake of it.

An interesting, expanded commentary is given by Jamieson, Fausset & Brown. They state, "We are not to suppose, from the word here used - "adultery" - that our Lord means to restrict the breach of this commandment to married persons, or to criminal sexual intercourse with such. The expressions, "whosoever looketh," and "looketh upon a woman," seem clearly to extend the range of this commandment to all forms of impurity, and the counsels which follow-as they most certainly were intended for all, whether married or unmarried-seem to confirm this..."

God bless,

The problem with your argument is that you give heterosexuals a pass, while leaving no place for gay people to express our sexuality, and that is wrong, my friend. Wrong of you.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

But be always aware that one's reading of the Bible is just one's own interpretation, always flawed, never complete, never the "truth." It's just one's beliefs. We see "through as glass darkly." That means all of us.

Some people confuse their own beliefs with God's word, and this is a dangerous error, because it leads to a refusal to listen to other viewpoints, a refusal to recognize that there are different ways of understanding truth. It can lead to too much ego, to a self-righteousness that comes from the illusion that one has grasped the "truth."

hmm, no one here would do that, surely???

 

[Ohioprof]

The Bible constantly says to keep yourselves pure and to keep away from sexual immorality. In other words..save it for marriage!

Furthermore, God's given us all consciences which let us know when something is wrong.

It's just an assumption on your part that masturbation is "sexual impurity." I don't see anything wrong with it at all, whether a person is married or single. Why are some people so afraid of sex? Shouldn't folks be out protesting the war instead of getting so preoccupied with harmless masturbation? War kills people. Masturbation is healthy.

"Saving it for marriage" should, of course, include same-sex marriage, and it should mean, in my view, saving sexual intimacy with a spouse for marriage.

 

[lincolngreen50]

yes.

Then you will have no problem when scripture is quoted to you ie 1Cor6:9

 

[Ohioprof]

I agree that the conscience isn't fool proof, but take a relatively unbiased conscience in context with scripture and I think the results will be less than wanted for the sexually immoral's agenda.

What is the "sexually immoral's agenda?"

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

But be always aware that one's reading of the Bible is just one's own interpretation, always flawed, never complete, never the "truth." It's just one's beliefs. We see "through as glass darkly." That means all of us.

Some people confuse their own beliefs with God's word, and this is a dangerous error, because it leads to a refusal to listen to other viewpoints, a refusal to recognize that there are different ways of understanding truth. It can lead to too much ego, to a self-righteousness that comes from the illusion that one has grasped the "truth."

There are some universal 'truths' about God, regardless of individiual interpretation. One is that God is good, another is that God loves us. Those are undeniable things, aren't they? I understnd your point of redirecting arguments and passing judgements, but I still think we are meant to use the discernment we are given to make smart choices.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Then you will have no problem when scripture is quoted to you ie 1Cor6:9

Huh?

No version of the Nicean creed I ever read says anything about believing the most basic, simplistic first read version of the Bible... maybe if you were more specific as to what part of the creed you are refering to?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

There are some universal 'truths' about God, regardless of individiual interpretation. One is that God is good, another is that God loves us. Those are undeniable things, aren't they? I understnd your point of redirecting arguments and passing judgements, but I still think we are meant to use the discernment we are given to make smart choices.

Fair enough.

How does anything you just said imply that same sex relationships are bad?

 

[Ohioprof]

There are some universal 'truths' about God, regardless of individiual interpretation. One is that God is good, another is that God loves us. Those are undeniable things, aren't they? I understnd your point of redirecting arguments and passing judgements, but I still think we are meant to use the discernment we are given to make smart choices.

I agree with you. But we must be careful not to assume that our interpretations of the Bible, or our personal beliefs, are "universal truths." They are attempts to understand universal truths, not the truths themselves.

 

[Ohioprof]

I have finally caught up to the posts, and I can go back to bed. My daughter and I are both sick with the flu. Poor little girl, she was sent home yesterday with a fever, and she has been miserable. So have I. And we both had flu shots. We must both stay home today and recover.

Congrats to David on your upcoming wedding.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I have finally caught up to the posts, and I can go back to bed. My daughter and I are both sick with the flu. Poor little girl, she was sent home yesterday with a fever, and she has been miserable. So have I. And we both had flu shots. We must both stay home today and recover.

Congrats to David on your upcoming wedding.

Get well soon.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Fair enough.

How does anything you just said imply that same sex relationships are bad?

it doesn't. I was only talking about laying off of passing judgements on people, thats not what we are to do.

The issue i was pointing out is that if you constantly reiterate that 'well everything I do and believe is tainted and nothing before God', then you end up believing in nothing. The bible gives us an opportunity to intimately understand the mind of God, we are foolish to try to bypass or reason through that for our own emotions.

One of the arguments I've seen come up about the same-sex sex issue is that people say 'well God made me this way so it must be allright'. Think about the reasoning there. Thats like saying "well God made me with an impulse to steal, so He must want me to". The issue with that type of thinking is that it originates out of self. If you believe God makes exceptions to His rules, then so be it. I for one am in no position to do such.

I hope you can understand my position better now.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

it doesn't. I was only talking about laying off of passing judgements on people, thats not what we are to do.

The issue i was pointing out is that if you constantly reiterate that 'well everything I do and believe is tainted and nothing before God', then you end up believing in nothing. The bible gives us an opportunity to intimately understand the mind of God, we are foolish to try to bypass or reason through that for our own emotions.

One of the arguments I've seen come up about the same-sex sex issue is that people say 'well God made me this way so it must be allright'. Think about the reasoning there. Thats like saying "well God made me with an impulse to steal, so He must want me to". The issue with that type of thinking is that it originates out of self. If you believe God makes exceptions to His rules, then so be it. I for one am in no position to do such.

I hope you can understand my position better now.

The difference being, as I have said before... is that if your natural impulse harms others, then its probably selfish, if your natural impulse harms no one but can bring you closer to God, then it probably comes from him.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

The difference being, as I have said before... is that if your natural impulse harms others, then its probably selfish, if your natural impulse harms no one but can bring you closer to God, then it probably comes from him.

Thats not always necessarily true by biblical standards. I understand how you are comparing basic secular morality to the desires of God, and in many ways they are the same, although we are treading awful close to the 'living a good life/works based salvation' camp.

I actually felt the same way for a long time, until I actually bothered to start reading the bible and understanding God. I had always believed God would understand my ignorance, but the more I thought about it, I chose to be ignorant for the sake of anti-conformity.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Thats not always necessarily true by biblical standards. I understand how you are comparing basic secular morality to the desires of God, and in many ways they are the same, although we are treading awful close to the 'living a good life/works based salvation' camp.

I actually felt the same way for a long time, until I actually bothered to start reading the bible and understanding God. I had always believed God would understand my ignorance, but the more I thought about it, I chose to be ignorant for the sake of anti-conformity.

can you think of any reason why an act that harms no one, and leads to a net increase in hapiness and contededness would be unpleasing to God? Help me out here.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

can you think of any reason why an act that harms no one, and leads to a net increase in hapiness and contededness would be unpleasing to God? Help me out here.

If I did, then I'd put my own knowledge over that of God's. I don't know the reason why He commands certain things, and I don't question it. Just understand that even though we may not feel the same way about that, I'm not trying to oppress you in the process.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

You know what? This entire thing bes utterly futile. You can BEAT and BEAT and WHIP and CONDEMN and BERATE and CRITICIZE and PUNISH and SCARE and THREATEN and HARASS a homosexual all you want but in the end, it bes a homosexual and all the BEATING and WHIPPING and CRITICIZING and TWISTING OF HIS WORDS and CONDEMNATION and BERATING and INSULTING and ASCRIBING MALICIOUS MOTIVES TO HIM and THREATENING him with hellfire and trying to SCARE him and HARASSING him about his beliefs WILL NOT TURN ONE SINGLE HOMOSEXUAL INTO A HETEROSEXUAL. HE WILL STILL BE A HOMOSEXUAL AND NO AMOUNT OF SCREWING UP HIS WILLPOWER AND DETERMINATION -- OR YOURS FOR THAT MATTER -- WILL MAKE A SINGLE HAIR WHITE OR BLACK IN THAT DEPARTMENT.

GET REAL. ALL OF YOU. and STOP the TERRORIZING.