A Question

[DavidFirth]

nope.

So that means heaven will be full of heretics? I'm not following your line of thinking.

 

[DavidFirth]

Well, what does the Bible record Jesus as saying in John 6?

"If ye do not eat the flesh of the son of man nor drink his blood..........YE HAVE NOT LIFE."

That's pretty strong, wouldn't you agree?

Read further down where He says,

63 It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, are life.


Jesus never fed His flesh or His blood to people. He was speaking spiritually.

 

[ArmyMatt]

So that means heaven will be full of heretics? I'm not following your line of thinking.

no, heaven will not be full of heretics. but those who were heretics in this life, for those who genuinely sought God, will realize at death Who God really is, become Orthodox and be saved.

it doesn't make their heresy any less heretical, but we also don't condemn them. God won't condemn someone for their ignorance. this goes for everyone outside of canonical Orthodoxy.

 

[Light of the East]

I know Protestants who could rebut your post quite well. Condemning all of them by thinking as you do is not right.

Sorry.

I have ZERO respect for someone who is constantly told A.) the writings of the Early Fathers B.) the correct interpretation of the Bible C.) that their religion was made up by men in the last 500 years and D.) who keep their trusting sheep from finding the true Church by promoting errors, lies, and in some cases, outright theological garbage of a high quality.

I know of a young woman with whom I was friends who died because some Bible-thumper Pentecostalist type convinced her that she was healed of her diabetes and she stopped taking insulin. I've seen families ruined by Fundamentalist Bible thumper types who wouldn't know the love of Jesus if it smacked them in the head.

Perhaps you haven't been through what I've been through with these types and seen what I've seen because you are a cradle Catholic. Therefore, it is hard for you to see them in a true light.

The Early Fathers had NOTHING good to say about heresy or heretics, probably because they knew the damage they would do to the Church and to people.

I know I should pray for them, and sometimes I do manage a weak prayer, but more often than not, at least on these boards, my disrespect for them waves like a large flag. I'm talking mostly about the ones who are the leaders - the Jerry Falwells, Jimmy Swaggarts, John MacArthurs - and the apologists, who should know better because of their years of study, but who in their pride will not recant their errors.

 

[gzt]

Formal heresy is different from material heresy.

 

[buzuxi02]

It does not matter whether a group is heretical or a schismatic offshoot, they have no sacraments, no baptism, no communion. Eikonomia means baptism need not be repeated if some form and understanding is present in the rite. It becomes sacramental immediately after the confession of faith and renunciation of previous heresies and reception of the sacraments (chrismation and/or Communion).

 

[Light of the East]

Read further down where He says,

63 It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, are life.

Jesus never fed His flesh or His blood to people. He was speaking spiritually.

You are doing the same thing.....taking a verse out of context to prove your point. What Jesus was saying, if you look at the entire chapter, especially from verses 53 onward, is that the words He was speaking are spirit, therefore, if you do not HEAR THEM IN THE HOLY SPIRIT, they make no sense to you at all.

And the fact that the Early Church taught that the Eucharist is the very Body and Blood of Christ confirms this. There was no other teaching until the heretic Luther invented it and the Protestants followed, wave after wave. This fact alone should give the honest mind pause, but Protestants who deny the Real Presence come up with all kinds of theological and hermeneutical gymnastics to avoid the obvious - Jesus taught it, the Apostles learned it, and they taught it to the next generation. When I saw and understood that I left Protestantism forever.

Did I confuse you with another poster? I thought I saw you state you are Catholic, which apparently you are not.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Formal heresy is different from material heresy.

it's still heresy, but the latter is not necessarily condemnable.

 

[DavidFirth]

You are doing the same thing.....taking a verse out of context to prove your point. What Jesus was saying, if you look at the entire chapter, especially from verses 53 onward, is that the words He was speaking are spirit, therefore, if you do not HEAR THEM IN THE HOLY SPIRIT, they make no sense to you at all.

And the fact that the Early Church taught that the Eucharist is the very Body and Blood of Christ confirms this. There was no other teaching until the heretic Luther invented it and the Protestants followed, wave after wave. This fact alone should give the honest mind pause, but Protestants who deny the Real Presence come up with all kinds of theological and hermeneutical gymnastics to avoid the obvious - Jesus taught it, the Apostles learned it, and they taught it to the next generation. When I saw and understood that I left Protestantism forever.

Did I confuse you with another poster? I thought I saw you state you are Catholic, which apparently you are not.

You and I simply do not agree on much of anything you're talking about. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[DavidFirth]

no, heaven will not be full of heretics. but those who were heretics in this life, for those who genuinely sought God, will realize at death Who God really is, become Orthodox and be saved.

it doesn't make their heresy any less heretical, but we also don't condemn them. God won't condemn someone for their ignorance. this goes for everyone outside of canonical Orthodoxy.

Okay... well, thats certainly not Biblical.

 

[DavidFirth]

God bless you all.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Okay... well, thats certainly not Biblical.

sure it is. it's in Romans, Luke's Gospel, and hinted at in one of Peter's epistles.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Please elaborate. I am interested in what you think their wrong theology is.

I'm Catholic but I do not think all Protestants are heretics.

You don't have that particular luxury. Catholicism condemns all Protestant sects and theologies as 'heretical'; your personal opinion is inane on this. Let's look at what the orthodox Catholic Church teaches in Holy Tradition.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Most of them believe the Eucharist is a symbol of the body and blood and many of them believe it is, spiritually. So that makes all of them heretics?

Yes, that does indeed make all Protestants 'heretics'. Christ literally said in John chap. 6: "My Flesh is True Meat indeed; my blood is true drink indeed" and this view was the universal and unanimous belief of all the Church Fathers and of Holy Tradition of all Christendom until the Protestant Revolt with roughly two exceptions (Berengarius & the Waldenses).

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yes. Christ literally said in John chap. 6: "My Flesh is True Meat indeed; my blood is true drink indeed" and this view was the universal and unanimous believe of all the Church Fathers and of Holy Tradition of all Christendom until the Protestant Revolt with one or two exceptions (Berengarius & the Waldenses).

and when He says to eat, the word He uses is akin to a dog gnawing on a bone.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

My position since I got chrismated has been simple—-I worry about what I’m certain about—Orthodox sacraments are valid. Anything else I can’t be sure about. I hope there is grace in Protestant and Catholic sacraments, but don’t know. I prefer to concentrate on my religion and not look into the rear view mirror.

 

[AMM]

You are doing the same thing.....taking a verse out of context to prove your point. What Jesus was saying, if you look at the entire chapter, especially from verses 53 onward, is that the words He was speaking are spirit, therefore, if you do not HEAR THEM IN THE HOLY SPIRIT, they make no sense to you at all.

And the fact that the Early Church taught that the Eucharist is the very Body and Blood of Christ confirms this. There was no other teaching until the heretic Luther invented it and the Protestants followed, wave after wave. This fact alone should give the honest mind pause, but Protestants who deny the Real Presence come up with all kinds of theological and hermeneutical gymnastics to avoid the obvious - Jesus taught it, the Apostles learned it, and they taught it to the next generation. When I saw and understood that I left Protestantism forever.

Did I confuse you with another poster? I thought I saw you state you are Catholic, which apparently you are not.

Just want to jump in here. Luther didn't change the teaching of the Eucharist. As a former Lutheran, I can assure you that Luther and Lutherans have always insisted that the Eucharist is truly and physically the Most Precious and Holy Body and Blood of Christ.

Zwingli taught that it was symbolic only. Calvin taught that it had Christ's spiritual presence, but not his physical body and blood.

ETA: one popular hymn in Lutheran (and Anglican and Catholic) circles is actually a variation on the Cherubic Hymn. It's one of my favorites, and set to an enchanting tone.

Let all mortal flesh keep silence,
And with fear and trembling stand;
Ponder nothing earthly minded,
For with blessing in His hand,
Christ our God to earth descending
Comes our homage to demand.

King of kings, yet born of Mary,
As of old on earth He stood,
Lord of lords, in human vesture,
In the body and the blood;
He will give to all the faithful
His own self for heavenly food.

Rank on rank the host of heaven
Spreads its vanguard on the way,
As the Light of light descendeth
From the realms of endless day,
Comes the powers of hell to vanquish
As the darkness clears away.

At His feet the six winged seraph,
Cherubim with sleepless eye,
Veil their faces to the presence,
As with ceaseless voice they cry:
Alleluia, Alleluia
Alleluia, Lord Most High!

 

[Lukaris]

post deleted, it wasn’t mean or anything just a bunch of hoo ha.