A Question of intelligence...

[ClericJohn]

I really hope I don't anger anyone, or upset anyone here. But I must ask some questions. This seems to be the appropriate place. Now, it doesn't matter what or where my faith lies, or who I believe in. This discussion (hopefully) will turn toward the human end of things and leave the deified end out...

While reading through the various posts here, I see a distinct difference between 2 sides of one coin: Those who "KNOW" that what they believe in is the absolute truth and everyone else is wrong, and those who are intelligent enough to "know" that there can be more than one correct answer.

My question stems from this: Why do Christians (read: believers in Christ/Allah/Jewish/followers of most Abrahamic religions) insist on closing there minds?

I assume that it has something to do with belief/faith. If you "know" something to be true then there is no point in trying to understand another point of view. Personally I don't think you will get very far in any discussion like this as you are likely to anger the person you are talking to. This is my understanding, and as I said before, I wish no harm or hurt to anyone.

I am simply trying to understand why my discussions always lead to dead ends with my fellow Christians. I also can not understand why every question is answered by scripture. I always combat answers of that nature by quoting scripture myself, and end up making the same angry of me.

So another question would be: Why, if you insist on quoting ancient passages of text to me, may I not do the same to you? It never fails to hear someone say "Well, the bible says" to which I reply "Yes, But it also says..."

I don't mean for anyone to question there faith... I just don't understand why anyone would get upset when you can use the same weapons of conversion they use against you. My conversationalists leave feeling vulnerable and wondering why they never saw any of the things I comment on in the very same book they read.

If anyone can help me better understand the inner workings of the Christian mind, please let me know.

I feel like Christians are acting like they're better than I am. They may be, but I cant comprehend why I have to sit and listen to hours of preaching and doctrine and they will not even allow me one question.


Thanks for your help...
JRY

 

[Upisoft]

I hope my English will be good enough to tell you what I think on the subject.

Recently we had a big discussion on "to believe" problem. I will define the term "to believe" just to avoid some misunderstandings I had in that thread.

To believe - to think something is true without having a proof that it is true.

Let's go on. I'll start with description how children learn. Little children learn so many things. They learn how to focus their vision. Tthey learn how to control their muscles. They learn to distinguish sound we pronounce. And finally they learn words composed form those sounds and start to connect them to real objects. It is not uncommon to see a little child to do something over and over again until perfection. In that sense little children are "scientists". They make theories and then test them again and again.

After time the child will lean to talk and to ask questions. The child could see an unidentified object then ask you, "Daddy, what is that?". Say, you answer "This is cow". Because the child have trust in you he will believe you. This way the child continue to learn new things by believing others. The child would ask also other type questions. For example, "Daddy, why the rain is falling down"? It depend on the answers of such questions how the child will create his own reasoning system.

The child grows up and goes to school(or church). There he learns a lot of information including lessons on reasoning. After time the child start to rationalize all the new knowledge and see if it's consistent. If there is no contradiction, the belief in what he have leant grows up.

Science does not require that God does not exist and religions generally don't require that reality is unexplainable. So, science and religion can coexist without any problem. They can have separate belief systems that does not cover each other.

If you followed my thought till now, you will probably understand that everything you know is self consistent belief.

So, you have no right to question intelligence of a Christians, Muslims, etc. They are as good as you are.

 

[Sojourner<><]

I really hope I don't anger anyone, or upset anyone here. But I must ask some questions. This seems to be the appropriate place. Now, it doesn't matter what or where my faith lies, or who I believe in. This discussion (hopefully) will turn toward the human end of things and leave the deified end out...

While reading through the various posts here, I see a distinct difference between 2 sides of one coin: Those who "KNOW" that what they believe in is the absolute truth and everyone else is wrong, and those who are intelligent enough to "know" that there can be more than one correct answer.

My question stems from this: Why do Christians (read: believers in Christ/Allah/Jewish/followers of most Abrahamic religions) insist on closing there minds?

I assume that it has something to do with belief/faith. If you "know" something to be true then there is no point in trying to understand another point of view. Personally I don't think you will get very far in any discussion like this as you are likely to anger the person you are talking to. This is my understanding, and as I said before, I wish no harm or hurt to anyone.

I am simply trying to understand why my discussions always lead to dead ends with my fellow Christians. I also can not understand why every question is answered by scripture. I always combat answers of that nature by quoting scripture myself, and end up making the same angry of me.

So another question would be: Why, if you insist on quoting ancient passages of text to me, may I not do the same to you? It never fails to hear someone say "Well, the bible says" to which I reply "Yes, But it also says..."

I don't mean for anyone to question there faith... I just don't understand why anyone would get upset when you can use the same weapons of conversion they use against you. My conversationalists leave feeling vulnerable and wondering why they never saw any of the things I comment on in the very same book they read.

If anyone can help me better understand the inner workings of the Christian mind, please let me know.

I feel like Christians are acting like they're better than I am. They may be, but I cant comprehend why I have to sit and listen to hours of preaching and doctrine and they will not even allow me one question.


Thanks for your help...
JRY

I think that it's just not a fun thing for anybody to be stumped. You know, it makes you feel kind of stupid if you think you're supposed to have all the answers. IMO, nobody's above it.

BTW, faith is trust. The Christian simply puts his trust in the unseen.

 

[ClericJohn]

So, you have no right to question intelligence of a Christians, Muslims, etc. They are as good as you are.

But, I have every right. Because it is just those faiths that do not care to know what is going on around them. You never hear a Buddhist say "I am right and you are wrong and thats the way it is... if you don't agree you will burn in a fiery lake with brimstone and all..."

None of the eastern (read: Asian) religions seem to have that close mindedness.

I think that it's just not a fun thing for anybody to be stumped. You know, it makes you feel kind of stupid if you think you're supposed to have all the answers. IMO, nobody's above it.

That, I think, is correct. I agree that is it no fun to be turned on by everyone. Basically I cant see why the general populous doesn't understand rhetoric. Now your grasp of how people learn is mostly correct, however a enlightened person can see multiple angles of one thing.

So again, I say I have the right because they (the monotheist) are the ones that don't care to listen...
P.S. I totally agree that they are as GOOD as I am... but the religion is not what I am questioning; it's the product of said religion.

The Cleric

 

[us38]

To believe - to think something is true without having a proof that it is true.

That's not a very good definition of "believe", as literally everything would be a belief.

Verwirrung

-- D

 

[Sojourner<><]

But, I have every right. Because it is just those faiths that do not care to know what is going on around them. You never hear a Buddhist say "I am right and you are wrong and thats the way it is... if you don't agree you will burn in a fiery lake with brimstone and all..."

None of the eastern (read: Asian) religions seem to have that close mindedness.
That, I think, is correct. I agree that is it no fun to be turned on by everyone. Basically I cant see why the general populous doesn't understand rhetoric. Now your grasp of how people learn is mostly correct, however a enlightened person can see multiple angles of one thing.

So again, I say I have the right because they (the monotheist) are the ones that don't care to listen...
P.S. I totally agree that they are as GOOD as I am... but the religion is not what I am questioning; it's the product of said religion.

The Cleric

Just out of curiosity, what is it that monotheist have been unable to answer for you?

 

[Upisoft]

But, I have every right. Because it is just those faiths that do not care to know what is going on around them. You never hear a Buddhist say "I am right and you are wrong and thats the way it is... if you don't agree you will burn in a fiery lake with brimstone and all..."

None of the eastern (read: Asian) religions seem to have that close mindedness.

No, you have no right, because intelligence is not how open minded you are.

 

[billwald]

Person's origional beliefs are formed by his parent's beliefs and their attitude toward the child. It takes extra ordinary experience or evidence to change one's origional beliefs (world view).

 

[Upisoft]

That's not a very good definition of "believe", as literally everything would be a belief.

Verwirrung

-- D

OK. Give me some other definition of "to believe", that define smaller set of things as a belief. Then redefine those that you left without definition. I'm curious.

 

[Upisoft]

Person's origional beliefs are formed by his parent's beliefs and their attitude toward the child. It takes extra ordinary experience or evidence to change one's origional beliefs (world view).

I agree. However, in some cases, it is impossible to change the mind of a person. Regardless how much evidence there is. You may call them stubborn or close minded, but that does not mean they're not intelligent as OP suggests.

 

[fuzzyh]

Person's origional beliefs are formed by his parent's beliefs and their attitude toward the child. It takes extra ordinary experience or evidence to change one's origional beliefs (world view).

I agree with you bill, but this doesn't prove beliefs right or wrong.

 

[ClericJohn]

Person's origional beliefs are formed by his parent's beliefs and their attitude toward the child. It takes extra ordinary experience or evidence to change one's origional beliefs (world view).

Then what changed mine? I do not follow my parents beliefs.

intelligence is not how open minded you are.

What is a good system of measurement?

However, in some cases, it is impossible to change the mind of a person. Regardless how much evidence there is. You may call them stubborn or close minded, but that does not mean they're not intelligent as OP suggests.

I will agree with you here. Which means you have supported quote 2. So if intelligence is not a good measurement of the ability to analyze your own beliefs and accept that you could be wrong, what is?

Just out of curiosity, what is it that monotheist have been unable to answer for you?

The only question monotheists have been unable to answer for me is "why?".

Why is your religion the "true" religion?
Why must you continually force feed me scripture?
Why do you pick and choose which laws of moses you are going to follow?
Why can I not do the same?

Some of these basic questions which make us question our OWN faith are the simple questions I ask every day. Not because I need to know for myself, but because I want followers of this "bible" to re-examine what they are reading. You CAN NOT pick and choose which verses to follow. Society says you can, but only because the church controls society. It always has, and always will. The only weapon seemingly useful is scripture. I can use that same weapon agents anyone. There for, the word of god does not harm me, and it will in turn harm anyone I see fit to use it on. Just as every other monotheist.

People seem to shut up inside themselves when there own guns are turned against them. I don't LOOK to cause harm, but if you are that naive, I would rather destroy you than have you preaching something which you do not understand.

Here I must make a disclaimer and say that: there are people that know far more than me of how this all works. When I say "you", the reader may exclude himself if he does not feel threatened by anything said here. This is of course my opinion and belief. If you are harmed by it... say so. I will apologize.

And finally, the first question: "Why is your religion the "true" religion.

A paradox:
All religions are the "true" religion. No religion is the "true" religion.

Belief is a funny little thing that makes whatever we "KNOW" to be fact, able to dispute any stated other fact that disagrees with our own.
For monotheists, it is my belief that everyone is going to hell. That hell shall be beautiful only to the beholder and to everyone else, it shall be that which has been prescribed by your priests. I for one, am betting on Dante's pagan circle. In which the light of true knowledge is brighter than the sun. Sure, its hell... but its warm and cozy. NOT dark and cold. Anyone read Dante?

and thats about all I can say about that...

The Cleric

 

[Sojourner<><]

The only question monotheists have been unable to answer for me is "why?".

Why is your religion the "true" religion?
Why must you continually force feed me scripture?
Why do you pick and choose which laws of moses you are going to follow?
Why can I not do the same?

Some of these basic questions which make us question our OWN faith are the simple questions I ask every day. Not because I need to know for myself, but because I want followers of this "bible" to re-examine what they are reading. You CAN NOT pick and choose which verses to follow. Society says you can, but only because the church controls society. It always has, and always will. The only weapon seemingly useful is scripture. I can use that same weapon agents anyone. There for, the word of god does not harm me, and it will in turn harm anyone I see fit to use it on. Just as every other monotheist.

People seem to shut up inside themselves when there own guns are turned against them. I don't LOOK to cause harm, but if you are that naive, I would rather destroy you than have you preaching something which you do not understand.

Here I must make a disclaimer and say that: there are people that know far more than me of how this all works. When I say "you", the reader may exclude himself if he does not feel threatened by anything said here. This is of course my opinion and belief. If you are harmed by it... say so. I will apologize.

And finally, the first question: "Why is your religion the "true" religion.

A paradox:
All religions are the "true" religion. No religion is the "true" religion.

Belief is a funny little thing that makes whatever we "KNOW" to be fact, able to dispute any stated other fact that disagrees with our own.
For monotheists, it is my belief that everyone is going to hell. That hell shall be beautiful only to the beholder and to everyone else, it shall be that which has been prescribed by your priests. I for one, am betting on Dante's pagan circle. In which the light of true knowledge is brighter than the sun. Sure, its hell... but its warm and cozy. NOT dark and cold. Anyone read Dante?

and thats about all I can say about that...

The Cleric

Well, I probably have just as many questions as you do. Out of all that is written about in the Scriptures, I might actually know the truth behind only 1% of them. What I know is just a couple of pages worth of teachings but is enough for me to have reason to put my trust in the rest. I think that this is probably true for most other Christians as well, and if I am right then it could mean that a lot of teachers out there are not handling the scriptures properly. But this is not to give you cause against them, since this sort of thing is common among everyone including both of us. You already know of the Scriptures and since you've spoken of your past discussions with other Christians I'm assuming you've already heard the Gospel. If you want to know the truth, I'm sure many Christians would be willing to help you along the way but you have to go and find it for yourself.