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A Question for Trinitarians

Nux

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Agents are persons acting in a particular capacity, in this case the divine capacity.

They are called persons because the NT reveals them to have personal characteristics; i.e,. they act as persons
I know they are persons. Jesus said his Father is above all, John the Baptist testified Jesus is above all, which generally means there is no one above the Father and Jesus. But because you call the divine Three "agents" (Father forgive) you must for sure know somebody greater then they, whose "agents" they are. And I'm just asking you to show me that divine capacity, the one above Three. It must be a person able to speak, act, etc. somebody with a name. If they are "called persons" so it must be some "super person" or "real person". So please show it somewhere in the Bible. Even in the New Jerusalem I see only Two, sitting on the throne in the middle of it, God the Father and The Lamb, and there is also The Holy Spirit speaking. So where is that capacity, somebody except them?
 
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Clare73

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So because you call the divine Three "agents" (Father forgive) you must for sure know somebody greater then they, whose "agents" they are. So I'm just asking to show me that divine capacity, the one above the Three.
Oh, so that is what you are referring to.

The issue here is not agency, but the nature of the agents, they are divine, which makes them all the one God.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The language of the ancient Fathers and Councils was primarily that God is one Ousia and three Hypostases. Which is why in the Nicene Creed we confess that the Son is ὁμοούσιον (homoousion) with the Father, literally "of-the-same-Being".

The word ousia is the noun form of the Greek verb meaning "to be", so literally translated to English as "being", or in Latin as essentia from which we get the word "essence" (this, also from the Latin verb for "to be" esse). We also translate this word as "substance", from the Latin substantia.

The word hypostasis is a bit more complicated, it can be literally translated as "substance", as it is hypo (under or Latin sub) and stasis (to stand or stancia in Latin); but theologians have preferred to render it as "subsistence". One could literally translate the word to "understanding", but that could be confusing to an English speaker. The meat of the meaning of this word is that we are speaking of something concrete and real, so when we speak of the "Hypostasis of the Father" we are speaking of the Father's "Father-ness", He is real, distinct, actual and not to be confused with the Son and the Holy Spirit. And yet the Son and the Holy Spirit are (by the eternal generation of the Son and the eternal procession of the Holy Spirit respectively) of the same Being as the Father, i.e. God, the one and only God.

So the Three Hypostases are one in Ousia. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; not three gods, but one God; not three eternals, but one Eternal; not three almighties, but one Almighty. Etc.

Another important word here is the Greek prosopon (plural: prosopa), which is translated directly into Latin as persona (plural: personae), from which the English word "person" is derived. The word had, in antiquity, a number of problems and controversies surrounding it. As a literal translation of prosopon would be "face" or "mask"; in traditional Greek theater actors would wear masks (prosopa) to play their role in the play. As such, this term was used by the ancient Modalists to say that God was one Hypostasis who wore three different faces. This was rejected as heretical, because it denied the reality and the actual distinction between the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit by diminishing them to mere faces or masks which God wore. However, the word prosopon (and persona in Latin) was used again later on as another way of speaking of the distinct Hypostases of the Trinity.

It is in this sense, not as "masks", but as Hypostases-Prosopa, that in English we speak of the Three Divine Persons. By which we mean real, distinct, concrete, "Someones"; not God wearing different faces, or three divine beings. But the Three Someones who are, each unto Himself and in/with the Other is truly God, the one God. The Being, the Essence, the Godhood of the Father is the same Being, the same Essence, the same Godhood of the Son and the Holy Spirit. Thus the Father is the one and only God, the Son also is the one and only God, and the Holy Spirit is the one and only God.

The Father is God, begotten of none; the Son is God, begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit is God, proceeding from the Father [and the Son]. So that we confess, believe in, and worship "one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the Persons nor dividing the Essence" as we read in the Athanasian Creed.

This is the Doctrine of the Trinity as it has been confessed and believed down through the generations; with its origins in the biblical confession of the one God and the Three Divine Persons.

So that when the Scriptures declare, "Hear O Israel, YHWH our God, YHWH is one" (Deuteronomy 6:4) and "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19) there is no contradiction. For the one and undivided God YHWH bears the singular Name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. When we read of our Lord Jesus, therefore, saying, "Before Abraham was I AM" (John 8:58) there is no doubt as to why His hearers accused Him of blasphemy. Jesus declared to be the One and singular God, YHWH, the One who said to Moses, "I AM that I AM"; and this same Jesus also deferred to His Father, and could say, "I go to My God and to your God" (John 20:17). For the Father, who is I AM, has a Son who is I AM, and the Holy Spirit is I AM. The one God of Deuteronomy 6:4 is also the Three Persons of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

For even as the Father has life in Himself, so does the Son (John 5:26), as the Son being the express image of the Father's Hypostasis (Hebrews 1:3) is confessed as true and very God, "Your Throne O God is forever and ever" (Hebrews 1:8). And the Son Himself, says that He and His Father will send Another Helper, the Holy Spirit, distinct from Father and the Son, and yet also Christ says of the Spirit, "I will not leave you as orphans, I will come to you" (John 14:18).

So in "Hear O Israel, YHWH our God" the Christian Church, through the revelation we have received in Christ, knows this one God as the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. For this reason, again, the Church believes in, confesses, and worships the "one God in Trinity, Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the Persons nor dividing the Essence." Amen.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Nux

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Oh, so that is what you are referring to.

The issue here is not agency, but the nature of the agents, they are divine, which makes them all the one God.

Agree, I see the Three as divine persons throughout the whole Bible

Oh, so that is what you are referring to.

The issue here is not agency, but the nature of the agents, they are divine, which makes them all the one God.

Wanna see this one as a person. Does it exist as a person or it's just a concept, doctrine, so on. If it's a person - Where is it in the Bible? I hope I'm not too annoying. Just want you to understand my point.
 
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Nux

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that God is one Ousia and three Hypostases.
Sorry, I don't need that philosophy, Ousia, Hypostases, so on. Could you please show in the Bible somebody except the divine Three:
  • Yahweh God, the Father
  • Jesus the Messiah, his Only Son
  • The Holy Spirit
Or the composed one you are talking about is just a doctrine, human philosophy?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Sorry, I don't need that philosophy, Ousia, Hypostases, so on. Could you please show in the Bible somebody except the divine Three:
  • Yahweh God, the Father
  • Jesus the Messiah, his Only Son
  • The Holy Spirit
Or the composed one you are talking about is just a doctrine, human philosophy?

I wasn't providing "philosophy". I was presenting basic Christian, biblical teaching.

The Father is YHWH God.
The Son is YHWH God.
The Holy Spirit is YHWH God.

"Hear O Israel, YHWH our God, YHWH is one." (Deuteronomy 6:4).

One God, Three Persons.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Clare73

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Agree, I see the Three as divine persons throughout the whole Bible



Wanna see this one as a person. Does it exist as a person or it's just a concept, doctrine, so on. If it's a person - Where is it in the Bible? I hope I'm not too annoying. Just want you to understand my point.
Because Scripture shows God functioning as a person--knowing, speaking, etc., etc., etc., he is called person in Christian doctrine.
Because Scripture shows three divine agents, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, functioning as persons, (post #68), they are called divine persons in Christian doctrine.
 
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oikonomia

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And Jesus is one of a number of teachers and instructors?
My God is the man Jesus.
Have no worries about that.

We receive supply from Him as the Head and from the members of the Body as "joint(s) of the rich supply."
And thus the Body builds up itself in love, growing up into Him in all things.
"But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ,
Out from whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and through the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love." (Eph. 4:16)

What a wonderful Lord Jesus as the Head. What a wonderful Body of grace and life supplying fellow members- like Stephen and Paul.
(Now I am a little old fashion. So excuse me if the emojis don't register to me real strong.)
 
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St_Worm2

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...because you call the divine Three "agents" (Father forgive) you must for sure know somebody greater then they, whose "agents" they are.
Hello Nux, perhaps it would be helpful for you to explain why the term "agent", when used in regard to one or more Members of the Godhead, is a problem for you.

Thanks :)

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - since it may be useful, here are some of the various ways that "agent" is defined for us in the dictionary. Like most words, "agent" has several different meanings.

Agent
noun
1. a person or business authorized to act on another's behalf: Our agent in Hong Kong will ship the merchandise. A best-selling author needs a good agent.
2. a person or thing that acts or has the power to act.
3. a natural force or object producing or used for obtaining specific results: Many insects are agents of fertilization.
4. an active cause; an efficient cause.
5. a person who works for or manages an agency.
6. a person who acts in an official capacity for a government or private agency as a guard, detective, or spy: an FBI agent; the secret agents of a foreign power.
7. a person responsible for a particular action: Who was the agent of this deed?
 
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disciple Clint

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This is strange. Read carefully, this is what God says:
Yahweh, the God of your ancestors, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is my remembrance from generation to generation.’

Exodus 3:13-15
13 But Moses said to God, “Look, if I go to the Israelites and I say to them, ‘The God of your ancestors has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is his name?’ then what shall I say to them?”
14 And God said to Moses, “I am that I am.” And he said, “So you must say to the Israelites, ‘I am sent me to you.’”
15 And God said again to Moses, “So you must say to the Israelites, ‘Yahweh, the God of your ancestors, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is my remembrance from generation to generation.’

I AM is not the name but God said “So you must say to the Israelites, ‘I am sent me to you.’
Then he revealed his name “So you must say to the Israelites, ‘Yahweh, the God of your ancestors, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever


When Jesus (by the way, "Jesus" means "YAHWEH saves" not "I AM saves") taught his disciples how to pray, first thing he instructed them to ask from heavenly Father was “Our Father who is in heaven, may your name be treated as holy." I see nothing here about some many names you've mentioned. Its obvious, Jesus was talking about particular name well known to him, his heavenly Father and his disciples. But... see to yourself

Matthew 6:9-13
9 Therefore you pray in this way:
“Our Father who is in heaven,
may your name be treated as holy.
10 May your kingdom come,
may your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread,
12 and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And do not bring us into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.
that is a translation error which is common in the NLT
 
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Clare73

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It's kind of weird

Son of God, Spirit of God, and then why not the 'Father of God' title?
Because the Son is generated by the Father, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son.
 
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Nux

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It's kind of weird

Son of God, Spirit of God, and then why not the 'Father of God' title?
perhaps because the Father IS God. And the Son, since he inherited everything from the Father, is called 'The Son of God'. And the Holy Spirit whom the Father sends is called 'The Spirit of God'.
 
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Clare73

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perhaps because the Father IS God. And the Son, since he inherited everything from the Father, is called 'The Son of God'. And the Holy Spirit whom the Father sends is called 'The Spirit of God'.
Because the Son is generated by the Father, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son.
 
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Nux

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Because the Son is generated by the Father

What do you mean by this?

Jesus said the Father has sent him into this world and promised the Father will send the Holy Spirit to the disciples into Jesus' name. But you say The Holy Spirit 'proceeds'. What is the difference?
 
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Clare73

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What do you mean by this?

Jesus said the Father has sent him into this world and promised the Father will send the Holy Spirit to the disciples into Jesus' name. But you say The Holy Spirit 'proceeds'. What is the difference?
They are the words of the Creeds:

generate - to beget (Jn 1:14)

proceed - to come forth from within (Jn 15:26)
 
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Nux

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yes the word Yahweh is not in most translations but it is in the NLT that you quoted
I use LEB and YLT. Check, great translations by the way. Translation with God's name been blot out is not worthy to read, it's not a translation anymore but perversion.
And, what do you think, is the right spelling of God's name? It occurs in more than 5700 Bible verses, where in your Bible, I guess, is just neutral 'Lord'. And according to what God says this name is very very important. And the righteous of old, from the very creation, used to call on this precious name, and David repeated it with joy in almost every verse of his psalms, it is everywhere in the OT. But, seems like, in your "translation" there is simply 'Lord' instead of it and you're saying there are some errors and you're saying 'word Yahweh is not in most translations'... Ok. So do you know the exact spelling of the Name of God?
 
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Nux

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They are the words of the Creeds:

generate - to beget (Jn 1:14)

proceed - come forth from within (Jn 15:26)
English is not my native, so, you know, perhaps because of this I'm able to see how weird 'generate' sounds when applied to Jesus.

Check the dictionary please:
generate | ˈdʒɛnəreɪt | verb [with object]
• produce or create: changes which are likely to generate controversy | the income generated by the sale of council houses.
• produce (energy, especially electricity).
• Mathematics & Linguistics produce (a set or sequence of items) by performing specified mathematical or logical operations on an initial set.
• Linguistics produce (a sentence or other unit, especially a well-formed one) by the application of a finite set of rules to lexical or other linguistic input.
• Mathematics form (a line, surface, or solid) by notionally moving a point, line, or surface.

So what, do you believe that the Father produced or created (Father, I'm sorry) Jesus?

And why "proceed" and not "send"? This is not without a reason that you've chosen 'proceed' I guess. I mean I, personally, believe the Holy Spirit is a person like the Father and the Son, so I use 'send' and it's ok for me. By the way, here Jn 15:26 we see both applied to the Holy Spirit. But you corrected me with 'proceed'... So, perhaps, you believe the Holy Spirit is a energy or power or breath or something like that. Are you sure you believe he is a person, distinct from the Father and the Son?
 
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