a question for the guys

[Evangelina]

I didn't say that one could not see people. I in fact made that point very clearly awhile back. I am speaking specifically to the idea of looking with the intent of appreciating the sexual value or aspects of a person. Also, I could go much further in biblical study to prove my point. God did not make us to be sexual in a purely physical way. This was part of the fall. Our physiology was literally changed at that time.

Mmmmm... 'looking with the intent of appreciating the sexual value of a person' ... what exactly does this mean? If I look at a woman and admire her long legs? If I look at a man's groin to check the apparent sizing? If I look at a man and think, "wow, he dresses well!"? I'm honestly not sure exactly what you're getting at.

 

[jwwells]

For my own part I'm more likely to notice a person's body language than anything sexual about her/him. I'm forever looking at and reading what their body language says.

I often point out things to my wife, this should be close to what I said to her yesterday: "Look at her! She thinks she's sexy but the guys think she's just plain nuts."

---------------------

I find the ant-male sexism (misandry) in this and the related threads to be disgusting. If you use misandry, you are abusing your husband, sons & male relatives-friends. You are also spitting in Christ's face. (The same goes for the misogyny in other threads.)

 

[Ari5]

Romanseight2005 - RIGHT ON!! Keep it up!!

I think some people on here are not understanding what this site is for. This site is for people who are striving to live a moral life & try to live more like Jesus!! Ari

 

[Evangelina]

Romanseight2005 - RIGHT ON!! Keep it up!!

I think some people on here are not understanding what this site is for. This site is for people who are striving to live a moral life & try to live more like Jesus!! Ari

Ah - so those who disagree with you and her are a) not striving to live more like Jesus and b) not the sort of people who this site is 'for' ? Please tell me I've misunderstood you and that you wouldn't come out with such nonsense!

 

[Flashskeletal]

In my last post I made a writing error – in regard to referencing to Dr. Nancy Ectoff, her research underscores that immodestly dressed women and men make people think more sexually and creates pretty competitions, such as breast size competitions. Modest dressing is important and helpful, for both genders and is the Christian way to go.

Romanseight2005:

First off, I want to complement you on many well-thought out and Biblical oriented posts. It’s refreshing and I agree with almost everything you have said. You last most of moving close to the line of sin, most big sins (e.g. adultery) start with small seemly irrelevant steps. Your posts are great!

Ari5:

I agree with your last post, I think many people post here for others reasons than to try to become more like Christ and use a website for its obvious strengths (you can share some embarrassing or intimate thoughts without revealing your identity). However, I am completely convinced that there are many people – including people at this post – that interact here to rationalize their sin. Then groups of rationalizes cluster together and have group rationalization posts. I’ve stated this before and I’ll state it again, I have read posts at this website that endorses cyber sex, pornography, masturbation, homosexuality, abortion, and many other sinful behaviors. The one I found the most disturbing was a post where “Christian” women were comparing how much [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] their husbands produced and there were women measure the amount and reporting it to other women. Although to a lesser degree, I think you are seeing this same behavior here. The scriptures are very clear about not lusting and not to have wonton eyes. Looking at others – and there is even academic research that most (but not all) American men look at women with sexual appetites – is a sin.

Tropic Wild:

I agree that just because a man looks at a women it does not mean its sexual. However, if your husband’s wondering eyes do not bother you, where are you spending so much time defending it, in this post and others? Also, there are sins of omission – doing nothing and remaining silent can reinforce sin. For example, I could have said nothing to my male friend who had wandering eyes, but instead, I confronted the sin without trying to make him feel completely awful and evil. He is a great person who does great things – but he has a sinful nature with his wandering eyes. So, I see it as helping him become a better Christian, just like he takes me to task in a kind and gentle way in areas that I struggle. Confronting other Christians and people we love, can be an act of kindness – if it’s done in the right way. Hence, you may stand accountable for doing nothing – I’m not sure and that ultimately will come down to a relationship between you and the Savior, but I did want to underscore to you that sins of omission also exists.

 

[Ari5]

Ah - so those who disagree with you and her are a) not striving to live more like Jesus and b) not the sort of people who this site is 'for' ? Please tell me I've misunderstood you and that you wouldn't come out with such nonsense!

First of all I'm not stooping to the level of arguing about it. And 2nd it is no nonsense that this site is to encourage others to walk like Christ did, not in our own humaness.

That being said, this site is for anyone, but if you are trying to argue that what the bible states is wrong don't be surpised to have others defend the word.Ari

 

[Ari5]

QUOTE - "I don't see how actively seeking to make somebody feel evil and ashamed is an act of kindness. Certainly it's not an act I'd want bestowed on me, since there really is no kind and gentle way of making somebody feel ashamed and humiliated."


No one wants to make you feel evil or ashamed , the purpose in gently showing someone what the bible says IS what christians are suppose to do. They are suppose to help each other & build each other up, so we can live a moral life & when we get off the path, hopefully along with others help the spirit will convict us & we can back on the right path again.
We ALL do bad things, no one is trying to be judgemental or point fingers, we are just trying to show what the Bible says about the issue.Ari

 

[Johnnz]

Really, the thing that I find sad is that some people are allowing something that's really very silly and harmless affect their marriage to the point where they'd label their husbands an adulteror for looking at another woman. I find that really, really sad. I feel bad for the women who honestly feel simply looking at another woman is enough to destroy their marriage and make their husband an adulteror, and I feel bad for the men who have an unrealistic standard applied to them for which the person (who's suppposed to understand them better than anybody else) will use as a means to make his life miserable.

That is awful. Truly awful. Thank God in heaven that I don't do that to my husband, and that he doesn't do it to me. .

This is what really bothers me too. Even that misunderstood, misapplied verse in Matthew introduces the concept of 'intending to' into lustful thinking. If so many Christian men are actively walking around looking at other women with the desire and mental commitment to bed them if they could, then there is a huge problem within Christian marriages.

The Fall diminished our sex dive and the pleasures we get from it. We were created to be gloriously sexual, sensual beings. If only Christians were reconciled to their sexuality instead of demonising it we would not be having threads such as this one. Instead, we would have posts from people rejoicing in their fulfilled humanity that would include very robust, healthy attitudes towards their sexuality.

John
NZ

 

[Evangelina]

First of all I'm not stooping to the level of arguing about it.

You're not going to 'stoop to' explaining your comments? Well, my apologies. I was clearly in the wrong to think that I'd misunderstood you. Those who disagree with you on this topic are not striving for Christ-like-ness.

And 2nd it is no nonsense that this site is to encourage others to walk like Christ did, not in our own humaness.

Fair enough. But that doesn't mean implying that anyone who doesn't agree with you is a 'lesser' christian. Could be that someone who doesn't struggle with sins of lust and jealousy is more spiritually advanced

That being said, this site is for anyone, but if you are trying to argue that what the bible states is wrong don't be surpised to have others defend the word.Ari

Noooooo, I was trying to argue that what YOU state is wrong. In places. And unless you're claiming to be as inspired as the writers of the NT, you can't really legitimately question the state of someone's spiritual walk because they don't agree with you. Jesus rather clearly said that just looking at a woman WITH LUST was a form of the sin of adultery. I don't think ANYONE here has disagreed with that. So your charge of someone (me? TW?) saying that the bible is wrong seems a little ridiculous, to put it mildly.

Now... would you mind having a think, at least, about the question I asked you about the 'sexual value' of a person? I'm interested to know what you meant.

 

[Evangelina]

[/font][/size][/color]I don't see how actively seeking to make somebody feel evil and ashamed is an act of kindness. Certainly it's not an act I'd want bestowed on me, since there really is no kind and gentle way of making somebody feel ashamed and humiliated.

I think that when it's done right, with wisdom and love and humility, confronting another person with their sin shoulldn't cause them to feel at all ashamed, humiliated or evil. Just a simple, "hey, you've been doing _____ a lot lately, and I wonder if you realise that it hurts _____. Would you mind having a think about _____, and whether you should continue? If you need a hand, let me know, eh?"

(not talking specifically about sexual sin here)

 

[Ari5]

You're not going to 'stoop to' explaining your comments? Well, my apologies. I was clearly in the wrong to think that I'd misunderstood you. Those who disagree with you on this topic are not striving for Christ-like-ness.
FIRST of all you are not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with the LORD. I didn't write the Bible.

Fair enough. But that doesn't mean implying that anyone who doesn't agree with you is a 'lesser' christian. Could be that someone who doesn't struggle with sins of lust and jealousy is more spiritually advanced
And who said I called anyone a lesser christian. I Know about this topic from first hand experience. I had some guy come unto me that I thought was a friend & it all started with a look!! So before you make accusations, maybe you could actually listen to someone who has been through it & is simply trying to help others from being sucked in, instead og attacking everything someone says to you.

Noooooo, I was trying to argue that what YOU state is wrong. In places. And unless you're claiming to be as inspired as the writers of the NT, you can't really legitimately question the state of someone's spiritual walk because they don't agree with you. Jesus rather clearly said that just looking at a woman WITH LUST was a form of the sin of adultery. I don't think ANYONE here has disagreed with that. So your charge of someone (me? TW?) saying that the bible is wrong seems a little ridiculous, to put it mildly.
I have not stated anything here that was not biblical.



Maybe instead of attacking people, you should look at how they are trying to help or what you can get from it. People on here are mostly not looking for an argument, they are trying to keep people on the right path, I know that, because they have helped me.

 

[Romanseight2005]

I am not going to respond to all of this right now because I have made my points, and I will pray intensely before saying anything else except to answer the question about sexual value. I purposely haven't drawn a line in the sand because I think that's the whole problem. Our question shouldn't be, how far can we go, but instead, is the meditation of my heart pleasing in your sight my Lord? Every person must determine, only after seeking God with their whole heart, the answer to your question. For me, I don't struggle with sexual thoughts about anyone besides my husband. Johnz, I do gloriously celebrate intimacy, oneness, and intoxicating sexuality with my husband. It is so much more beautiful now that I experience sex the way it was intended. It really is a spiritual event, and the spirit can not be separated from it. Ok, back to the question I was answering. I don't go near appreciating the sexual value of a person, and I don't long to, or repress desires even because it is not in my heart to do so.I would call appreciating the sexual value meaning any kind of appreciation of anything sexually stimulating for me. In my case I am not tempted that way, but every once in a great while, like once a year or so, I might see someone with captivating eyes. It's not sexual, but at one time in my life, those kinds of eyes could draw me in, and take up my thoughts. Cause a crush of sorts. Not sexual but it did used to ignite some kind of spark. So for me, if someone has those eyes, I don't look at them long, and I take my thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ. I actively guard the precious sexuality I have with my husband. This means that I won't let anything into my heart or mind that would even have the slightest possibility of diminishing my husband's sexual attraction in my mind. I don't know if this is making sense, but I am trying. I also want to state that no one here is better than anyone else. We all naturally want to do what feels good to the flesh. My point has just been that if we are asking the right questions, this issue wouldn't exist at all. We wouldn't be trying to determine what we can get away with.

 

[Evangelina]

FIRST of all you are not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with the LORD. I didn't write the Bible.

Where have I disagreed with the bible?

And who said I called anyone a lesser christian.

You wrote this:

I think some people on here are not understanding what this site is for. This site is for people who are striving to live a moral life & try to live more like Jesus!!

The distinct implication is - those people in this thread who are 'not understanding what this site is about' are not 'striving to live a moral life' etc.

I Know about this topic from first hand experience. I had some guy come unto me that I thought was a friend & it all started with a look!!

Well, any bad interaction between people is almost guaranteed to start with 'a look'. Ditto any good interaction.

So before you make accusations, maybe you could actually listen to someone who has been through it & is simply trying to help others from being sucked in, instead og attacking everything someone says to you.

Errrr... lemme get this straight. You make backhanded nasty comments about 'some people' in this thread, and I'M the one who's attacking? Must I point out that I specifically asked you for clarification of your statement, and you refused to 'stoop' to explaining yourself?

Maybe instead of attacking people, you should look at how they are trying to help or what you can get from it. People on here are mostly not looking for an argument, they are trying to keep people on the right path, I know that, because they have helped me.

Maybe instead of complaining about being attacked, you could simply provide the clarification requested in the first place?

 

[Evangelina]

I actively guard the precious sexuality I have with my husband. This means that I won't let anything into my heart or mind that would even have the slightest possibility of diminishing my husband's sexual attraction in my mind. I don't know if this is making sense, but I am trying. I also want to state that no one here is better than anyone else. We all naturally want to do what feels good to the flesh. My point has just been that if we are asking the right questions, this issue wouldn't exist at all. We wouldn't be trying to determine what we can get away with.

See, I don't get where people have been trying to 'determine what we can get away with'. So the only conclusion I've been able to draw is that you're of the opinion that looking at someone and saying (or thinking) "wow, (s)he's gorgeous!" or "look at those muscles!" is attempting to at least flirt with temptation. The way you've explained your position - which mostly seems fairly sensible! - just seems to me to imply that people in this thread are specifically doing the wrong thing, or dangerous things.

 

[Ari5]

Evangelina -

This conversation is not edifying or building up to anyone so I will not be responding. God Bless You, Ari

 

[Flashskeletal]

Being that I am heading out of town for the Christmas season – and will not have any internet access – this will be my last post on this topic, unless its still going on after the new year. However -- and i know I have mentioned this before -- my plan is to distance myself from this website (not jsut post) because the more I'm here the more I see this website as a breeding ground for people to rationize sin.

The comments that Romanseight2005 and Ari5 make – that I think are of paramount importance – is that sin begins with small steps (e.g. Romansieght’s comments about drawing a line in the sand or Ari5 personal experience with it started with a look). I’m not trying to trump other people’s thoughts, but my many years of being a licensed therapist in the area of mental health, holding a doctorate degree in human behavior and knowing the academic literature, studying the scriptures intensely, being a lead minister, and my life experience tell me that usually “big” sins begin with “small” steps. For example, a person who commits adultery does not wake up one morning and commits the sin, usually it’s small steps that lead to it, such as what Ari5 states is the look. I can tell countless stories about this pattern both as a minister, counselor, and academic. Further, I once heard a sermon – and I can’t remember where – where the speaker stated that if Satan were to take a body form he would not look ugly, he would be one of the most attractive looking people with sex appeal. Satan leads people to sin by small and seemingly “irrelevant” steps – my married friend who still likes to check out other women (especially their breasts) is making a step toward hurting his marriage. And as a friend I confronted this behavior in a kind way because he is worth my time and attention (just like the Savior confronting the money changers in front of the Temple).

To me, having a spouse look at another person is simply playing with fire – it’s a step in the wrong direction. To me, a life of following the Savior is very basic and simply, in regard to marriage you cleave unto your spouse, and no one else. And to me, the cognitive behavioral tool that I have found to be useful (to others and myself) is to be constantly asking oneself what the Savior would do. This question then causes me to study the scriptures more; pray more, serve the poor and needy more, and so forth. It helps me give more, and spend less time toward myself. At the end of the day, I do not think the Savior would look at people in a lustful way or watch sexually-oriented parts of movies and become sexually aroused. To me, sex is a wonderful experience when a man and women are married and love each other; however, in society it has become cheap and is used to market many products. And to me, because my wife is the most important part for my life and my relationship with her and the Savior is the most important part of my life, she deserves a man who will constantly be reflecting in prayer about how I act in all areas – including how I look at women. She deserves the very best and nothing less from me or any other Christ-like person. Understanding the Savior is quite clear adn even simply, if people will not try to rationalize sin via intellectualizing the scriptures.

 

[Romanseight2005]

Flashskeletal,
It sounds like you are talking about what I would call feeding your Spirit. I agree fully. We are told in scripture to crucify our flesh. With each choice we make, we are doing one or the other. If we are focused on God, we will likely be concerned with Godly things, and not focused on selfish thoughts. We then get better at hearing God, or recognizing His voice. Just like spending time with a close friend. The more you know them, the more you know what's not in their personality, etc. You are quite right with big sins starting with much smaller ones, the ones that the enemy seeks to subtly deceive us with. He does this because those things seem like little things to us. David first sinned when he chose to be lazy, or for whatever reason chose not to be where he was supposed to be, offf at war. If he was where he was supposed to be, he wouldn't have stepped right into temptation. There is a popular saying these days, which goes like this. "It's not wrong to be tempted." While I would not disagree with this, it seems to imply that we don't have a responsibility to steer away from temptation. This is not biblical. While there will be times that are out of our control that temptation will rear itself, we are told to pray that we are not lead into temptation, and that we guard our hearts. He leads a way out, but if we willingly step into temptation's way, we may not see or recognize the way out, because we are focused on whatever lead us to go there to begin with. I think that the understanding that we have a responsibility to avoid temptation is something that is largely not taught, and therefore not well understood. It is my prayer that the body of Christ, (including myself) grows in wisdom and discernment so that we are not devoured by the roaring lion who seeks to destroy us.

 

[HOPEOF9]

(general statement not directed at any 1 person)

We look for the same reasons women look. There is something to look at.

What is the big deal? I think all of these questions (male and female) just stem from personal insecurites. We get ticked that someone else is hotter they we are. Sorry, this is reality,,, deal!!!!

I also think alot of this complaining comes from lazyness. It is eaiser to blame the guy/girl who looks, then it is to work out, dress nice, and be sexy for your spouse.

Accept your spouses flaws, because both parties are siners. The quicker you accept and move on the quicker you can both be happy. Men and women do not change. The quicker we can concentrate on the 80% that our spouses do well every day, the more insignificant the 20% they do wrong will become.

I had problems with my husbands wandering eyes and heart. It had nothing to do with my apperance. I was sick, and instead of taking the time to pray for me, with me, or just hold me, he was disgusted that I couldn't make love and spent the rest of the evening checking out websites with scantily dressed women on them.
He felt bad afterwards, and repented, asked forgiveness and got it. However, it had nothing to do with the fact of me being too lazy to look nice for him, or my insecurities....what a line of BULL.
Jesus said that if you even look at a women to lust after her, you've already commited adultrey.....that's why it's a big deal. We aren't dealing with just 20% thats wrong issue, We're dealing with a heart issue that God CAN CHANGE, and that will effect them ETERNALLY if not dealt with.

I think the original asker would like to know what real heart motives are there, not just who is justifying it or not...

 

[Tuffguy]

I had problems with my husbands wandering eyes and heart. It had nothing to do with my apperance. I was sick, and instead of taking the time to pray for me, with me, or just hold me, he was disgusted that I couldn't make love and spent the rest of the evening checking out websites with scantily dressed women on them.
He felt bad afterwards, and repented, asked forgiveness and got it. However, it had nothing to do with the fact of me being too lazy to look nice for him, or my insecurities....what a line of BULL.
Jesus said that if you even look at a women to lust after her, you've already commited adultrey.....that's why it's a big deal. We aren't dealing with just 20% thats wrong issue, We're dealing with a heart issue that God CAN CHANGE, and that will effect them ETERNALLY if not dealt with.

I think the original asker would like to know what real heart motives are there, not just who is justifying it or not...

Actually, the OP was about "wandering eyes" not lusting after someone not your wife.

Clearly, lusting is a sin. That is a straight shot, no discussion issue. This is about noticing and glancing, not staring and lusting. It is obviously also not applicable to your situation and why my response is naturally off base.

 

[dayknee]

My marital relationship is a mess..so I'll try to respond based on if it were rather healthy and normal.

I know both men and women look. I know we probably can't stop eachother from doing it either. Each person needs to be accountable for their own actions and sins. But as a christian I have a responsibility to help keep my husband accountable and to walk right with the Lord. As does he. Lovingly letting your spouse know that what they are doing is hurtful and could lead to sinful things in the future is something I will do gladly. And I hope if I were ever out of line that my spouse would do the same. We all need accountability.

I believe my self esteem is fine and well. Yes, Ive been deeply hurt by my husband. He has taken the occasional stare/look to various levels such as porn and acting out sexually online with other women. I agree with Romans that the looking/staring is just that one step closer to that line. I would never be so guluble as to believe my husband is looking at another women simply becuase he is curious about her hair or some other interesting thing about her. The fact is that looking can lead to other things..damaging things..especially when a spouse is "ok" with it.

Ahh to each his own.
I never patrolled my husband nor had I ever made comments to him about his looking/staring..I wish I had though..because without him having to be accountable to someone ( God or even me) I really believe that our marriage could have been saved at one point. I overlooked the looking and staring that he did and I believe it gave him a free pass to take it to that next level i.e; porn, sexual chats, roleplaying sex with other women.
Sadly both men and women do this. It's very disheartening that spouses are ok with eachother crossig that line. I guess it just shows us that the line is different for alot of people. I chose to take the line that the Lord has layed out for me, though. And not a line of my choosing. I think there is nothing wrong with wanting to be the one person your spouse looks at and desires. And tho's who don't care about their spouses checking other women out or oogling, are the ones, sadly, that need the self esteem booster. I mean..why wouldnt you want to be the only person your spouse adores? Is it that, there is fear that you don't meet their expectations? And is it that you might as well let them look becuase then you can be cool in the eyes of your spouse or their friends?
I don't care to be cool, I don't care to be considered the best wife or the good catch becuase I let my husband stare/oogle/look at other women.
meh..just my thoughts.