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a question for the guys

rosiecotton

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Maybe we have differing thoughts on what we actually mean by the word 'look'??
I think it's natural to look at other people. We see people everyday of our lives, we can't help but look at them. Is it wrong to notice that someone is pretty or handsome? I notice when another woman is pretty or a man is handsome. That does not mean I'm lusting. I'm merely noticing that he is handsome. I know that my husband finds other women pretty. but honestly, it takes someone extremely pretty for him to even notice her. That doesn't mean he is lusting after them. There is a big difference in merely looking and allowing that look to go further into lusting.
If we can appreciate God's beauty in things like the ocean, mountains, animals, etc, why is it wrong to appreciate it in people? Many times I've noticed that another man is handsome, or has nice eyes or smile, but I am not thinking lustful thoughts about him.
And why is it gullible for her to believe her husband was just noticing another womans' hair? I notice other peoples hair all the time. I may be staring at a guy, not because I think he's hot, but because there is something weird about him!
And yes, I understand bigger things can start small. I have experience in that. Mine wasn't with finding another guy handsome though, but with chatting online.
 
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dayknee

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And ask yourself this... By demanding your husband find nobody else attractive and have eyes only for you, is your marriage in a better space? Do you feel more loved? Or do you and your husband feel closer together, or more divided than ever? And why are you allowed to notice an attractive woman, but he is punished for noticing same attractive woman?

I actually never demanded him to not find anyone else attractive. I realize that most men and women alike do find others attractive. What I said was that I wish I had held him accountable for the staring/oogling/looking to long, and the like, at other women. I tend to believe that our relationship would not have ended up where it is at present day. I had never demanded him to not stare or look. What I felt, suprisingly much like you, was that it was no big deal and that he came home with me and that he married me and loved only me. The problem, I feel, was when I DIDN'T let it bother me, that it gave him free rain to escelate his behavior thinking I was the cool wife or the complacent wife and that he could take his looking to the next step, porn and etc.
Again, I obviously don't feel more loved or even remotly close to my spouse sexually, emotionally, or in any other way. And becuase I did not take a stand against what I knew was wrong I let it go thinking that I really was the only person he truely wanted and desired.
I never patrolled him nor did I ever question what he was looking at or thinking while he was looking. I didnt feel it mattered..I was wrong..it did matter.
Im not entirely inclinded to believe that even if I did patrol him, that he wouldnt have done the things he's done anyway, but I do believe that if I held him accountable for the looking/staring, that maybe things wouldnt have got so bad.

Oh and..I don't think your last statement really holds any water..Of course I look at other women..but being a straight women, what are the chances I'm looking at another women with sexual thoughts or desires..and then ask yourself what the chances are that a man who looks at another women or a women who looks at another man are NOT having any sexual desires. Yeah I'd say pretty slim..but again..I dont pretend to know the heart of my spouse or what his thoughts are..
I simply ask to be the one person he desires to be with and love. I realize what he's done is not becuase of me..so my self esteem does not lack..Did it in the beginning, yes..but knowing it isnt about me and the problems are his I learned to be ok with myself.
Tropical, the line for you is your line..as long as you are ok with it and secure in the knowledge of your spouses devotion, love, and commitment to you..I guess it works for you.
The line I draw is the line that Gods word tells me to draw.
I know Ive lusted in my heart..I know he has..and I probably could safetly say that most have. I also know that when I wasnt walking witht he Lord it was much easier to excuse my behavior. I choose to not live that way..and I choose to keep my thoughts pure and glorifying to the one person who deserves it. Do I fail..sure I do..but I don't give up and make my own line becuase I fail..I don't keep pushing that line farther and farther away from the line thats already been drawn by my Father.
 
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LoveAlways

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I don't have a problem with my husband noticing attractive women and think they are attractive. And even though it's been much hyped that men are "more visual" this does not mean women walk around with blinders on. I notice attractive men. It's not a big deal for either of us. And I agree saying men can't be faithful because of the fall is ridiculous. My husband looks at other women occasionally-- he doesn't chase after them panting. A look is not unfaithfulness unless you're with an incredibly paranoid partner.
 
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Johnnz

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When your husband has looked at porn a significant degree of trust has been broken. That is understandable. But your experience is not the benchmark for others where that was not an issue.

An awful lot of sexual issues within marriages derives from some pretty fragile (and in my view unbiblical) attitudes about human sexuality in general. I am firmly of the view that such views either create of significantly contribute towards the kind of issues being debated here. I find Tropical Wild's views far more grounded and realistic than many others, while recognising she has not had the issues some others have faced.


The really big issue is not imposing all sorts of 'controls' or habits onto people. It's having sufficiently robust and healthy views about human sexuality that will pretty much make wrongdoing quite undesirable to start with. I consider myself to be a sexually aware person, who enjoys female company and beauty. But I can do that in the knowledge that any thoughts of being sexual with another woman have never had any attraction or desire within me. I struggle far more with seeing so many Christians so uptight and defensive about human sexuality.

I love God, I love my wife, I enjoy sex, I enjoy beauty, I enjoy female friends and I love the freedom I have in Christ to do all of that.

John
NZ
 
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Flashskeletal

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Dayknee:

I appreciate your honest post. As a past licensed therapist and minister I have sadly witnessed over and over again what you have described – men who look hurting their wife’s and taking a step toward destroying their marriage. I am glad you are now willing to communicate in an honesty way to your husband. Being silence is a response that most people interpret as supportive. Social learning theory posits that we become what our environments are – and if we constantly place ourselves in environments where looking at others sexually is acceptable – we become the consequence of the environment. – which increases the probability of sexual sin. It’s too bad that tropic wild is trying to dismiss your honest post. In my mind, by communicating to your husband in a honest way, being willing to forgive his sins and listening to his perspective about areas where you need to also change, is a step forward in your marriage.

Tropic Wild:

Although I agree that different people have different temptations and weaknesses, for most people, “big” sins start with “small” sins. We differ on a couple of points.

First, we differ in how we interpret communication. To me, when my wife communications that she wants me to change something (e.g., more cleaning around the house) I do not see it as you do – berating. I see it as my wife trusts me enough that we can have heart to heart conversations. She trusts that I will genuinely listen to her – even if it’s something I do not like to hear. If she ever saw my eyes wandering (which I am certain I never do) – I would hope that she would communicate this to me. To me, being open to communicate about difficult situations is a sign of trust. Keeping silence, to me, is the opposite of trusts.

Second, when I confronted my friend about his behavior of checking out other women, you interpreted it as awful on my part. I interpret my behavior as trust and a sign of true friendship– we have such a good friendship that we can have open discourse about a sensitive issue. I confronted him because I care enough for his life.

Third, the Savior confronted people on their wrongdoings in a gentle and kind way – highlighting that if they sinned they could repent. As you state in your bio – you walk to your own drum and your reference point in your posts begin and end with yourself – your replies seem to follow the doctrines of yourself – not Christ. The scriptures are very clear that we are to cleave unto our husbands and wife’s and no one selse. Having your husband checking out other women is not cleaving unto you. He should look at you and only you.

Fourth, we differ on our interpretation of natural. You have repeated over and over again that checking out others is natural. Natural comes from societal environments. For example, the historian Marylyn Yalom underscored how during the Victorian era small breasts (and penises) were considered desirable and natural because they highlighted graceful and intellectual women – the desire for larger breasts was a sign of animalistic tendencies. Today, the desire for both men and women are larger breasts. My point is that a human being “natural” state comes from social standards (e.g., its natural to desire larger breasts). Natural does not mean it has been approved by God – rather, part of the reason for our earthly existence is to be tested to prove that we will follow God and one of the tests is the flesh. As Roman’s has underscored from scripture, our bodies became dual from the fall– there is a physiological response (called in scriptures the flesh) and a spiritual response. I have only watched pornography once – when I was in high school. When I watched it I was physiologically was turn on in a major way, spiritually I felt awful and guilty until I repented and promised to do my best never to watch another pornographic movie (which was not that difficult to do – I have temptations in other areas). Although becoming physiologically turned on was a natural behavior, it was not in keeping with the commandments and principles of Christ. Sex should be kept in the bounds of marriage – not watching a porno where you watch two strangers using their sexual attributes as weapons against each other. I have heard illegal dog fighters tell about the natural high that comes from watching two dogs fight to the death – such activities goes against the life of the Savior who would notice birds die. When I worked as a licensed therapists with people who were substance dependent they would often report that liking a high from crack cocaine was natural – but drug use is against the commandments of God, it harms the beautiful bodies the Savior created. Just because something is natural does not mean its from God and does not mean its good. Many times, we need to turn of the “natural” parts of our beings to be more Christ-like. It might be natural for your husband to check out other women, do I do not think its what God approves.
 
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Flashskeletal

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Tropic Wild:

First off, I am not trying to condemn you or suggest that in any way I am better than you. If I have, please accept my apology. What I am attempting to do is have an in-depth conversation about gospel principles.

I want to bring up one point of your post that I disagree with – its you descriptive assumption that God created people to have individualism and physical individuality. Individualism (physical or psychological) is not a universal feature – it’s a societal (sociological) constructed ideology that is pervasive in the United States. However, not all American follow individualism – American Indian populations and the Amish follow collectivistic spirituality and Christianity. Asian cultures also are collectivistic and so are other types of Christian groups and sacred rituals (e.g., Catholic mass). God did not make people individualistic – rather, it’s a societal ideology that people can choice or be conditioned to live by and its one that seems to be at the core of your identity – so much so that its a core lens of how your interpret scriptures. Instead of questioning others, you might want to question your own ideology and how it causes you to interpret behaviors a certain way – such as men having wandering eyes as part of their “individualistic” fabric that God designed. If God designed it, then these men (such as your husband) are not responsible. However, if you ideology if off – that its not natural but is a socially conditioned application of a socially constructed identity – then I suppose these men are not responsible and accountable to God. Just a thought.

<Staff Edit>
 
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childofgod57

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i will look at a pretty woman because she is pretty but thats as far as it goes,ive heard most men imagine sex with the pretty type,obviously im unique and have morals,ive heard the average man thinks about sex every 20 seconds,its a wonder anything gets done in this world
 
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Flashskeletal

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Two things.

First, I made an error in my last post. The word "not" should not appear in the second sentence -- meaning, if tropical winds ideology if off – that its not natural but is a socially conditioned application of a socially constructed identity for men to have wandering eyes – then I suppose these men ARE responsible and accountable to God.

Second, just a quick note to let everyone know that I have decided to cease my interactions at this post and website. As many of you, I am very busy in life and have committed to some new responsibilities this new year at work and in the community. As such, I simply do not have the time to engage in long-winded posts or at a website that seems to be dedicated to rationlizing sin.
 
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LovesEnduringPromise

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If looking were hurtful, then I'd let him know. But it's not. It's really natural and normal, and not the first step to an affair, much like looking at a car isn't the first step to vehicular manslaughter. Looking and having sex are two totally different actions.

Really, if we were to judge and condemn all actions in our spouse that could lead to sinful behaviors, then we'd be doing nothing but criticizing and attacking our spouses for everything they do. This is where having trust in your spouse comes in. If you trust your spouse, you won't need to rebuke him for doing something wrong before he does it, even if it's not something he was going to do. If you don't trust your spouse, then sure, maybe it's appropriate to react to things that he could do, but isn't doing.



Is it gullible to take the word of your husband now? Again, I think it's more indicative of the state of the marriage than the tresspass of looking when we are to assume that the word of our husbands are false, and that to believe them and trust them makes us gullible. If my husband says he's looking because of how a woman does her hair (especially when he knows looking doesn't bother me, thus he has nothing to gain by lying), I trust him enough to assume that's what he's doing, instead of convicting him of the sin of adultery (before he committs it) and lying (even though there's no reason to suspect he is).

When we're out to purge sin, we have to make sure that what the people we're accusing of sin are actually proven to be sinning first. It doesn't make for a good marital relationship when we think the worst of our spouse, react to tresspasses they haven't done but assume they're going to do the worst.



We're each accountable for our own actions, you're not responsible for his. If he chose to do these things, it's not because you allowed it, but because he wanted to. Here's guessing that he knew those things were wrong, as most people know that sex chats and such are inappropriate when you're married, but he chose to do them anyway and he would have done so even if you had harranged him unendingly about what he did and didn't do that bothered you.

My husband knows looking is looking, and having sex is having sex. He knows that looking doesn't mean it's OK to have sex with who he's looking at, or that I condone his having sex chats or roleplaying with other women. If he were to use the excuse "You were OK with looking, so obviously that means you're OK with me having sex" then really, he's trying to fobb off accountability for his actions and lay the blame and fault on me... When the issue is his boundary issues, not mine.



Well, I find it disheartening that people would seek to apply unrealistic standards with severe punishments to their spouses for behaviors that are not only natural, but only harmful due to the personal issues of the person who's offended. But, as you said, that just shows us that the Lord has layed out for us.



I don't think there's anything wrong with expecting to be the only person your husband desires... But only looks at? That is unreasonable. Unless we expect and want full mental control over our spouses, and wish to dominate their free will, it's just not reasonable to expect that they will notice and find attractive nobody but you.



Just the opposite, actually. I don't care because the other person poses no threat. My marriage and relationship with my husband and the trust we have with eachother is not so weak and flimsy that the mere sight of another attractive person can undermine it. Our marriage is strong and healthy, so while some marriages may be of a state where seeing another person undermines love and trust, ours is not. The pledge my husband made to me is worth something, it has value, weight and merit, and can't be undone simply because a person who's in his life for less than 30 seconds and never has direct communication who looks attractive.

So another girl is cute. Who cares? Is he going home with her? Nope. Is he having kids with her? Nope. Did he pledge to her before God and our friends and family that he would be with her for thick and thin for the rest of his life? Nope. So what I have on her is so much stronger and better than what she has simply by being attractive. So he can look all he wants, but in the end, I'm still so much better than the girl he's looking at, and our marriage is so much stronger than to be crumbled by the sight of a pretty face.

I'd like to point out, if the behavior makes me "cool" with my husband or his friends, that's not the point, but it is something to think about. If my husband feels that this behavior makes me easier to be with, more approachable, and more supportive and understanding of him, is that a bad thing? If he knows honesty won't make me flip out and punish him, he's more inclined to be honest, and he's not going to feel pressured into lying. Thus when he sees a girl with interesting hair, he can comment "I looked at her because of her hair" instead of having to yell loudly like a paranoid person "NOTHING! I WAS LOOKING AT NOTHING!" and think that I'm now going to be unduly injured or offended because he had the nerve to notice another person.



I don't care to be cool either, but I do care to be the type of wife who displays trust and respect for my husband. And having been out with the spouses of husbands who freak out when their husband so much as looks at the waitress too long... Yikes. That behavior makes everybody, spouse and friends, miserable.

I'd rather be the wife who's a good catch, who's fun to be with, who's rational and reasonable and thus is invited out with her husband for all sorts of amusements, who's friends with her husband's friends (and thus supportive of his external relationships and endevors), than the harpy married to a buddy who you never want to see or go out with because her poor behavior and over-reactions make being with them a nightmare, and it means that every little thing you do must be done while walking on eggshells for fear of irritating her and causing problems in their already fragile marriage. Then, not only is the trust in their marriage destroyed, the value of their vows destroyed, the dynamic as a husband and wife destroyed, but now even friends want nothing to do with us because we're such a disaster to be with.

That's not what I want.

And ask yourself this... By demanding your husband find nobody else attractive and have eyes only for you, is your marriage in a better space? Do you feel more loved? Or do you and your husband feel closer together, or more divided than ever? And why are you allowed to notice an attractive woman, but he is punished for noticing same attractive woman?
Your right, nothing wrong with looking...like nothing wrong with just looking at a car. Looking doesnt lead to sex, like looking at a car doesnt create vehicular manslaughter ...but thinking about that person sexually creates lustful thoughts and when it goes too far too long the person usually falls into adultery or other harmful behavior...like thinking about vehicular manslaughter or someone killing someone..that lust and desire creats actions.....the people dont just do it just because...a thought usually tempts them....
 
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Romanseight2005

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What is God's definition of sin?
Matt 5:28-29

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
KJV

Rev 2:20-22
20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling.
NIV
 
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Johnnz

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What is God's definition of sin?
Matt 5:28-29

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
KJV

Re Matthew.

a) How many eyeless people have you seen? Or does that scripture not apply any more?

b) The 'lusting' verse. It just does not mean what you have written about. It refers only to married men wanting to have sex with another woman. That is why adultery was mentioned. It has a more specific meaning too. Jesus was referring to a common practice amongst some religious leaders of dissolving their marriages, legally by their own standards, simply on the basis of seeing another woman more attractive than their current wife, and deliberately intending to have sex with them by dissolving their present marriage and 'legally' marrying the other woman. Jesus condemned that practice by calling it adultery. His hearers knew exactly what he was referring to.

John
NZ
 
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Romanseight2005

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Actually, He was saying that what we do in our hearts is what really matters. An action is merely an outward manifestation of what is already in the heart.
Matt 15:18-20
8 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what make a man 'unclean';
NIV

Notice that adultery and sexual immorality are both listed here. Both can be sins of the heart.

Also, what does plucking the eye out mean to you? It seems to me that you have completely thrown it out. One could easily take this to mean that you should not let your eyes go where they shouldn't, and if you have no control over this, then drastic radical amputation should take place, such as not going to places that tempt you, etc. However you see this verse, it is obvious that Jesus is telling us to take sins of the heart very seriously, and to do whatever we have to, stay away from sin. In fact, what would gouging your eye out do, in the above mentioned case? It would take the temptation to lust away. What was the means to which the temptation occurred? Through the eyes.
 
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Johnnz

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Actually, He was saying that what we do in our hearts is what really matters. An action is merely an outward manifestation of what is already in the heart.
Matt 15:18-20
8 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what make a man 'unclean';
NIV

Notice that adultery and sexual immorality are both listed here. Both can be sins of the heart.

Also, what does plucking the eye out mean to you? It seems to me that you have completely thrown it out. One could easily take this to mean that you should not let your eyes go where they shouldn't, and if you have no control over this, then drastic radical amputation should take place, such as not going to places that tempt you, etc. However you see this verse, it is obvious that Jesus is telling us to take sins of the heart very seriously, and to do whatever we have to, stay away from sin. In fact, what would gouging your eye out do, in the above mentioned case? It would take the temptation to lust away. What was the means to which the temptation occurred? Through the eyes.

I totally agree that it's the heart that is important. That's what Jesus was stressing throughout the Sermon on the Mount. If evil desires come from within then external stimuli are largely irrelevant anyway. If there is no desire or even interest in doing something wrong something external won't have that much effect. I have been propositioned by prostitutes, attended a festival where 95% of the people were naked most of the time, noticed that boobs and butts are commonplace on TV and movies. But that has never led to the merest flicker of sex other than with my wife.


Plucking out one's eye. Jesus was in fact being extremely ironical. The religious leaders prided themselves on external observances as indicative of holiness. Jesus took up their own argument by ironically suggesting that they could avoid external temptations completely by blinding themselves or cutting off their hands. Presto, instant holiness. He then stated where real holiness resides an inward condition.

The debate on this thread is a rerun of that biblical interaction in Matthew. There are those who still focus on externals (beware of looking at pretty women) rather than in inward reality - she really is beautiful, bless God.

John
NZ
 
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mattlock73

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I totally agree that it's the heart that is important. That's what Jesus was stressing throughout the Sermon on the Mount. If evil desires come from within then external stimuli are largely irrelevant anyway. If there is no desire or even interest in doing something wrong something external won't have that much effect. I have been propositioned by prostitutes, attended a festival where 95% of the people were naked most of the time, noticed that boobs and butts are commonplace on TV and movies. But that has never led to the merest flicker of sex other than with my wife.


Plucking out one's eye. Jesus was in fact being extremely ironical. The religious leaders prided themselves on external observances as indicative of holiness. Jesus took up their own argument by ironically suggesting that they could avoid external temptations completely by blinding themselves or cutting off their hands. Presto, instant holiness. He then stated where real holiness resides an inward condition.

The debate on this thread is a rerun of that biblical interaction in Matthew. There are those who still focus on externals (beware of looking at pretty women) rather than in inward reality - she really is beautiful, bless God.

John
NZ
I could not agree more. There is a difference between appreciating beauty and lustfulness.
 
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Romanseight2005

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I totally agree that it's the heart that is important. That's what Jesus was stressing throughout the Sermon on the Mount. If evil desires come from within then external stimuli are largely irrelevant anyway. If there is no desire or even interest in doing something wrong something external won't have that much effect. I have been propositioned by prostitutes, attended a festival where 95% of the people were naked most of the time, noticed that boobs and butts are commonplace on TV and movies. But that has never led to the merest flicker of sex other than with my wife.


Plucking out one's eye. Jesus was in fact being extremely ironical. The religious leaders prided themselves on external observances as indicative of holiness. Jesus took up their own argument by ironically suggesting that they could avoid external temptations completely by blinding themselves or cutting off their hands. Presto, instant holiness. He then stated where real holiness resides an inward condition.

The debate on this thread is a rerun of that biblical interaction in Matthew. There are those who still focus on externals (beware of looking at pretty women) rather than in inward reality - she really is beautiful, bless God.

John
NZ

\Several issues. First, the verse about plucking out one's eye really is in complete corroboration with other scriptures.
Matt 6:13

13 And lead us not into temptation , but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
KJV
Rev 3:10

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation , which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
KJV
Matt 26:41

41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation : the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
KJV
1 Cor 6:18

18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.
NIV
1 Cor 6:18

So gouging ones eyes out, is the same as to flee temptation which is said in many ways over and over in the scriptures. The point is, that if one is to indulge in admiring one who that person sees specifically as sexually desirous, than one is specifically walking into temptation. When the scriptures tell us to pray that we are not led into temptation, and to flee temptation, and that when we are confronted with temptation that is out of our control, then He will provide a way out, then actually putting ourselves purposefully in temptation's way, is already sin. See, a sinful heart, is not one that acknowledges that he has a sinful nature, and needs God to save him. Rather a sinful heart is one who says, I am above reproach, and I will not fall prey to any sin, therefore I may indulge in whatever behavior I like. The one who says that I know I have the capability to sin, therefore I will make a covenant with my eyes, as Job did, he is the pure in heart, at least in that area. Does this mean that one can not appreciate the inner beauty of people? Does it mean that people can't be pure and appreciate forms of beauty? No. If, however, one is specifically attracted to someone because they are attractive in a sexual way, and one calls that appreciation, then that is an illusion, and is actually a snare that one walks right in to. If the draw or appeal for sexual attractiveness is the thing that you notice about someone, then that very acknowledgment makes them temptation. Since the scriptures tell us to flee temptation, then specifically choosing to walk in it, is in fact, already a sin.
James 4:16-17
17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.
NIV
 
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