A question for gays

[Jet_A_Jockey]

have you ever read the whole passage?

Paul says "because of this" but he doesn't really make it clear because of WHAT... at least not to my reading

If you read the passages prior to it, you'll see this.

25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

This is the "WHAT" you are looking for, as well as the verses above it.

 

[Ohioprof]

Hi again,

Your opinion on divorce, as well as Jesus' stance on it, are irrelevant due to your conflicting opinion of Jesus Himself. How do you decide that He denounces divorce, yet then also claim that He didn't say most of the things attributed him?

This could draw us off topic, but I will give a brief explanation of this. I do not believe that much of what is attributed to Jesus in the 4 canonical Gospels is what Jesus actually said. The scholars of the Jesus seminar have worked to try to figure out what Jesus probably did say, what he may have said, and what he almost certainly did not say. These scholars have written a number of books in which they note what Jesus probably did and did not say. Most of what is attributed to Jesus in the Gospel of John, all those "I" saying, he almost certainly did not say, according to these Bible scholars.

Are they absolutely certain that Jesus said any of what they think he probably said? No. But they have done their best to figure out what he probably said.

When people attribute sayings to Jesus and quote the 4 canonical Gospels, I usually thumb through one of my Jesus seminar books to see whether these scholars think he actually said this.

Now that I have explained my thinking and my methodology, we can get back to the subject of the thread.

 

[Ohioprof]

That depends on whether you believe that the scripture is divinely inspired, which you previously have stated that you do not. Christianity requires faith, and one part of that faith is understanding and trusting in what is written as truth.

For you, and for some people, that's what Christianity requires. Not for me. I have faith, but my faith is not in the written word, not in the Bible. My faith is in God. I also do not view faith as a doctrine, as I have said before. My faith is not a set of beliefs. It's a practice.

This is taking us off topic again, I fear.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Paul's writings are true because Paul said they were true?

Explain to me how they are in conflict with Christian teaching? I'm not going to argue paul's scriptural importance with you tonight, but its funny that since there are debatable passages in his writings, all of a sudden the veracity of them comes into play.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

For you, and for some people, that's what Christianity requires. Not for me. I have faith, but my faith is not in the written word, not in the Bible. My faith is in God. I also do not view faith as a doctrine, as I have said before. My faith is not a set of beliefs. It's a practice.

This is taking us off topic again, I fear.

It has to require this. The reason? Without scripture, Christianity would not exist. Every concept of Christianity is found within scripture, so without it we would have no idea about Christ (Christ-ians follow the messiah Christ), and therefore could not be Christians. At most we would just be deists or pagans who try to live with a good moral code.

You and I both agree that there is a God. That is a doctrine. The word "doctrine" is not an evil fundamentalist word for "black and white".

You may consider this offtopic, but I think it is considerably on-topic, as it is the basis of every argument that comes up in this forum.

 

[Ohioprof]

It has to require this. The reason? Without scripture, Christianity would not exist. Every concept of Christianity is found within scripture, so without it we would have no idea about Christ (Christ-ians follow the messiah Christ), and therefore could not be Christians. At most we would just be deists or pagans who try to live with a good moral code.

You and I both agree that there is a God. That is a doctrine. The word "doctrine" is not an evil fundamentalist word for "black and white".

You may consider this offtopic, but I think it is considerably on-topic, as it is the basis of every argument that comes up in this forum.

I do think these matters are off topic for this subforum. I am not here to debate what makes someone a Christian, or whether belief in the Bible is required for being a Christian. That is certainly appropriate for another thread, but it is off the subject of this subforum. The question of whether and how someone can be gay and be a Christian is on topic for this subforum.

I think that it is important that we understand where we are each coming from in our different faith perspectives so we understand what each of us is saying. Clarifying how we each understand the Bible is not the same as debating whether a Christian must believe in the Bible or not to be a Christian. To get into the latter is to get off topic for this subforum.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

I do think these matters are off topic for this subforum. I am not here to debate what makes someone a Christian, or whether belief in the Bible is required for being a Christian. That is certainly appropriate for another thread, but it is off the subject of this subforum. The question of whether and how someone can be gay and be a Christian is on topic for this subforum.

Well we both know what being gay consists of, but we obviously do not reach agreement on what being a Christian consists of.

I think that it is important that we understand where we are each coming from in our different faith perspectives so we understand what each of us is saying. Clarifying how we each understand the Bible is not the same as debating whether a Christian must believe in the Bible or not to be a Christian. To get into the latter is to get off topic for this subforum.

We both have faith, mine rests in the bible, yours rests in the Jesus seminar book. I feel that God wants me in this direction, I feel led by Spirit and preaching truth. The God I believe in is an omnipotent and omnipresent Being.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear EnemyPartyII

Paul says "because of this" but he doesn't really make it clear because of WHAT... at least not to my reading

He makes it very clear as Jet_A_Jockey has pointed out.

Paul's writings are true because Paul said they were true?

I am not sure what you mean by this, Jesus words in the gospel are only true becaue the gospel writers write it. The question is does one believe.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

Well we both know what being gay consists of, but we obviously do not reach agreement on what being a Christian consists of.

No, I think we established you don’t have the same understanding as Jet_A_Jockey and I of what gay is.
Jet_A_Jockey is absolutely correct, we must understand where we are each coming from in our different worldviews so we can understand what each of us is saying.

We both have faith, mine rests in the bible, yours rests in the Jesus seminar book.

I agree is that not correct?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Explain to me how they are in conflict with Christian teaching? I'm not going to argue paul's scriptural importance with you tonight, but its funny that since there are debatable passages in his writings, all of a sudden the veracity of them comes into play.

I have no problem with the veracity of them. I believe they adequately reflect what Paul sincerely believed on the matter... however saying that what Paul believed is the equivalent of the inerrant word of God just seems like a major leap to me

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Dear EnemyPartyII
He makes it very clear as Jet_A_Jockey has pointed out.
I am not sure what you mean by this, Jesus words in the gospel are only true becaue the gospel writers write it. The question is does one believe.[/i]

Um, no, Jesus words are true whether or not the Gospel writers write them down or not... just featuring in the Gospel does not = truth... nor does not featuring in the Gospel necesarily = untruth.

But more importantly, we are talking about PAUL's words... not Jesus' words

 

[Ohioprof]

Well we both know what being gay consists of, but we obviously do not reach agreement on what being a Christian consists of.
We both have faith, mine rests in the bible, yours rests in the Jesus seminar book. I feel that God wants me in this direction, I feel led by Spirit and preaching truth. The God I believe in is an omnipotent and omnipresent Being.

That's fine. We hold somewhat different beliefs, and we are different people.

What matters, I think, is how we treat others, and on that I think we agree. You have always been respectful toward gay people, and you have advocated treating gay people as equals. You have never called for excluding or stigmatizing gay people. I think you have been a fine example of the best of Christianity, from what I have seen.

Oh, but that is a personal comment, and I should not be making personal comments, probably not even complimentary ones. My bad.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

I have no problem with the veracity of them. I believe they adequately reflect what Paul sincerely believed on the matter... however saying that what Paul believed is the equivalent of the inerrant word of God just seems like a major leap to me

If paul's letters were not God-inspired, they would not have been in line with the rest of scriptures. And they wouldn't have stood the test of time, either. I believe that God works through people, prophets, and His followers. How do we know a scripture is correct? It's in line with the rest of scripture. As you read through the books of the bible, its evident that there are these types of connections between the books. They all speak the same truths.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Um, no, Jesus words are true whether or not the Gospel writers write them down or not... just featuring in the Gospel does not = truth... nor does not featuring in the Gospel necesarily = untruth.

But more importantly, we are talking about PAUL's words... not Jesus' words

When you read the book of luke, and Jesus is speaking, you are reading Jesus' words through Luke, are you not? Paul's conversion story says he met with the risen Christ. If you believe that paul is telling the truth, then he actually had more of an interpersonal relationship with Christ than luke ever did, so if we take that at face value, paul's words hold more merit. I'm not implying that its right to value different writers and books, because it really isn't. either you believe it or you don't.

Oh also, the only place I know of where Jesus actually wrote something was in the sand.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

That's fine. We hold somewhat different beliefs, and we are different people.

What matters, I think, is how we treat others, and on that I think we agree. You have always been respectful toward gay people, and you have advocated treating gay people as equals. You have never called for excluding or stigmatizing gay people. I think you have been a fine example of the best of Christianity, from what I have seen.

You are right, when it comes down to it, being a Christian is about DOING, not saying. We can talk to each other till we are blue in the face, but Christ's work for us is exactly that, WORK.

Thank you for the kind remarks, I do the work God gives me.

I appreciate that you approach other posters as more than just "arguments", and I hope everyone will start to treat other posters as people first and arguments second.

Oh, but that is a personal comment, and I should not be making personal comments, probably not even complimentary ones. My bad.

Lol I thought you climbed on the offtopic train with me days ago!

 

[Ohioprof]

You are right, when it comes down to it, being a Christian is about DOING, not saying. We can talk to each other till we are blue in the face, but Christ's work for us is exactly that, WORK.

Thank you for the kind remarks, I do the work God gives me.

I appreciate that you approach other posters as more than just "arguments", and I hope everyone will start to treat other posters as people first and arguments second.


Lol I thought you climbed on the offtopic train with me days ago!

I'm trying to discipline myself to stay on topic!