A question for FULL preterists

[postrib]

...Paul places resurrecton of the dead out of Hades at the end of the LAW AGE...

I don't believe he does. The Law was abolished on the cross: "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Colossians 2:14); "There is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof" (Hebrews 7:18).

...This passage is fulfilled...

This passage will be fulfilled when all those who are still alive and in Christ are changed in the twinkling of an eye into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:23, 51-53). This did not happen to any of the apostles.

...then Hades is still active and full of the same O.T. dead saints...

I believe that after his resurrection, Jesus went and preached to the former OT (by that point NT) saints: "Being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (1 Peter 3:18-19); "For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead" (1 Peter 4:6); and that he led them up into heaven with him when he ascended: "When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)" (Ephesians 4:8-10)

...then the Law of Moses is still the agent keeping sin active...

God forbid: "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death" (Romans 8:2).

http://www.geocities.com/postrib

 

[franklin]

Originally posted by Kelier
Nancy, I did not get my interpretation from any church or any person. I read the Bible for myself. So for you to say I am brainwashed is utter nonsense. Preterism is not based on biblical truth and it is unfortunate that you have bought into it.

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine....."

OK, I've had it! I've been reading comments by keler and aunt belle and I have to say GW has really layed it on the line with you guys and has spelled it out in plain english! Let me say this, you futurists only have interpretation and speculations as to your grounds for your beliefs, you don't go by the scriptures, but only man made interpretation of what you FEEL scripture is saying!!!

 

[Kelier]

I find it funny that you say that franklin, considering that you have NO CLUE how we came to our beliefs. I was not taught premillennialism by any man or church. I will believe God's word and what it truly and CLEARLY says.

 

[Shaggy]

posted by franklin:

Let me say this, you futurists only have interpretation and speculations as to your grounds for your beliefs

Let me say this, you Preterists only have interpretation and speculations as to your grounds for your beliefs.

Also I still don't understand how Preterists can think we are already living in the promised kingdom, I find this belief uncomprehensible, if Christ is here, where is he? And why is the world seemingly heading for tribulation?


Signs are pointing to the prophesy of Revelation as we speak.

What is the Preterist motive? Why are you so adamant?

 

[Mandy]

Yes indeed Shaggy! We can see that everything is winding down and pointing to the end. Just like Jesus said.

 

[davo]

Yes, I understand even Darwin believed as you do "it's all winding down" -just you guys reckon it's "soon" -and I guess soon enough you'll be able to jump. But then maybe Darwin was right -I mean how soon is your soon????

mischieviously yours:

davo

 

[Shaggy]

Well I'm waiting.........

Instead of insults, can you tell us how you can believe this is Christs kingdom? Where is Christ?

davo: Your post makes no sense, why not explain how this is Christs Kingdom instead of avoiding my question?

Point out something physical and "related" instead of just misinterpreted scripture that this is Christs Kingdom.

 

[Ozarkpreterist]

Originally posted by Shaggy


Let me say this, you Preterists only have interpretation and speculations as to your grounds for your beliefs.

Also I still don't understand how Preterists can think we are already living in the promised kingdom, I find this belief uncomprehensible, if Christ is here, where is he? And why is the world seemingly heading for tribulation?


Signs are pointing to the prophesy of Revelation as we speak.

What is the Preterist motive? Why are you so adamant?

Shaggy,

I can't believe you don't know where Jesus is on this earth.

"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me...(Gal 2:20)."

Have you looked in the mirror today. If you have, you have seen Christ's dwelling place on the earth. Where is He? If indeed Christ is in you, He is where you are. More than that if you are in Christ, you are where He is seated with Him in the heavenly places (Eph 2:6).

What is our motive? It is for the church to come to understand these things so that we can get about the business of reigning on the earth rather than waiting to be taken off the earth.

Ozark

 

[Shaggy]

Jesus SAID HE would return and ALL would SEE HIM!!

Sorry dude I haven't seen him. And I do believe I am included in the ALL part.

Your stance holds no water. I am sorry we are all brothers and sisters in Christ here, but y'all need to be aware that our Savior has yet to come, so take heart and thank the Lord this is not Christs Kingdom!!

 

[davo]

Originally posted by Shaggy
Sorry dude I haven't seen him. And I do believe I am included in the ALL part.

Shaggy, this is an ad-hominem argument -things haven't happened according to your experience -therefore they haven't happened. Even Israel missed her Day of Visitation -at least according to Jesus.

davo

 

[Shaggy]

davo, Jesus hasn't returned yet.

 

[Shaggy]

Originally posted by davo


Shaggy, this is an ad-hominem argument -things haven't happened according to your experience -therefore they haven't happened. Even Israel missed her Day of Visitation -at least according to Jesus.

davo

davo, NO ONE will miss Christs return, it will be glorious event, and no one will have ANY doubt when this happens. Please believe that!

 

[parousia70]

Shaggy, why don't you explain things from your point of view?

For instance, in your paradigm of the return of Christ, What happens after He arrives?

Does everyone on earth continue forever to see Him simultainously, or do we all have to Go to Jerusalem to see and be with Him?

Will we each get our own personal Jesus, or perhaps one on every street corner, like Santa, or do we have to wait in line in Jerusalem with the 2 billion other Christians?

I did the math on that once, I forget the specifics, but it worked out that even If there were only 10 million who were among the "saved of all ages", Each Christian would have to wait about 350 - 500 years just to spend 15 minutes "face to face" with Christ.

Is this what you are waiting for?

 

[parousia70]

BTW, Shaggy,

Were "all things written" fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 Just as Jesus promised they would be (Luke 21:20-22), or do you believe He was wrong about that?

If there is a 3rd option, I'd like to hear it.

 

[Shaggy]

For instance, in your paradigm of the return of Christ, What happens after He arrives?

Paradise!

Does everyone on earth continue forever to see Him simultainously, or do we all have to Go to Jerusalem to see and be with Him?

You must try to realize Gods dimension is not the same as human dimension. We can't comprehend this just like we can't comprehend that God is the Alpha (always been here)or just like we can't comprehend the Trinity. All will be revealed.

Will we each get our own personal Jesus, or perhaps one on every street corner, like Santa, or do we have to wait in line in Jerusalem with the 2 billion other Christians?

Again, not our dimension to speculate.

I did the math on that once, I forget the specifics, but it worked out that even If there were only 10 million who were among the "saved of all ages", Each Christian would have to wait about 350 - 500 years just to spend 15 minutes "face to face" with Christ.

Yet again not for us to comprehend, Gods time is not human time, you will just have to wait to find out after Christs return.


Don't you just have to believe there is more to Christs return and Kingdom than what we have here? You are selling our God short by thinking we are in Paradise now, when clearly it will be glorious! This isn't glorious. The only thing preterism has going for it is that it shares the same God.

Don't be so quick to think this is it!!

Perousia70:
You won't listen, if you did decide to live for the "UPCOMING* return of Christ you would have to change your username

In Christ, Shag

 

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by Shaggy

Perousia70:
You won't listen, if you did decide to live for the "UPCOMING* return of Christ you would have to change your username

In Christ, Shag

Before anyone in our day and time can assign verses in the New Testament about the Lord's return to our future, they must first prove that the (Old Testament Prophets ) clearly distinguished between two different coming of Christ.

Where does the OT prophets distinguish between "a coming in redemption" versus "a coming in judgment?" This king of language is not used by the Jewish prophets. (see Isa. 35:4-6, 40:10-11, 61:1-2, 62:11, 63:1-6, 66:6-16; Zech. 14; and Mal.4:1-6) A vital point, totally ignored, is that the Jewish prophecy never implied two comings divided by centuries.

The language used closely connects the coming of the Lord with both salvation and vengeance (judgment). Nowhere does the OT teach a "second coming" to fulfill the rest of the things he was unable to fulfill the first time. And Jesus ever distinguished between his first coming? (Matthew 26:62-64).

Please show us from the Old Testament or Jesus words were they distinguished between his first coming and a coming thousands of years in the future It is one thing to say something is in scripture and another thing to show it. So please show us from the Old Testament were it distinguished between His first and secound comings?

 

[Shaggy]

The New Testament was written for us. It clearly says Jesus' return will be glorious and ALL people will see it. We would know for sure if Jesus' Kingdom were here, it would be obvious! Why would Jesus blind us futurists by not letting us in on the fact this is his Kingdom?

Surely I am as saved as you, and you are as saved as me.

If this is Christs Kingdom why would the futurist not know it?

What? We don't deserve it? We are blinded? this does not make sense.

We can have a scripture war until our fingers bleed, so I want to know in your words why we don't get the pleasure of knowing this is Christs Kingdom. And you can't say it is inside of each of us, that does not work!! I am saved by the blood of Christ and would know if this was Christs Kingdom!!

Y'all are not making sense and this prospect of Preterism is scary! Would my belief system be scary in Christs Kingdom? No Way!

Saved by the blood of Christ, Shag

 

[davo]

Originally posted by Shaggy
Why would Jesus blind us futurists by not letting us in on the fact this is his Kingdom?

The last thing you should be doing is blaming Jesus for the errors you choose to believe -how about you take some responsibility and be accountable!

The Kingdom of Heaven, the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Christ are ALL one and the same -they are synonymous, and they are present NOW:

Matthew 19:23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Eph 5:5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. [notice this is in the singular]

Originally posted by Shaggy
If this is Christs Kingdom why would the futurist not know it?

That's a question you needs ask yourself -I can't speak for you. The Scriptures say otherwise to what you are purporting. Like all things -you have a choice in what you believe -it's unhealthy to point the finger at others for the things you cling to.

Originally posted by Shaggy
We can have a scripture war until our fingers bleed, so I want to know in your words why we don't get the pleasure of knowing this is Christs Kingdom.

Thankyou for asking. The ONLY thing stopping you from not knowing the pleasure and truth of scripture that Christ rules and reigns NOW is your faulty futurism you choose to hold above God's Word i.e., it seems your traditions are more important to you -and that is your business.

I can tell you that covenant eschatology proclaims the liberty and reality of Christ's Kingdom's rule TODAY, in this His world!

Now you may not like my answers -but remember, you asked.

davo

 

[jenlu]

Hey shaggy...

Jesus' life, death, ressurrection, and ascension changed drastically how God deals with humanity...no longer are the Jews the special race in the sight of God...He took away the covenant He made with them and gave it to a "nation" (people) that would produce fruit with it...that "nation" is the church(that's why Jesus' coming and the generation thereafter are described as the consumation of ages)...the church is made up of Jew and Gentile alike(on a level playing field) that have Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior and have been born again...the possibility of being born again was not in play before Christ's firt Advent...this open and complete access to the throne of God is how, while we are in the world, we are not of the world...so right now, we as Christian's can live as victorious conquerors in Christ over this world and "live" with Him being of His Kingdom, not of the world, though we are IN the world...This is why Jesus came...

To the fruit of the church that Jesus and the apostle's talked about...I believe it is to conquer(understand this not as war with weapons) the world...that is, to convert the world in the power and might of Jesus Christ...just as He taught the disciple's to pray...thy kingdom come, thy will be done...ON EARTH as it is in Heaven...So, I am not a preterist by the way: just a person that believes that the generation of Christ's first advent was the most important generation that ever existed, and we've just been adding to that foundation ever since: When Jesus sat to the right of His Father, His Kingdom was come and He became King of King's and Lord of Lord's and through His Word and His Church he began to conquer the world...and since I know He won't/can't fail, I have a great hope for tomorrow...

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Shaggy

You must try to realize Gods dimension is not the same as human dimension. We can't comprehend this just like we can't comprehend that God is the Alpha (always been here)or just like we can't comprehend the Trinity. All will be revealed.

Again, not our dimension to speculate.

Yet again not for us to comprehend, Gods time is not human time, you will just have to wait to find out after Christs return.

So, Shag, what you are telling me is that Christs Coming and subsiquent kingdom "Dimension" on earth will be "spiritual" in nature. Good point! You're halfway There. We just need to work on your Idea of the "timing".