A question for FULL preterists

[GW]

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um

Sorry GW, aka BJ, preterism is just another end time mania. Take away your end time sermons, and you're not left with much to say. Your entire ministry is based on the end times!!

Talking about fulfilled prophecies is hardly a mania or a madness -- otherwise the whole Church would be raving mad for always talking about the Cross.

However, if one believed that the Cross wasn't the truest fulfillment of God's sacrifice and that some other GREATER sacrifice was going to happen in our day with nothing but newspaper headlines for backing, that would be a mania or a madness.

This is exactly what we have going on with futurists, only concerning the great tribulation which was fulfilled in the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem at AD 66-70.

 

[armothe]

And I'm not bitter toward them, but when they accuse me of things that are not accurate, I will take up for myself.

Well, the only thing I've accused you of is harboring
ill feelings towards the general Preterist population. My accusation is sound based upon some of your recent posts.

I've read their threads, and I watch how they interact with others. It all reminds me of the days when I studied with JW & Mormons. No offence intended, that's just how I feel.

I agree that many Preterists (along with members of any other religion or denomination) can get quite zealous about their beliefs. But does this give you the right to shun them? Would you shun somebody if they are a Christan and strongly believe they do not need to partake of the Lord's supper?

I may disagree with Catholics on some things, but at least most Protestants and Catholics alike, look for the return of our Blessed Savior.

What about recent issues of corruption accusing the Catholic church of harboring pedophiles? Are you saying that you would rather align yourself with Catholocism rather than with people from your own church who happen to believe in a different eschatalogical viewpoint?

I don't think there is a church out there that adheres to the preterist doctrine, and if I am wrong about that, please enlighten me.

I don't know of too many churches that actively put additional doctrinal beliefs in their Church Creed, or Church Faith Statement. Most churches I know merely state that they adhere to: the soverignty of God, and that through Christ's sacrifice on the cross for mans' sins, we have been made able to receive the gift of eternal life.

There is a church in my area, where I know the pastor, and much of the congregation holds to a Preterist viewpoint. However, this is not mentioned in their Church Statement, nor do they go around forming parties to go and minister to non-preterists.

-A

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by postrib


parousia70:
Paul said preterism can destroy faith: "Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some" (2 Timothy 2:18).

So Postrib, in your view, will it still overthrow the faith of some if, after a proposed future resurrection, someone declares "the resurrection is passed"?

Will it ever be ok to say "the resurrection is passed" or do you believe it will always and forever be wrong to say?

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um


I don't think there is a church out there that adheres to the preterist doctrine, and if I am wrong about that, please enlighten me.

With Pleasure Dear Sister in Christ:

Here is a Link to several preterist ministries/churches in N. America. Maybe there is one near you!

Preterist Churches

Happy surfing!
YBIC,
P70

 

[TheBear]

Let me just say that just as Christians discuss doctrinal differences, such as once saved always saved, water baptism being required for salvation, the gifts of the Spirit, and a host of other teachings in other forums, this forum is designed to discuss the doctrinal differences between preterism and futurism. Erwin has made that abundantly clear.

Just a side note - It would be nice to see preterists involved in other, non-eschatology related discussions, and not appear to be so one-dimensional in their contributions to this board.


John

 

[armothe]

John,

Thank you for your kind words. I believe in another post Preterists were asked politely to keep "Preterist-oriented" comments to threads which specifically addressed Preterist issues.

Thanks for the invitation, though.

-A

 

[TheBear]

Originally posted by armothe
John,

Thank you for your kind words. I believe in another post Preterists were asked politely to keep "Preterist-oriented" comments to threads which specifically addressed Preterist issues.

Thanks for the invitation, though.

-A

Right. All I am saying is that there is soooo much more to Christianity than merely the eschatology aspect.

John

 

[Pericles]

Originally posted by TheBear


Right. All I am saying is that there is soooo much more to Christianity than merely the eschatology aspect.

John

John, I agree with you. It would be however hard to put it in your perspective and have you understand that realized-eschatology enhances a believer's relationship with God tremenduously. Knowing that Christ kept His word, was not wrong or mistaken, not only re-inforces his deity, but reinforces the inspiration of the Bible and one's relationship with God. Also knowing that Satan is now permanently defeated, and that sin is meaningless, and is continually cleansed by Christ's blood puts things in a whole new light.

Yes, there is a lot more to Christianity than eschatology, it's about coming out of death caused by sin, into life, given by Christ. Not on a physical level, but on the spiritual level... This is where preterism is consistent and where it gives hope and assurance to a believer.

 

[NumberOneSon]

Let me just say that just as Christians discuss doctrinal differences, such as once saved always saved, water baptism being required for salvation, the gifts of the Spirit, and a host of other teachings in other forums, this forum is designed to discuss the doctrinal differences between preterism and futurism. Erwin has made that abundantly clear.

Just a side note - It would be nice to see preterists involved in other, non-eschatology related discussions, and not appear to be so one-dimensional in their contributions to this board.

Thanks for the clarification, Bear! For the record, I'm involved in numerous other discussion forums where preterism is not my main focus or not even touched on at all. My subject matter changes depending on the topic or the forum. I'm sure it's that way for a lot of people, regardless of eschatological views.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[TheBear]

Originally posted by Pericles


John, I agree with you. It would be however hard to put it in your perspective and have you understand that realized-eschatology enhances a believer's relationship with God tremenduously. Knowing that Christ kept His word, was not wrong or mistaken, not only re-inforces his deity, but reinforces the inspiration of the Bible and one's relationship with God. Also knowing that Satan is now permanently defeated, and that sin is meaningless, and is continually cleansed by Christ's blood puts things in a whole new light.

Yes, there is a lot more to Christianity than eschatology, it's about coming out of death caused by sin, into life, given by Christ. Not on a physical level, but on the spiritual level... This is where preterism is consistent and where it gives hope and assurance to a believer.

Thank you for your opinions and views, Pericles.

My opinion and views is that preterism or futurism is not the end-all, say-all, all encompassing, and final say-so about Christianity. Far from it. It is merely one aspect of Christian teachings.

John

 

[Pericles]

Originally posted by TheBear


Thank you for your opinions and views, Pericles.

My opinion and views is that preterism or futurism is not the end-all, say-all, all encompassing, and final say-so about Christianity. Far from it. It is merely one aspect of Christian teachings.

John

Amen brother!!

 

[TheBear]

Originally posted by Acts6:5


Thanks for the clarification, Bear! For the record, I'm involved in numerous other discussion forums where preterism is not my main focus or not even touched on at all. My subject matter changes depending on the topic or the forum. I'm sure it's that way for a lot of people, regardless of eschatological views.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Well, if you consider 3 out of 147 posts, that have nothing to do with preterism or eschatological views, to be 'numerous', then I stand corrected. But, perhaps I misunderstand you. Are you referring to discussion boards, other than Christian Forums? If so, there are plenty of other forums in this board, and we welcome you to participate in those non-eschatological related discussion forums as well.

John

 

[Back To The Future]

Thanks to everyone who responded to my question. And I plan on going to the links poseted.

All I can say for me, is that since holding the Full preterist view to my heart I feel my faith has returned. I realize so much more now, that GOd kept his word, did what he said he was going to do. I know I have a long way to go in my studing of preterism, but I truely believe there is much more to it then end times thinking. It was the searching of the pre-trib, post-trib stuff that actually brought me to a web site on Preterism. Once I started reading, and learning , I was almost beside my self. It was like the truth was just jumping out at me, page after page. Now when I read the Bible it has taken on an entire meaning for me anyway.
I for one, don't have to worry and have all the hype about the end of the world. I can live now, in the prensence of Gods Kingdom. In my opinion, (and don't take this the wrong way) I feel that many Christians today are in the same mindset as the Jews in Jesus's day. Still waiting for a material kingdom. Waiting, Waiting, Waiting.
Jesus came, fullfilled everything he said he would. Isn't that just wonderful! I think so.
Blessing
Nancy

 

[davo]

Go Nancy!! . Yes, it is truly amazing how truth really does set you free -"lifting up your head"

davo

 

[Back To The Future]

I would like to know if the 1000 years talked about by the futurists, could really have perhaps been the 1000 years from what Daniel talked about to around 70 AD.

Just wondering.

 

[GW]

Originally posted by Back To The Future
I would like to know if the 1000 years talked about by the futurists, could really have perhaps been the 1000 years from what Daniel talked about to around 70 AD.

Just wondering.

Preterists are typically Amillennialists, believing that the "thousand years" is symbolic. Variations of explanations are given for the derivation of the symbol, but preterists believe Rev 20 is Davidic Monarchy language applied to Christ's reign up to final tribulation of the Commonwealth of Israel at AD 66-70.


Why "A Thousand Years"?

Some preterists will say that the "thousand years" is an idealization of the 40-years Advent of Christ of AD 30-70 which mirrors David's 40 years. They will cite St. John's number patterns throughout Revelation such as various squared and cubed numbers, noting that jews had common meanings for using numbers in this fashion to communicate. 40, 7, 10, 12, and others all have strong symbolic meaning in ancient Judaism. Squaring and cubing these numbers was a common practice in jewish apocalypses. 10X10X10 is the perfect number 10 magnified. I've not studied this symbolic number system in depth but it existed in John's day.



A Reference to the duration of the Davidic Monarchy?

Scott Hahn and other preterists believe the "thousand years" years is rooted in the Davidic Monarchy which spanned approximately 1000 years from David's generation to Christ's generation. Christ and David are the only two kings that matter in the Davidic Covenant typology -- David at the beginning of the Monarchy and his son Jesus at the END of the age. As you might remember, the Davidic covenant had fallen into ruin by the time of the Babylonian exile, but the prophets hoped the Monarchy would be restored someday when Messiah would come as the rightful heir and son of David. The Monarchy was restored by Jesus a thousand years after David ("the anointed").

Since Revelation 20 hinges entirely upon the Davidic Monarchy and Christ's reign upon David's Throne we have strong reason to think that the "thousand years" was used because that was the time between David (the type) and Jesus Christ (the antitype).



What About the Martyrs of Revelation 20?

As for rest of the saints mentioned in the passage, Paul had taught that the saints were seated with Christ on his throne (Eph 2:6) -- therefore we see the martyrs depicted as kings reigning with Him a thousand years, meaning they have also become kings of the Davidic Monarchy with Jesus. Isn't that a beautiful reality to ponder? Christ is reigning and all the saints with him.



What About Satan in Revelation 20?

The passage of Rev 20 speaks of an event at the end of the "thosand years" when satan would be loosed from his "prison" (cf. to Jude 1:6 and 2 Peter 2:4) to try and destroy the fledgling Church. Satan made martyrs of many but ultimately failed and then received his judgment (John 12:31; Rev 20:9-10). Peter had stated that the judgment had started as of 1 Peter 4:7 and 4:17 and that it started with the Church but was going to hit the wicked. Therefore, full preterists normally believe the loosing of satan is somewhere in the final 3.5 to 7 years of the 60s AD -- the "little season" of satan's loosing (Rev 20:3) may be parallel to the "short time" of Rev 12:12-14 which is a mere 3.5 years.

 

[Kelier]

Not only is preterism untenable, but it is unwise as well. Preterism undermines the encompassing nature of Scriptural prophecy, spiritualizes/allegorizes Scriptural passages, robs the saint of the hope of Jesus' imminent appearing, and produces a "lazy virgin" syndrome.


Undermines
The Bible encompasses human history from its inception to its end. It accurately taught history in advance, as it were; the dead-accurate prophecies of Moses, Isaiah, and others demonstrated God's Word's accuracy and divine origin.
The Bible also encompasses the entirety of human history this side of the Eternal State. Genesis describes in perfect detail the Beginning, and the Revelation (and other passages) predicts the End.
This is borne out by reading the works of preterists attacking dispensational eschatology. The chief aspect which is ridiculed seems to be the Doctrine of Imminency. This is Paul's teaching that Jesus' return is an "it-can-happen-at-any-moment" kind of thing.



Spirutalizes/Allegorizes
The preterist is forced to allegorize obviously literal passages of Text. He comes to Revelation 7:5-8 and is forced to assign spiritual meaning to the listed Twelve Tribes, and the numbers given. He comes to the Seal, Trumpet, and Bowl Judgments, and is forced to allegorize the obviously literal scenery; the "great burning mountain" of 7:8 suddenly becomes something other than a "great burning mountain." The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 become the Old and New Testaments, or something else other than what is obviously meant: That they are two literal humans who will prophesy for 3.5 years in the city of Jerusalem during the yet-future Tribulation Period. Etc.
The preterist, then, is forced to reject sensus literalis in the apocalyptic passages. It is not surprising, then, to note that most modern preterists also reject the Biblical account of a six-day Creation Week, but rather allegorize Genesis 1&2.


Robs
Hebrews 9:28b reads: "To those who eagerly await for Him He will appear a second time apart from sin, for salvation." In multitudinous other places in Scripture we are exhorted to "watch eagerly" for Jesus' coming. Preterism robs the saint of this "Great Hope of the Gospel;" the Pretribulational, Premillennial Return of Jesus Christ for His saints.


"Lazy Virgin"
Jesus speaks a parable about the end in Matthew 25 (immediately after He prophesies about the eschaton in chapter 24), in which there are ten virgins. Five kept oil in vessels, five were foolish. Five were prepared for the Bridegroom's return, five were not. Now, this parable is not speaking about believers (the Bridegroom does not allow the five foolish virgins in, but "casts them out into outer darkness," a fate reserved for unbelievers), but note Jesus' words at the end of the parable:
"Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming."

We are commanded to watch. To watch with expectancy, for the Bridegroom's coming is imminent (that is, it can occur at any time). Preterism falsely assumes that all the signs of the end have already been fulfilled, so there is no need to "watch".

 

[Auntie]

Thanks Kelier. Yes, preterism doctrines tend to undermine the very things that Jesus taught. Their doctrines also make a liar of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. I will listen to the Holy Spirit in my heart, and not the teachings of a strange doctrine.

 

[GW]

Originally posted by Kelier
Not only is preterism untenable, but it is unwise as well. Preterism undermines the encompassing nature of Scriptural prophecy, spiritualizes/allegorizes Scriptural passages, robs the saint of the hope of Jesus' imminent appearing, and produces a "lazy virgin" syndrome.

Ridiculous. Preterism CONFIRMS the encompassing and sure word of scriptural prophecy. It is futurism that actually renders Christ and the apostles into flawed men who erred on matters of MAJOR doctrine. They all unanimously taught and prophesied a return of Christ in their generation. That Day of the Lord came at AD 66-70. Furthermore, only those ignorant of the RESULTS of fulfilled bible prophecy could accuse preterists of a "lazy virgin" syndrome. WAS MOSES LAZY? WAS DAVID LAZY? WAS GIDEON LAZY? WAS ABRAHAM LAZY?

Originally posted by Kelier
Undermines
The Bible encompasses human history from its inception to its end. It accurately taught history in advance, as it were; the dead-accurate prophecies of Moses, Isaiah, and others demonstrated God's Word's accuracy and divine origin.
The Bible also encompasses the entirety of human history this side of the Eternal State. Genesis describes in perfect detail the Beginning, and the Revelation (and other passages) predicts the End.

Establishes:
Obvioiusly, there is no end of the time space universe (Ecc 1:4; Eph 3:21; Ps 78:69; Ps 89:36-37) nor any end of perpetual generations (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3, 34; Luke 1:33). HOWEVER, there WAS and "end of the age," the OLD TESTAMENTAL AGE. That end of the age had come upon the apostles generation:

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Originally posted by Kelier
Spirutalizes/Allegorizes
The preterist is forced to allegorize obviously literal passages of Text. He comes to Revelation 7:5-8 and is forced to assign spiritual meaning to the listed Twelve Tribes, and the numbers given...

Literalizes -- accepts historical/gramatical context:
Preterists are literalists probably more often than futurists. ALL views have spiritual-literal and physical-literal understandings in their reading of scripture.

Originally posted by Kelier
Robs:
Hebrews 9:28b reads: "To those who eagerly await for Him He will appear a second time apart from sin, for salvation." In multitudinous other places in Scripture we are exhorted to "watch eagerly" for Jesus' coming. Preterism robs the saint of this "Great Hope of the Gospel;" the Pretribulational, Premillennial Return of Jesus Christ for His saints.

Restores:
Preterism restores the fullness of bible prophecy by accepting WHEN the apostles and Christ taught and prophesied those endtimes events were to come to pass. Hebrews 9:28 is just a stone's throw from Heb 10:37 and 10:25 which place the second coming in the lifetimes of those 1st century saints.

Originally posted by Kelier
"Lazy Virgin"
Jesus speaks a parable about the end in Matthew 25 (immediately after He prophesies about the eschaton in chapter 24), in which there are ten virgins. Five kept oil in vessels, five were foolish. Five were prepared for the Bridegroom's return, five were not. Now, this parable is not speaking about believers (the Bridegroom does not allow the five foolish virgins in, but "casts them out into outer darkness," a fate reserved for unbelievers), but note Jesus' words at the end of the parable:
"Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming."

Dominion/The Kingdom of God (Mark 1:14-15):
One cannot accuse someone of lazy dealings concerning an event that is already past. And the assumption that victorious faith is dependent on an "any moment now" attitude towards some 3rd return of Christ is an injustice to Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, Jeremiah, Ezra, Malachi and all the greats of the faith and of the Holy Covenant -- none of these men had an "any moment now" attitude toward the second coming. Besides, Christ is not absent.

Preterism has a comprehensive COVENANTAL worldview of our times and for eternity ahead. The New Covenant Age of Christ's Holy Nation is eternal and has no end! (Eph 3:21; Heb 13:20; Rev 14:6). Rather, Christ's Nation has ALL DOMINION (Dan 7:14, 27; Rev 1:6; 1 Pet 4:11; Eph 1:21; Matt 28:18; Matt 16:18-19).

 

[armothe]

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um
I will listen to the Holy Spirit in my heart, and not the teachings of a strange doctrine.

Are you sure it's the Holy Spirit telling you that Christ is coming "NOW" (as you believe)?

Are you sure that past Sunday School teachings, Sunday morning sermons, and the popular belief in your church aren't influencing your beliefs on eschatology?

In another post you stated that the "end times" were happening NOW.

How loosly are you defining NOW? In the next few days? In the next few years? 2020? Within your lifetime? Would you be so bold as to place a date on the Day of the Lord?
Seriously, I'd like to hold you (and others) accountable for your claims.

And just by chance, if I am wrong, and Christ sweeps the Christians away tomorrow, I will rejoice with you, give you a Holy kiss and admit I was wrong.

-A