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A Question for Creationists

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OllieFranz

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What mutation did that and how did it happen? What was panther before it was a panther?

A pantherine. The snow leopard and the clouded leopard are still pantherines. But I was actuall going in the opposite direction. What was once a single kind, panther, is now four different kinds lions, tigers, leopards, and jaguars.

No ring speies became something other than what it was originally. The salamanders remaied salamanders, the warblers remaind warblers etc.
And panthers remain panthers, except that there are now four kinds of panther, whereas before there was only one. You are still stuck on the "cats don't give birth to puppies" strawman. No evolutionist claims that they do.
 
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Loudmouth

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From whatg wer we altered and how did idt happen?

We were altered from a common ancestor with chimps, and it happened through the accumulation of mutations.

You have taken the usual evo rhetoric as the truth by faith alone. We are primates. Our DNA and the DNA of chimps will prove we were never related.

How does our DNA prove we were never related?

WE are mammala but our DNA will veify that we were never in the bear line.

Show us how this is done.

Each exsmple gits more absurd and of course you are just spouting the usual evo rhetoric and have not offered the first bit of evidence to prove what you say.

I offered you genetic evidence. You ignored it. We have offered you fossil evidence, and you once again ignore it. Here it is again:

The most cited example in these forums are ERV's, which are discussed here:

ERVs - Evidence for the Evolutionary Model

The gist of it is that retroviruses insert randomly into the host genome. This can lead to a retroviral insertion becoming a permanent part of the host genome, and can be inherited if it happens in a gamete. As it turns out, humans have just over 200,000 of these retroviral insertions in our genome. We also found that there are about the same number of ERV's in the chimp genome. When we compared them, we found that over 99% of them were found at the same location in each genome. Due to the random nature of viral insertion, it is nearly impossible for these insertions to occur at the same base due to separate infections at such a high rate. The only explanation is that the viral insertion happened once, in a common ancestor.

There are tons of other examples if you want them. For example, all apes, including humans, have the same mutation in our GULO gene that is responsible for vitamin C synthesis which results in none of the apes being able to produce their own vitamin C. Why would we all have the same exact mutation, unless the mutation happened once in a common ancestor?

Now you are making claims that DNA disproves common ancestry, but you offer zero evidence that this is so. Please present this evidence.

Since you know it all about the evolutionary stuff, can you explain how the second life form acquired bones from a parent that did not have bones, did not need bones and did not have a gene for bones?

I will put on my prophecy hat and predict you will not answer that question.

I am not familiar with how the earliest vertebrates evolved bony structures, but given your refusal to deal with the evidence already presented what would be the incentive for me to dig up more evidence that you will ignore? Why don't you deal with the evidence that I presented above, and then we will look at the origin of bones.
 
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Loudmouth

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It can prove "after its kind" and so can you if you plant some corn. Not only will you get corn, you will get the exact same variey you planted. That has been understood for thousands of years.

Then prove it. Show that the ancestors of humans did not include species from other kinds.

There can only be one Creator.

Evidence?

You don't believe in a God at all, why not?

For the same reason you don't believe in Santa Claus. There is no evidence of God.
 
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Loudmouth

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When you keep responding with questions it suggests you have no answers.

When you can't support your claims you have no explanation.

Cause and effect. We call the effect "matter" and we call the cause "God".

Please present evidence that God was the cause.
 
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AV1611VET

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There is no evidence of God.

History shows us that lacks of evidence can be fatal, can't they?

Ask the Curies, or a generation of Thalidomites.
 
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CabVet

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History shows us that lacks of evidence can be fatal, can't they?

Ask the Curies, or a generation of Thalidomites.

Yes, believing in a deity (or a medicine) with no evidence to support it can be fatal, I didn't think you would agree with that in a million years, but alas.
 
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CabVet

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Matter cannot create itself out of nothing. A creation not ony reuires a Creator, one that works the same all the time requires a Intelligent Designer.

A creator cannot create itself out of nothing. Who created the creator?
 
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frogman2x

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They are, for the most part, gotten encoded in their DNA. So yes, you are talking about DNA.

If you want to make DNA rather than genes the most importaqnt facdtor, fine but if the parents do not have a gene for bones, offsrping will not have the DNA for bones and the kid will not have bones. Do you think the first life form had bones?

But you are related biologically to all human beings, even in the YEC view. At the very least, we are all descendants of Noah.

Yes, we are all the same species, but our DNA will separage us from all other species. Noah was a descent of Adam.

Just to let you know that this is almost the definition of a biological species. The only difference is that the biological species definition specifies fertile offspring. So horses and donkeys are the same kind but not the same biological species.

With my definiton they would not be the same kind.

By the way, how do you know that humans and great apes can't produce offspring? The experiments haven't been done for obvious ethical reasons, but we are, genetically speaking, extremely close to great apes. I wouldn't be at all surprised if a human could have kids with a chimpanzee, although I'd rather people didn't actually try it...

Our DNA will not allow it. Years ago they tried to transplant a babbon(I think) heart into a human. I think he livied 3 days.
 
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EternalDragon

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We were altered from a common ancestor with chimps, and it happened through the accumulation of mutations.

That is a theory. A prediction. There is no observable proof of it.

Hence the frantic search for the fossil evidence over the last couple hundreds of years, which has never really been found as yet.

The line of humans are thought to have diverged with Sahelanthropis, of which we have ONE fragment of ONE skull, and/or Orrorin of which we have only 20 bone fragments. A thumb, some teeth, a leg bone, etc.

I call that circumstantial evidence at best.
 
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CabVet

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That is a theory. A prediction. There is no observable proof of it.

You seem to know neither what a theory nor what a prediction is.

Hence the frantic search for the fossil evidence over the last couple hundreds of years, which has never really been found as yet.

The fossil evidence is here and thoroughly ignored by you.

The line of humans are thought to have diverged with Sahelanthropis, of which we have ONE fragment of ONE skull, and/or Orrorin of which we have only 20 bone fragments. A thumb, some teeth, a leg bone, etc.

I call that circumstantial evidence at best.

Oh, so now you come from no observable proof and no fossils to circumstantial evidence? I see...
 
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Loudmouth

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That is a theory. A prediction. There is no observable proof of it.

The observable proof is the mutations that separate humans and chimps. Those are the mutations that accumulated over time in one or the other genome.

Hence the frantic search for the fossil evidence over the last couple hundreds of years, which has never really been found as yet.

We found them.

hominids2_big.jpg



I call that circumstantial evidence at best.

We have both the fossil and genetic evidence.
 
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Elendur

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Matter cannot create itself out of nothing. A creation not ony reuires a Creator, one that works the same all the time requires a Intelligent Designer.
Ok. You kind of missed to answer the question.

Even assuming that cannot create itself out of nothing.
Even assuming a creation require a creator.

How did you come to the conclusion that the universe came into being (/have had a beginning)?
 
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EternalDragon

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A creator cannot create itself out of nothing. Who created the creator?

Your statement is using the logical conclusion that matter can't be created
from nothing and that life could not have come about by itself.

Do you now concede that planets, the sun, the earth and living things did
not come about from say...the big bang? or by natural processes?

Or are you saying they could and therefore God (an intelligent designer) could
have developed through the same processes? You can't have it both ways.
 
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Loudmouth

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Your statement is using the logical conclusion that matter can't be created
from nothing and that life could not have come about by itself.

Why would matter need to come from nothing in order for our universe to have a natural origin?

Also, where did you show that life can not come about by itself? This is just an empty assertion on your part.

Do you now concede that planets, the sun, the earth and living things did
not come about from say...the big bang? or by natural processes?

All of the matter in our universe came from the condensation of energy, not nothing.
 
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