A Question for Creationists

[Archaeopteryx]

No, it is not. You should know ... you wrote it.

I know what it is I wrote, so stop trying to misrepresent it.

 

[Loudmouth]

I personally believe in old earth creationism which allows science and the bible, particuilarly Genisis, to blend together perfectly without contridiction. This site answered so many questions I felt were not answered in an intelligent manner by the church, that I started diggin into my self and was blown away with the amount of relevant and updated information with todays scientific community. It has been building my faith by leaps and bounds, and I can answer questions that many non believers, especially the scientific smart guy, loves to ask. I really enjoy it. Great stuff

Does old earth creationism also incorporate the common ancestor of humans and other apes as demonstrated by genetics?

 

[KWCrazy]

Boatloads of evidence. That is a funny one. Since we all have the same evidence to work with then creationists also have a "boatload" of evidence.

Absolutely correct. Each of us looks at the evidence and decides for ourselves which makes more sense; creation or evolution? The difference is, we have more evidence. Here's why.

In addition to the easily seen structures of the world around us, there is an unseen and infinitely more significant existence that can't be constrained into a purely natural world view. The OP asks what could shake a believer's faith. The part that theists don't get and will never understand is that we come to God through faith, but it doesn't end there. We also have the Holy Spirit; a direct link to God Himself. Through the Holy Spirit we have a personal connection with God. We don't have to BELIEVE He exists. We can KNOW He exists. They can't. They have no such connection.

If I tell you I have a friend named Bill you might believe me or you might not. if you meet Bill, dine with him, visit his house, have him in your house and read things he's written, you develop an understanding that Bill is a real person. It's the same when you actually develop a relationship with God. You may loose your way because you allow the pressures of the world to keep you from His word and from fellowship with Him, but it's hard to pretend that He doesn't exist after knowing Him. Beyond that, it's hard to take people seriously when they claim that He doesn't exist and that they're smarter than you are because you believe in a non-existent entity.

When you've experienced the presence of God, those who deny He exists appear foolish.

When you've seen or experienced the presence of demons, those who deny they exist appear foolish.

When you've seen or experienced the presence of angels, those who deny they exist appear foolish.

When you've seen or experienced miracles, those who deny they exist appear foolish.

If God exists and if His word states that He created the world in a mature state, it only makes sense to base your understanding on that which you know to be true. Evolutionists see the same information we do, but they try to interpret it using the presumption that some how in violation of all the laws of science the universe created itself billions of years ago without any direction or design. Lacking any knowledge of God, they base everything they believe solely on naturalism.

 

[bhsmte]

The terrorists tried to bring the twin towers down with explosive charges years before 9/11 and it did not work.

We all know that.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Absolutely correct. Each of us looks at the evidence and decides for ourselves which makes more sense; creation or evolution? The difference is, we have more evidence. Here's why.

In addition to the easily seen structures of the world around us, there is an unseen and infinitely more significant existence that can't be constrained into a purely natural world view. The OP asks what could shake a believer's faith. The part that theists don't get and will never understand is that we come to God through faith, but it doesn't end there. We also have the Holy Spirit; a direct link to God Himself. Through the Holy Spirit we have a personal connection with God. We don't have to BELIEVE He exists. We can KNOW He exists. They can't. They have no such connection.

You "know" in the same way that a Muslim "knows" Allah.

If I tell you I have a friend named Bill you might believe me or you might not. if you meet Bill, dine with him, visit his house, have him in your house and read things he's written, you develop an understanding that Bill is a real person. It's the same when you actually develop a relationship with God. You may loose your way because you allow the pressures of the world to keep you from His word and from fellowship with Him, but it's hard to pretend that He doesn't exist after knowing Him. Beyond that, it's hard to take people seriously when they claim that He doesn't exist and that they're smarter than you are because you believe in a non-existent entity.

When you've experienced the presence of God, those who deny He exists appear foolish.

When you've seen or experienced the presence of demons, those who deny they exist appear foolish.

When you've seen or experienced the presence of angels, those who deny they exist appear foolish.

When you've seen or experienced miracles, those who deny they exist appear foolish.

I've experienced what I believed, at the time, was the presence of Gods, demons, angels and miracles. In retrospect, however, I did not have any reason to believe such things.

If God exists and if His word states that He created the world in a mature state, it only makes sense to base your understanding on that which you know to be true. Evolutionists see the same information we do, but they try to interpret it using the presumption that some how in violation of all the laws of science the universe created itself billions of years ago without any direction or design. Lacking any knowledge of God, they base everything they believe solely on naturalism.

But how do you know it to be true? You are confusing faith with knowledge.

 

[Oncedeceived]

You "know" in the same way that a Muslim "knows" Allah.

That is not true. Muslims do not experience God. They believe that God can not interact with mere men. You would have to be a prophet for God to be able to be experienced in anyway.

I've experienced what I believed, at the time, was the presence of Gods, demons, angels and miracles. In retrospect, however, I did not have any reason to believe such things.

Why did you conclude that you had no reason to believe any of these things?

But how do you know it to be true? You are confusing faith with knowledge.

You didn't ask me this, but if you said that you said you experienced Gods...I would then have to say that you did not in fact experience God. If you are you know it.

 

[Oncedeceived]

KWCrazy I hear ya.

 

[EternalDragon]

Does old earth creationism also incorporate the common ancestor of humans and other apes as demonstrated by genetics?

You mean have similar design features. Genetics has not shown that humans evolved from apes. You may believe that some of their loose inferences are correct but that is all they are.

 

[KWCrazy]

But how do you know it to be true? You are confusing faith with knowledge.

The law of inertia holds that a body in motion tends to stay in motion while a body of rest tends to stay at rest. To put a body at rest into motion a force has to be applied to it which is greater than the force of inertia. In other words, objects do not simply move in static environments unless they ARE moved. If you see something move without any natural force moving in, then that provides some evidence of an unnatural force. Having seen such a thing you might not be able to identify the unnatural force, but you certainly can know there is one. Autokinesis as anything other than an optical illusion cannot be explained scientifically, but millions have experienced it.

When you see one evidence of something unnatural or supernatural you might wonder if it could be true. When you have many, many such evidences over a lifetime you cease to wonder and accept that there are things in this world that science can never explain. When you see the power of the Lord completely change a person's life; when you see and experience things that are truly miraculous; then you know that God is real. As I said, this is a knowledge that you can never experience until you first come to God through faith.

 

[VDMA]

Why don't you want to know what is really happening?

Archaeopteryx,

I do know what is happening. (Or in a sense what happened). To ask you a quick question, in the words of God Himself to Job:

"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding." Job 38:4 ESV


God himself gives us a firm and inerrant account of the Creation of the world. Inerrant does not mean that everything in the Bible is to be taken literally, as surely Christ speaks in parables, but simply says that this really happened.

Let's run through that quickly.

God created the world in Six Days through his Son Jesus Christ.

"For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him." Colossians 1:16

God created Man and Woman, giving them free will, who by their own choice were tempted of the serpent, that is Satan, the deceiver of worlds. Ever since then Man, through his original choice, has been born in sin, and with the constant temptation to sin.

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned." Romans 5:12

Fast forward a few thousand years, past the flood, past Moses, all the way up to the Roman control of Judea.

God, seeing His beloved Creation dead in sin (and yes dead, for just as a dead man cannot choose his casket so too can we not choose the Savior), left His Glory above, got off of his throne, and came down to be one of us, a human, a man.

And rather than come in the form of a King or of power, God came in the form of a Jewish carpenter. A carpenter. When God manifested himself in Christ, he took the form of a worker, a blue-collar, every day Joe. Except Christ had no sin, and was at the same time fully divine. And this God did not come in anger, but rather in love. He healed the sick, preached forgiveness, and turned the sinners from their evil ways.

And then, to top it all off, He died for you. Your sins, from the time you yelled at your mom, to the time you cheated on a test, every terrible thing you have ever done and ever will do, for which you deserve to be punished, for every lustful thought, and bout of anger, and manifested wrongdoing, he took upon himself. He loved You, his Son in Christ, so much, that He endured terrible pain and suffering, and was NAILED, to a Cross. For you.

He died just so you could spout off at Christians and tell them how stupid they were because they don't believe in a 150 year old theory that can barely be proven.

But the truth is, while some here may tell you to accept him, I know that's not how it works.

Christ found me, and gave me faith, I didn't choose to follow him.

We, you, me, your grandmother, my grandmother, and every other human on this Earth, deserves to rot in hell for all eternity because of our faults.

But God loves us too much.

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."
1 Corinthians 15:22

Hopefully you will find Christ. I shall pray for you.

God truly is wonderful.

 

[EternalDragon]

When you've experienced the presence of God, those who deny He exists appear foolish.

When you've seen or experienced the presence of demons, those who deny they exist appear foolish.

When you've seen or experienced the presence of angels, those who deny they exist appear foolish.

When you've seen or experienced miracles, those who deny they exist appear foolish.

If God exists and if His word states that He created the world in a mature state, it only makes sense to base your understanding on that which you know to be true. Evolutionists see the same information we do, but they try to interpret it using the presumption that some how in violation of all the laws of science the universe created itself billions of years ago without any direction or design. Lacking any knowledge of God, they base everything they believe solely on naturalism.

Nicely put! I have, by the way, experienced the presence of demonic activity quite a few times. Some of my friends have experienced this and the presence of angels as well.

Many miraculous things have happened in my life that are beyond natural explanation.

 

[mzungu]

You mean have similar design features. Genetics has not shown that humans evolved from apes. You may believe that some of their loose inferences are correct but that is all they are.

First of all Humans ARE apes. We belong to the Great African Ape family. Secondly we did not evolve from apes; we have a common ancestor with our ape cousins.
Really now; must you keep bearing false witness by warping and twisting what ToE says? None of the creationists here have ever bothered to read let alone understand what ToE is all about.

You claim to have evidence that refutes ToE? then publish your evidences, get them peer reviewed, and go collect your Nobel Prize. I mean; who would say no to one million dollars and worldwide fame, eh? What creationist would not jump to the opportunity to silence these heathen evilutionists once and for all, eh?

Put your money where your claims are or just do the right thing and study that which you so fervently denounce first.

 

[AV1611VET]

Really now; must you keep bearing false witness by warping and twisting what ToE says?

Genetics can say anything.

All genetics does is draw lines between species and expect us to go along.

In fact, they even change those lines at times and call it cladistics.

Please answer this question: Did Hitler bear false witness by warping and twisting what the ToE says?

If so, where?

 

[biggles53]

So you are not really claiming that creationists are not as smart as anyone else, it is just that you can't believe that someone could ignore evidence for evolution and must by default be ...psychologically needy?

You may not like the evidence that is available, but it is quite conclusive in pointing out the fact that religious belief is very closely tied with a lower level of education and/or standard of living. This is true at both the national and international view and also mirrors the educational continuum within a culture. This phenomenon is even more pronounced when we examine fundamentalist belief such as creationism. Some may use this to insult others, but the facts behind it are inescapable ...

How does a lack of belief in evolution provide the necessary conclusion of being psychologically needy? The two don't relate in my mind.

I don't think its so much a case of not accepting evolutionary theory....I think it's more to do with an embrace of the imaginary and the supernatural, at the expense of reality..

 

[AV1611VET]

You may not like the evidence that is available, but it is quite conclusive in pointing out the fact that religious belief is very closely tied with a lower level of education and/or standard of living.

Ya ... the United States and Israel are at the low end of the GNP, aren't they?

 

[mzungu]

Genetics can say anything.

All genetics does is draw lines between species and expect us to go along.

In fact, they even change those lines at times and call it cladistics.

Are you dismissing the science of genetics?

Please answer this question: Did Hitler bear false witness by warping and twisting what the ToE says?

If so, where?

Hitler was a creationist Nazi dogma is based on racial bias and is pagan in belief.

We are discussing creationism vs science here not the demented beliefs of a madman.

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

Genetics can say anything.

All genetics does is draw lines between species and expect us to go along.

In fact, they even change those lines at times and call it cladistics.

Please answer this question: Did Hitler bear false witness by warping and twisting what the ToE says?

If so, where?

Did Hitler ever mention the theory of evolution? If so where?

 

[biggles53]

Absolutely correct. Each of us looks at the evidence and decides for ourselves which makes more sense; creation or evolution? The difference is, we have more evidence. Here's why.

Oh dear...why do I suspect that the word "evidence" is about to be corrupted..?

In addition to the easily seen structures of the world around us, there is an unseen and infinitely more significant existence that can't be constrained into a purely natural world view.

So...immediately we have moved away from evidence and into the realm of unsubstantiated claims...how surprising...

The OP asks what could shake a believer's faith. The part that theists don't get and will never understand is that we come to God through faith, but it doesn't end there. We also have the Holy Spirit; a direct link to God Himself. Through the Holy Spirit we have a personal connection with God. We don't have to BELIEVE He exists. We can KNOW He exists. They can't. They have no such connection.

And yet, you can provide NO evidence that these claimed entities exist......so what were you saying about having "more" evidence..??

If I tell you I have a friend named Bill you might believe me or you might not. if you meet Bill, dine with him, visit his house, have him in your house and read things he's written, you develop an understanding that Bill is a real person. It's the same when you actually develop a relationship with God.

Ummmm....no it's not. There is a vitally basic difference. If Bill is a real person, I can provide EVIDENCE of his existence! And I can present that evidence to others for their examination...! I can show Bill to them, they can touch him, listen to him speak, they can even smell him if they wish...and, I can repeat that evidence repeatedly, should it be required...

Please do "the same" with your claimed god....

You may loose your way because you allow the pressures of the world to keep you from His word and from fellowship with Him, but it's hard to pretend that He doesn't exist after knowing Him. Beyond that, it's hard to take people seriously when they claim that He doesn't exist and that they're smarter than you are because you believe in a non-existent entity.

Is your problem that your god might not exist, or that people might be smarter than you..?

When you've experienced the presence of God, those who deny He exists appear foolish.

When you've seen or experienced the presence of demons, those who deny they exist appear foolish.

When you've seen or experienced the presence of angels, those who deny they exist appear foolish.

When you've seen or experienced miracles, those who deny they exist appear foolish.

If God exists and if His word states that He created the world in a mature state, it only makes sense to base your understanding on that which you know to be true. Evolutionists see the same information we do, but they try to interpret it using the presumption that some how in violation of all the laws of science the universe created itself billions of years ago without any direction or design. Lacking any knowledge of God, they base everything they believe solely on naturalism.

It's ok, I think you just answered my last question.....

 

[mzungu]

Ya ... the United States and Israel are at the low end of the GNP, aren't they?

The vast majority of Israelis accept ToE. It is true that people who lack an education in the sciences are more prone to believe what their religion teaches them and will accept the claims that ToE and or science are basically the workings of the devil. However there are many people who are smart and educated (mostly in the US) who are fervently against ToE for reasons mentioned above.

This whole issue of creationism was born in America and is slowly being propagated throughout the world especially in the poorer regions where science education is lacking.

The problem here is that creationism has become a multi billion dollar industry in America and all manner of ways are being invented to dissuade the general public from accepting science in general.

One needs only to follow the money!

 

[biggles53]

Ya ... the United States and Israel are at the low end of the GNP, aren't they?

Ah, come in spinner...! Please tell the good folk here which of the states in the US have the highest levels of religious belief....!?