A Question for Catholics

[RileyG]

Did I say that or did you just say that I did? Or did someone else say it?

Could you possibly agree that the conclusion of the definition of the Assumption in 1950 requires neither believing Mary died first nor requires believing that she did not die before being assumed? It is not part of definitive Catholic teaching one way or the other. Which means that you can look down on us all you want but it's pretty much over nothing.

Correct. The Church does not teach she physically died or not. Regardless, the only thing that matters, in relation to that dogma, was her body was taken into heaven.

Simple.

 

[Valletta]

Correct. The Church does not teach she physically died or not. Regardless, the only thing that matters, in relation to that dogma, was her body was taken into heaven.

Simple.

Amen.

Luke 1: 46-55
46 And Mary said,
"My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden.
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;
49 for he who is mighty has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.
50 And his mercy is on those who fear him
from generation to generation.
51 He has shown strength with his arm,
he has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts,
52 he has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree;
53 he has filled the hungry with good things,
and the rich he has sent empty away.
54 He has helped his servant Israel,
in remembrance of his mercy,
55 as he spoke to our fathers,
to Abraham and to his posterity for ever.”[a] RSVCE

 

[jas3]

Did I say that or did you just say that I did? Or did someone else say it?

This is what I'm referring to:

Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, ad infinitum.

But if it was so definitive then the statement of the pope would have included it in it's conclusion as a matter of course instead of having reticence in stating as dogma what you are so dogmatically convinced of.

Could you possibly agree that the conclusion of the definition of the Assumption in 1950 requires neither believing Mary died first nor requires believing that she did not die before being assumed?

Sure.

It is not part of definitive Catholic teaching one way or the other.

Does the entirety of definitive Catholic teaching on the subject come from this document's conclusion, or are there other sources?

 

[Valletta]

Does the entirety of definitive Catholic teaching on the subject come from this document's conclusion, or are there other sources?

Catholics believe that the deposit of the faith handed down from the Apostles ended with the death of the last Apostle. Basic truths of the faith were revealed by God early on but others truths were not revealed for some time. Often there is a need, perhaps heresy, perhaps theological differences, that precipitates a formal definitive teaching announcement by the Church. For example, in the case of the Biblical canon the Church wanted a definitive list of the books of Holy Scripture that could be read at mass--a liturgical list. For the Assumption the definitive teaching, the dogma, did not occur until 1950. There had been heavy discussion of the Assumption in the late 1800s, and during Vatican I a couple of hundred bishops signed a letter asking for clarification. on the subject The pope eventually sent out a letter to the bishops asking them if they wanted a dogmatic statement on the Assumption and if they agreed Mary was assumed into Heaven. After a great positive response from the bishops, the pope declared the dogma.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Yes, but in different "stages" (not the best word I am sure, but I hope you know what I mean). If Christians are meant to ask Christians in heaven to pray for them, it seems to me extremely surprising that we have no mention of such a thing in the whole of the New Testament. We do have the wonderful truth that the Saviour Himself is in heaven interceding for His people:

“Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.” (Heb 7:25 NKJV)

We also have examples of Christians requesting other Christians here on earth to pray for them, for instance:

“praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints — and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.” (Eph 6:18-20 NKJV)

But I cannot think of a single reference to requesting Christians in heaven to pray for Christians on earth.

We do not have a reference forbidding the practice either. We do have an example in the Gospel from the parable of the rich man and Lazarus that departed souls can converse about the living, even those in torment

Could we not believe that those is paradise would have concern for souls still living and therefore pray for them? It is not outside the realm of possibility. The Catholic Church only canonizes a saint when two miracles can be attributed to them by request of intercession. It is not arbitrary and is a rigorous process. The Church does not say oh that was a good man or woman, let’s make them a saint. The reply is always oh yeah? What have they done? What is
the evidence?

God rules a kingdom, and we are a communion of saints. We are not required to live as every man for himself and only Jesus till we get to heaven.
We are one body, one spirit, in Christ. Christ is all and is in all

 

[David Lamb]

We do not have a reference forbidding the practice either. We do have an example in the Gospel from the parable of the rich man and Lazarus that departed souls can converse about the living, even those in torment

Could we not believe that those is paradise would have concern for souls still living and therefore pray for them? It is not outside the realm of possibility.

Those in heaven will be fully engaged in beholding and worshipping their Saviour. It is He Who is in heaven interceding for Christians on earth.

The Catholic Church only canonizes a saint when two miracles can be attributed to them by request of intercession. It is not arbitrary and is a rigorous process. The Church does not say oh that was a good man or woman, let’s make them a saint. The reply is always oh yeah? What have they done? What is
the evidence?

That is not biblical. In the bible, the word "saint" is used of every Christian. It is never used as a title for a special class of Christian - you'll look in vain for mentions of anybody named "Saint Matthew", "Saint Luke," and so on. Yes, som bibles in English have headings such as "The Gospel According to Saint John," but the headings were created by the translators - they are not part of God's inspired Word.

God rules a kingdom, and we are a communion of saints. We are not required to live as every man for himself and only Jesus till we get to heaven.
We are one body, one spirit, in Christ. Christ is all and is in all

True, so we are to pray for each other here on earth.

 

[Valletta]

Those in heaven will be fully engaged in beholding and worshipping their Saviour. It is He Who is in heaven interceding for Christians on earth.

That is not biblical. In the bible, the word "saint" is used of every Christian. It is never used as a title for a special class of Christian - you'll look in vain for mentions of anybody named "Saint Matthew", "Saint Luke," and so on. Yes, som bibles in English have headings such as "The Gospel According to Saint John," but the headings were created by the translators - they are not part of God's inspired Word.

You are correct that we all may be called saints, but that is only one sense of the word. The custom of singling out and honoring people started early in the Catholic Church. In fact Catholics are known to have kept "relics," things associated with those considered as living in holiness, as far back as the first century:

Acts 19:11-12 11 And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them. Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition

Here is an excerpt from a letter of the second century honoring a saint:

"We have at last gathered his bones, which are dearer to us than priceless gems and purer than gold, and laid them to rest where it was befitting they should lie. And if it be possible for us to assemble again, may God grant us to celebrate the birthday of his martyrdom with gladness, thus to recall the memory of those who fought in the glorious combat, and to teach and strengthen by his example, those who shall come after us."
The Circular Letter of the Church of Smyrna on the Martyrdom of St. Polycarp, 155 A.D.

Once Protestants dropped the belief of the purification spoken of in the Bible that Catholic call "purgatory," it makes sense they quit using the title of "saint."

 

[David Lamb]

You are correct that we all may be called saints, but that is only one sense of the word. The custom of singling out and honoring people started early in the Catholic Church. In fact Catholics are known to have kept "relics," things associated with those considered as living in holiness, as far back as the first century:

Acts 19:11-12 11 And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them. Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition

The vital thing is to note that it wasn't the handkerchiefs or aprons that caused the healing, for note the first words: "And God did extraordinary miracles."

Here is an excerpt from a letter of the second century honoring a saint:


"We have at last gathered his bones, which are dearer to us than priceless gems and purer than gold, and laid them to rest where it was befitting they should lie. And if it be possible for us to assemble again, may God grant us to celebrate the birthday of his martyrdom with gladness, thus to recall the memory of those who fought in the glorious combat, and to teach and strengthen by his example, those who shall come after us."
The Circular Letter of the Church of Smyrna on the Martyrdom of St. Polycarp, 155 A.D.

Once Protestants dropped the belief of the purification spoken of in the Bible that Catholic call "purgatory," it makes sense they quit using the title of "saint."

The bible does indeed speak of purification, but doesn't mention purgatory. It says what cleanses from sins, all sins:

“....the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.” (1Jo 1:7 NKJV)

If all my sins have been cleansed by the blood of Christ, there is no need for purgatory.

 

[Valletta]

The vital thing is to note that it wasn't the handkerchiefs or aprons that caused the healing, for note the first words: "And God did extraordinary miracles."

Exactly. Recall the words of Saint Bernadette, my emphasis:

As a result, the Mayor and the police accused me of curing people, and threatened me with jail. I stated simply, "I have not cured anyone." They then raved on about never going back to the grotto, and they tried to overawe me with their impeccable French and their sophisticated attitude. They seemed incapable of realising I had knelt in the presence of a Lady who could only be of Heaven, and their words flew past my ears.

A Short Life of Bernadette | EWTN

EWTN is a global, Catholic Television, Catholic Radio, and Catholic News Network that provides catholic programming and news coverage from around the world.

www.ewtn.com

The bible does indeed speak of purification, but doesn't mention purgatory. It says what cleanses from sins, all sins:

“....the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.” (1Jo 1:7 NKJV)

If all my sins have been cleansed by the blood of Christ, there is no need for purgatory.

"Purgatory" is a name Catholics use to describe that purification spoken of in the Bible.

Matthew 5:25-26 "Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny."

 

[David Lamb]

Exactly. Recall the words of Saint Bernadette, my emphasis:

As a result, the Mayor and the police accused me of curing people, and threatened me with jail. I stated simply, "I have not cured anyone." They then raved on about never going back to the grotto, and they tried to overawe me with their impeccable French and their sophisticated attitude. They seemed incapable of realising I had knelt in the presence of a Lady who could only be of Heaven, and their words flew past my ears.

A Short Life of Bernadette | EWTN

EWTN is a global, Catholic Television, Catholic Radio, and Catholic News Network that provides catholic programming and news coverage from around the world.

www.ewtn.com

"Purgatory" is a name Catholics use to describe that purification spoken of in the Bible.

Matthew 5:25-26 "Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny."

The purification spoken of in the bible happens when Jesus, by His precious blood, washes away the sins of a person. Writing to the Christians at Colossae, the apostle Paul said:

“And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.” (Col 2:13-14 NKJV)

He has wiped out, He has taken away, not something to happen in some future purgatory.

Regarding whether the "saints" themselves are believed to work miracles, the Catholic Encyclopaedia, in describing the process of canonisation, says: "The preparation of the inquiries (processus) all of which are carried on by the ordinary episcopal authority. They are of three kinds: (a) Informative inquiries regard the reputation for sanctity and miracles of the servants of God, not only in general, but also in particular instances; there may be several such inquiries if the witnesses to be examined belong to different dioceses."

 

[boughtwithaprice]

The vital thing is to note that it wasn't the handkerchiefs or aprons that caused the healing, for note the first words: "And God did extraordinary miracles."

The bible does indeed speak of purification, but doesn't mention purgatory. It says what cleanses from sins, all sins:

“....the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.” (1Jo 1:7 NKJV)

If all my sins have been cleansed by the blood of Christ, there is no need for purgatory.

Then what is the meaning of the verses in Corinthians that every man’s work will be tried by fire to see what sort of work it is, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay and stubble?
The wood, hay and stubble will be burned away or purged. Sounds like purgatory to me.

If what you say is true, why are these verses even in the Bible? If our works are no good, why are they tried at all? Would not it say that at judgement the wood hay and stubble of our former life are burned away and all that is left is the gold, silver and precious stones of Christ?
It does not say that. The Bible says we will be judged by our works and we will give account for every idle word.

You may say this is the judgement and it happens in an instant. Regardless of time, the fact remains that scripture says we will be purged with fire.


It is our faith in Jesus Christ that gives our works merit, for without Him, they are as filthy rags, but with Him, as Paul said, it is no longer I that liveth, but Christ liveth in me. He is Christ in you the hope of glory. We cannot claim to love Christ and then not do anything. We are commanded to love. Love is an act of will. It is not passive rather active. We are able to love because of the blood of Christ that cleanses us from sin
The epistle of James says be doers of the word, not hearers only

We can’t let Satan deceive us into stop working and telling others to do nothing. If we are redeemed by Christ, we are to live and walk in His footsteps, not in fantasy but in reality

 

[David Lamb]

Then what is the meaning of the verses in Corinthians that every man’s work will be tried by fire to see what sort of work it is, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay and stubble?
The wood, hay and stubble will be burned away or purged. Sounds like purgatory to me.

If what you say is true, why are these verses even in the Bible? If our works are no good, why are they tried at all? Would not it say that at judgement the wood hay and stubble of our former life are burned away and all that is left is the gold, silver and precious stones of Christ?
It does not say that. The Bible says we will be judged by our works and we will give account for every idle word.

You may say this is the judgement and it happens in an instant. Regardless of time, the fact remains that scripture says we will be purged with fire.


It is our faith in Jesus Christ that gives our works merit, for without Him, they are as filthy rags, but with Him, as Paul said, it is no longer I that liveth, but Christ liveth in me. He is Christ in you the hope of glory. We cannot claim to love Christ and then not do anything. We are commanded to love. Love is an act of will. It is not passive rather active. We are able to love because of the blood of Christ that cleanses us from sin
The epistle of James says be doers of the word, not hearers only

We can’t let Satan deceive us into stop working and telling others to do nothing. If we are redeemed by Christ, we are to live and walk in His footsteps, not in fantasy but in reality

The verses are these:

“For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation [with] gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” (1Co 3:11-15 NKJV)

Notice that the foundation is Jesus Christ. It is the works that are burned in testing. As Jamieson, Fausset and Brown say in their commentary: "The fire (probably figurative here, as the gold, hay, etc.) is not purgatory (as Rome teaches, that is, purificatory and punitive), but probatory, not restricted to those dying in "venial sin"; the supposed intermediate class between those entering heaven at once, and those dying in mortal sin who go to hell, but universal, testing the godly and ungodly alike (2Co 5:10; compare Mr 9:49). This fire is not till the last day, the supposed fire of purgatory begins at death. The fire of Paul is to try the works, the fire of purgatory the persons, of men. Paul’s fire causes "loss" to the sufferers; Rome’s purgatory, great gain, namely, heaven at last to those purged by it, if only it were true. Thus this passage, quoted by Rome for, is altogether against, purgatory."

 

[Valletta]

Notice that the foundation is Jesus Christ. It is the works that are burned in testing. As Jamieson, Fausset and Brown say in their commentary: "The fire (probably figurative here, as the gold, hay, etc.) is not purgatory (as Rome teaches, that is, purificatory and punitive), but probatory, not restricted to those dying in "venial sin"; the supposed intermediate class between those entering heaven at once, and those dying in mortal sin who go to hell, but universal, testing the godly and ungodly alike (2Co 5:10; compare Mr 9:49). This fire is not till the last day, the supposed fire of purgatory begins at death. The fire of Paul is to try the works, the fire of purgatory the persons, of men. Paul’s fire causes "loss" to the sufferers; Rome’s purgatory, great gain, namely, heaven at last to those purged by it, if only it were true. Thus this passage, quoted by Rome for, is altogether against, purgatory."

"Paul begins by saying that Christian life is built upon a common foundation: Jesus Christ. This foundation endures. If we have stood firm on this foundation and built our life upon it, we know that it cannot be taken away from us even in death. Then Paul continues: “Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:12-15). In this text, it is in any case evident that our salvation can take different forms, that some of what is built may be burned down, that in order to be saved we personally have to pass through “fire” so as to become fully open to receiving God and able to take our place at the table of the eternal marriage-feast.
47. Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ's Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy. It is clear that we cannot calculate the “duration” of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming “moment” of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning—it is the heart's time, it is the time of “passage” to communion with God in the Body of Christ[39]. The judgement of God is hope, both because it is justice and because it is grace. If it were merely grace, making all earthly things cease to matter, God would still owe us an answer to the question about justice—the crucial question that we ask of history and of God. If it were merely justice, in the end it could bring only fear to us all. The incarnation of God in Christ has so closely linked the two together—judgement and grace—that justice is firmly established: we all work out our salvation “with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12). Nevertheless grace allows us all to hope, and to go trustfully to meet the Judge whom we know as our “advocate”, or parakletos (cf. 1 Jn 2:1)."

Spe salvi (November 30, 2007)

Spe salvi, Encyclical of Pope Benedict XVI, Christian faith, christian hope, redemption, salvation

www.vatican.va

 

[boughtwithaprice]

The verses are these:

“For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation [with] gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” (1Co 3:11-15 NKJV)

Notice that the foundation is Jesus Christ. It is the works that are burned in testing. As Jamieson, Fausset and Brown say in their commentary: "The fire (probably figurative here, as the gold, hay, etc.) is not purgatory (as Rome teaches, that is, purificatory and punitive), but probatory, not restricted to those dying in "venial sin"; the supposed intermediate class between those entering heaven at once, and those dying in mortal sin who go to hell, but universal, testing the godly and ungodly alike (2Co 5:10; compare Mr 9:49). This fire is not till the last day, the supposed fire of purgatory begins at death. The fire of Paul is to try the works, the fire of purgatory the persons, of men. Paul’s fire causes "loss" to the sufferers; Rome’s purgatory, great gain, namely, heaven at last to those purged by it, if only it were true. Thus this passage, quoted by Rome for, is altogether against, purgatory."

That is your interpretation that is based on your understanding. In this instance, what you can do is disagree with the Catholic Church. What you cannot do is say that the Catholic Church is unbiblical.

The question remains, what gives scripture authority? Is it your own understanding? “The scripture is written in words all can understand” if that is true, then why the denominations?
In Protestant theory, open reading of scripture should lead to more unity, but what we have are numerous splits or schisms, what is it now? Over 30,000 sects?
What does scripture say?

2 Peter

20 Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

21 For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.


The question then becomes, who are the holy men of God? Those the we agree with? Or those we enjoy listening to? Would that not then lead us back to our own understanding?

What about the sola scripturist’s favorite verses?
2 Timothy

16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, 17- That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work



Hmmm. It says we are supposed to be taught, reproved, corrected and instructed (some translations say training in righteousness)
That then begs the question, who is to teach, reprove, correct and instruct?

Could that also be our own understanding? Don’t think so. God wants obedience rather than sacrifice. Who are the people to obey?

If it is our own understanding, then it is no one but ourselves and our interpretation of God, rather than God Himself.

What does scripture say?

Ephesians 4

. 7 But to every one of us is given grace, according to the measure of the giving of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith: Ascending on high, he led captivity captive; he gave gifts to men. 9 Now that he ascended, what is it, but because he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.

11 And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors, 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ; 14 That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive. 15 But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who is the head, even Christ


The office of Apostle of as given by God, not the desire of men. How do we know we follow the teaching of an apostle? We must look back in history to see what the teaching of the Apostles was. There is a work by Iraneus called Demonstration of the Apostolic teaching. It was written in the second century before the reformation, before the great schism and even before the council of Nicaea. You should read it and see how your understanding lines up with Apostolic teaching. God gives you the free will as the whether you will do that or not, but if you are going to claim understanding of authentic Christian teaching, you owe it to yourself to at least look at it

The holy men of God were the Apostles, not us. We are to be obedient students, not teachers as though we know better. Do we really?


What does scripture say will happen if we do not obey the Apostles?

2 Timothy 4

2 Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine 3 For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: 4 And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. 5 But be thou vigilant, labour in all things, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill thy ministry. Be sober.


How do you know that you are not one with itching ears rather than an obedient servant? The only way is to study, look and compare our selves to the Apostolic teaching. If we do not even look at it, we keep ourselves in darkness to obey ourselves rather than God

What does Peter say to do?

Not everyone that reads and quotes scripture remains with God. Some use scripture for their own ends. How do we know it is not us?

1 The ancients therefore that are among you, I beseech, who am myself also an ancient, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ: as also a partaker of that glory which is to be revealed in time to come: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking care of it, not by constraint, but willingly, according to God: not for filthy lucre's sake, but voluntarily: 3 Neither as lording it over the clergy, but being made a pattern of the flock from the heart. 4 And when the prince of pastors shall appear, you shall receive a never fading crown of glory. 5 In like manner, ye young men, be subject to the ancients. And do you all insinuate humility one to another, for God resisteth the proud, but to the humble he giveth grace


He says to study the teaching of the Church fathers, aka the ancients. If you lean unto yourself or the teachers of your choice, it makes no difference, it’s your free will. Will you study the Apostles or go your own way?

 

[prodromos]

That is not biblical. In the bible, the word "saint" is used of every Christian. It is never used as a title for a special class of Christian - you'll look in vain for mentions of anybody named "Saint Matthew", "Saint Luke," and so on.

A recent discovery in a grave in Frankfurt, Germany, dating between 230 and 270AD was an inscription on silver foil, rolled up in a cross shaped amulet around the wearer's neck.
The inscription, in Latin, read as follows:

(In the name?) of Saint Titus.
Holy, holy, holy!
In the name of Jesus Christ, Son of God!
The Lord of the World
resists with [strength?]
all attacks(?)/setbacks(?).
The god(?) grants well-being
Admission.
This rescue device(?) protects
the person who is
surrenders to the will
of the Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
since before Jesus Christ
all knees bow: the heavenly ones,
the earthly and
the underground, and every tongue
confess (to Jesus Christ).​

Archaeologists Found a Skeleton Wearing an Amulet That May Change the History of Christianity

A 1.37-inch inscription could upend our understanding of the religion’s spread.

www.popularmechanics.com

 

[boughtwithaprice]

A recent discovery in a grave in Frankfurt, Germany, dating between 230 and 270AD was an inscription on silver foil, rolled up in a cross shaped amulet around the wearer's neck.
The inscription, in Latin, read as follows:

​

(In the name?) of Saint Titus.​

Holy, holy, holy!​

In the name of Jesus Christ, Son of God!​

The Lord of the World​

resists with [strength?]​

all attacks(?)/setbacks(?).​

The god(?) grants well-being​

Admission.​

This rescue device(?) protects​

the person who is​

surrenders to the will​

of the Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,​

since before Jesus Christ​

all knees bow: the heavenly ones,​

the earthly and​

the underground, and every tongue​

confess (to Jesus Christ).​

Archaeologists Found a Skeleton Wearing an Amulet That May Change the History of Christianity

A 1.37-inch inscription could upend our understanding of the religion’s spread.

www.popularmechanics.com

Those who study history see the truth of the Faith. It reminds me of a line from the rock opera, Jesus Christ Superstar. I don’t like the overall message of the rock opera for many reasons, but it has some catchy music and to me this line stands out. In the song, Jesus is lamenting Jerusalem, and expressing His desire to gather them as a Hen her chicks

“If you knew all that I knew, my poor Jerusalem, you’d see the truth, but you’d close your eyes, but you’d close your eyes. While you live, your troubles are many, my poor Jerusalem. To conquer death, you only have to die, you only have to die.”

The rock opera is not 100% scripturally accurate, but those lines give much scriptural truth to contemplate.


There are two kinds of people that reject Apostolic teaching. Heretics who don’t know any better but would gladly follow the Apostles should their knowledge be corrected, and free thinkers who reject any kind of authority over themselves, even though Our Lord said many times that He desires obedience rather than sacrifice.
That was the Old Covenant when the blood of lambs was a reality. Perhaps the New Covenant reading should say, I desire obedience rather than liturgy ?

Peace be with you brother, and keep studying history, as scripture says, study to show yourself approved

 

[David Lamb]

A recent discovery in a grave in Frankfurt, Germany, dating between 230 and 270AD was an inscription on silver foil, rolled up in a cross shaped amulet around the wearer's neck.
The inscription, in Latin, read as follows:

​

(In the name?) of Saint Titus.​

Holy, holy, holy!​

In the name of Jesus Christ, Son of God!​

The Lord of the World​

resists with [strength?]​

all attacks(?)/setbacks(?).​

The god(?) grants well-being​

Admission.​

This rescue device(?) protects​

the person who is​

surrenders to the will​

of the Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,​

since before Jesus Christ​

all knees bow: the heavenly ones,​

the earthly and​

the underground, and every tongue​

confess (to Jesus Christ).​

Archaeologists Found a Skeleton Wearing an Amulet That May Change the History of Christianity

A 1.37-inch inscription could upend our understanding of the religion’s spread.

www.popularmechanics.com

I am not disputing what you wrote. However, my post to which you were replying was the way the word "saint" is used in the bible.

 

[Quasiblogo]

One comment posted in this thread was something like Mary being a sinner is a relatively new idea. Practice sin, of course not. But being sinless? The Scripture passages in Leviticus and Luke make it plain that she was dependent on God to walk by faith, obeying the Jewish customs (mandated by the Lord) and in the process was filled with grace.

Concerning Luke 2:21-24:

On the eighth day after Messiah Jesus was born, Joseph and Mary had Jesus circumcised. This could have been done by a rabbi at Bethlehem or in Jerusalem:

On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise him, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he had been conceived (Luke 2:21).

This was in accordance with the Scripture’s requirement in Leviticus 12:1-2:

1 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Say to the Israelites: 'A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period.
3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised.

The next steps were for Joseph and Mary to go to Jerusalem so that Mary could undergo the post-birthing rite of burnt and sin offerings—and then present the infant Jesus for consecration. As Leviticus 12: 4,6-8 states:

4 Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding…
6 "When the days of her purification for a son or daughter are over, she is to bring to the priest at the entrance
to the Tent of Meeting a year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a dove for a sin offering.
7 He shall offer them before the Lord to make atonement for her, and then she will be ceremonially clean from her flow of blood. " 'These are the regulations for the woman who gives birth to a boy or a girl. 8 If she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean.' "

We see from the above that Joseph was to assist Mary in either having a lamb offered, or lacking the money for a
lamb, two doves or young pigeons. So, which creatures were offered up for Mary? We are given the answer in Luke 2:22-24:

22 When the time of their purification according to the Law of Moses had been completed, Joseph and Mary took him
to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord 23 (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, "Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord"), 24 and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: "a pair of doves or two young pigeons."

Here, verse 24 isolates the description of the sacrifice to two types of birds: doves and pigeons.

Tying these passages from Leviticus and Luke together, there is something important to consider: there was a “sin offering” for Mary. She was not sinless, although, bless God, she lived a holy life.

________
All Scripture text quoted is taken from the HOLY BIBLE, NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION ®. Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society. Used by permission of Zondervan. All rights reserved. Bold and italicized text are mine.

 

[Valletta]

One comment posted in this thread was something like Mary being a sinner is a relatively new idea. Practice sin, of course not. But being sinless? The Scripture passages in Leviticus and Luke make it plain that she was dependent on God to walk by faith, obeying the Jewish customs (mandated by the Lord) and in the process was filled with grace.

Concerning Luke 2:21-24:

On the eighth day after Messiah Jesus was born, Joseph and Mary had Jesus circumcised. This could have been done by a rabbi at Bethlehem or in Jerusalem:

On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise him, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he had been conceived (Luke 2:21).

This was in accordance with the Scripture’s requirement in Leviticus 12:1-2:

1 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Say to the Israelites: 'A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period.
3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised.

The next steps were for Joseph and Mary to go to Jerusalem so that Mary could undergo the post-birthing rite of burnt and sin offerings—and then present the infant Jesus for consecration. As Leviticus 12: 4,6-8 states:

4 Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding…
6 "When the days of her purification for a son or daughter are over, she is to bring to the priest at the entrance
to the Tent of Meeting a year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a dove for a sin offering.
7 He shall offer them before the Lord to make atonement for her, and then she will be ceremonially clean from her flow of blood. " 'These are the regulations for the woman who gives birth to a boy or a girl. 8 If she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean.' "

We see from the above that Joseph was to assist Mary in either having a lamb offered, or lacking the money for a
lamb, two doves or young pigeons. So, which creatures were offered up for Mary? We are given the answer in Luke 2:22-24:

22 When the time of their purification according to the Law of Moses had been completed, Joseph and Mary took him
to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord 23 (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, "Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord"), 24 and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: "a pair of doves or two young pigeons."

Here, verse 24 isolates the description of the sacrifice to two types of birds: doves and pigeons.

Tying these passages from Leviticus and Luke together, there is something important to consider: there was a “sin offering” for Mary. She was not sinless, although, bless God, she lived a holy life.

________
All Scripture text quoted is taken from the HOLY BIBLE, NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION ®. Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society. Used by permission of Zondervan. All rights reserved. Bold and italicized text are mine.

Jesus too submitted Himself to Baptism. Jesus did not need it. Mary was without sin.

 

[Quasiblogo]

Jesus too submitted Himself to Baptism. Jesus did not need it. Mary was without sin.

Good point, 1st sentence. 2nd: that was to “Fulfill all righteousness”, which is only in Messiah Jesus. He is our righteousness, as Christians. Mary, et al, that is.