A Question for Catholics

[RileyG]

Very simply she needed to be saved from the inevitability that she would become a sinner.

Amen!

 

[RileyG]

Original or ancestral sin, unless one subscribes to Pelagianism, in which case the idea of original sin is rejecfed.

Also, keep in mind, how the East and West view ancestral or original sin is very much different. The East does not subscribe to St. Augustine's view on original sin, if I understand correctly!

Blessings!

 

[The Liturgist]

Also, keep in mind, how the East and West view ancestral or original sin is very much different. The East does not subscribe to St. Augustine's view on original sin, if I understand correctly!

Blessings!

No, we subscribe to St. John Cassian’s view, which Rome also subscribed to before the ascendance of scholastic theology.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

One comment posted in this thread was something like Mary being a sinner is a relatively new idea. Practice sin, of course not. But being sinless? The Scripture passages in Leviticus and Luke make it plain that she was dependent on God to walk by faith, obeying the Jewish customs (mandated by the Lord) and in the process was filled with grace.

Concerning Luke 2:21-24:

On the eighth day after Messiah Jesus was born, Joseph and Mary had Jesus circumcised. This could have been done by a rabbi at Bethlehem or in Jerusalem:

On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise him, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he had been conceived (Luke 2:21).

This was in accordance with the Scripture’s requirement in Leviticus 12:1-2:

1 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Say to the Israelites: 'A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period.
3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised.

The next steps were for Joseph and Mary to go to Jerusalem so that Mary could undergo the post-birthing rite of burnt and sin offerings—and then present the infant Jesus for consecration. As Leviticus 12: 4,6-8 states:

4 Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding…
6 "When the days of her purification for a son or daughter are over, she is to bring to the priest at the entrance
to the Tent of Meeting a year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a dove for a sin offering.
7 He shall offer them before the Lord to make atonement for her, and then she will be ceremonially clean from her flow of blood. " 'These are the regulations for the woman who gives birth to a boy or a girl. 8 If she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean.' "

We see from the above that Joseph was to assist Mary in either having a lamb offered, or lacking the money for a
lamb, two doves or young pigeons. So, which creatures were offered up for Mary? We are given the answer in Luke 2:22-24:

22 When the time of their purification according to the Law of Moses had been completed, Joseph and Mary took him
to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord 23 (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, "Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord"), 24 and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: "a pair of doves or two young pigeons."

Here, verse 24 isolates the description of the sacrifice to two types of birds: doves and pigeons.

Tying these passages from Leviticus and Luke together, there is something important to consider: there was a “sin offering” for Mary. She was not sinless, although, bless God, she lived a holy life.

________
All Scripture text quoted is taken from the HOLY BIBLE, NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION ®. Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society. Used by permission of Zondervan. All rights reserved. Bold and italicized text are mine.

Jesus also had a pair of turtle doves or two young pigeons offered for Him, as it was the law for every male that opens the womb.

We cannot assume a person is in sin just because an offering was made. It was just a custom of the law. Unless you are saying Jesus was in sin, but that is absurd

Mary was conceived in the mind of God from the foundation of the world. She was formed by His hands at His command in His time. God made her the enemy of Satan not his slave.

There is nothing in Leviticus which requires the presence of sin to make an offering. The offering is an act of humility to fulfill all righteousness, just as when Jesus was baptized

 

[RileyG]

Jesus also had a pair of turtle doves or two young pigeons offered for Him, as it was the law for every male that opens the womb.

We cannot assume a person is in sin just because an offering was made. It was just a custom of the law. Unless you are saying Jesus was in sin, but that is absurd

Mary was conceived in the mind of God from the foundation of the world. She was formed by His hands at His command in His time. God made her the enemy of Satan not his slave.

There is nothing in Leviticus which requires the presence of sin to make an offering. The offering is an act of humility to fulfill all righteousness, just as when Jesus was baptized

Well said!

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Yet she in her praise said:

“And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.” (Lu 1:47 NKJV)

If she was completely sinless, she didn't need a Saviour.

Calling God her savior is an act of humility as a created being. Failing to do so would be an act of pride assuming existence unto her self instead of the Creator. That would be sin
This verse you quoted actually argues for Mary’s sinless virtue rather than making her guilty of sin

 

[RileyG]

Calling God her savior is an act of humility as a created being. Failing to do so would be an act of pride assuming existence unto her self instead of the Creator. That would be sin
This verse you quoted actually argues for Mary’s sinless virtue rather than making her guilty of sin

As a human being, God indeed saved her. He saved her from ever committing a single personal sin!

 

[David Lamb]

Calling God her savior is an act of humility as a created being. Failing to do so would be an act of pride assuming existence unto her self instead of the Creator. That would be sin
This verse you quoted actually argues for Mary’s sinless virtue rather than making her guilty of sin

So I ask again, what did God her Saviour save her from if she was sinless?

 

[prodromos]

So I ask again, what did God her Saviour save her from if she was sinless?

Death.

 

[David Lamb]

Death.

But according to the bible, death is a direct consequence of sin, and you say she didn't have any sin:

“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Ro 6:23 NKJV)

 

[boughtwithaprice]

So I ask again, what did God her Saviour save her from if she was sinless?

He gave her existence. She did not do anything to earn it, and He gave her the fullness of His grace. The Greek word is Kecharitomene, and that only applies to Mary. In English other verses mention other saints as full of grace and truth, but the text does not read Kecharitomene.

God saved her from having to live a life of sin enslaved to her passions and lorded over by the devil as we are. God made her the enemy of Satan, not his slave. Genesis 3:15

Mary does not exist unto herself. Sinlessness does not come to her by nature, but by the grace of God, just as we will be sinless in heaven by the grace of God, Mary was from the beginning

If that is not enough to cause her to sing with joy about Almighty God as her savior, I don’t know what is.

God does not owe Mary salvation; He does not owe us salvation. He gives it freely by His grace because of His Love.

Why are some so fond of saying salvation cannot be earned, but insist that Mary would have earned it if she is sinless?


Does God require sin in order to be with Him for eternity? That would be absurd. He who is without sin, requires sin?!??

No it is through His mercy and love that we are cleansed from sin, and it is through His mercy and love that He created Mary without sin

Is the hypostatic union to be read God joined sin?
Um, no. There is no sin in Him

Mary was conceived in the mind of God, created at His word by His hands to His glory
We do not make her an idol. She is the work of God, not human hands

 

[David Lamb]

He gave her existence.

But existence requires a Creator, not a Saviour.

She did not do anything to earn it, and He gave her the fullness of His grace. The Greek word is Kecharitomene, and that only applies to Mary. In English other verses mention other saints as full of grace and truth, but the text does not read Kecharitomene.

God saved her from having to live a life of sin enslaved to her passions and lorded over by the devil as we are. God made her the enemy of Satan, not his slave. Genesis 3:15

Mary does not exist unto herself. Sinlessness does not come to her by nature, but by the grace of God, just as we will be sinless in heaven by the grace of God, Mary was from the beginning

If that is not enough to cause her to sing with joy about Almighty God as her savior, I don’t know what is.

God does not owe Mary salvation; He does not owe us salvation. He gives it freely by His grace because of His Love.

Why are some so fond of saying salvation cannot be earned, but insist that Mary would have earned it if she is sinless?

That is the point that those who, like me, do not believe that Mary was sinless, make, that Salvation cannot be earned by human beings because all are sinners. If they could be sinless every moment of their lives, they would not need a Saviour. But they cannot, that is why the bible makes God's grace essential for salvation. Grace is undeserved favour.

Does God require sin in order to be with Him for eternity? That would be absurd. He who is without sin, requires sin?!??

No, He requires perfection. That is why the apostle Paul wrote that his own righteousness was not enough to make him right with God:

“Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,” (Php 3:8-10 NKJV)

No it is through His mercy and love that we are cleansed from sin, and it is through His mercy and love that He created Mary without sin

Where in the bible are we told that Mary was created without sin? And if you start saying that she had to be sinless to give birth to a sinless Saviour, then logically, her parents would have had to be sinless to give birth to her, and their parents would have had to be sinless to give birth to them, and so on.

Is the hypostatic union to be read God joined sin?
Um, no. There is no sin in Him

No there isn't. However, to save us, Jesus took our sin upon Himself. We even read:

“For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” (2Co 5:21 NKJV)

Mary was conceived in the mind of God, created at His word by His hands to His glory
We do not make her an idol. She is the work of God, not human hands

Every human being is the work of God. Although you say you don't make her an idol, there are many statues made of her, and people bow down to the statues, kiss them, and more.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Marian theology is very deeply engrained within Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. I am convinced that no amount of biblical reasoning will ever sway its adherents. The four Marian Dogmas in Roman Catholicism must be believed in order to hope for salvation. To deny them automatically precludes Catholics from that hope and puts them in direct risk of excommunication.

 

[prodromos]

But according to the bible, death is a direct consequence of sin, and you say she didn't have any sin:

No, I don't say that. I'm not Catholic.
We say she is blameless.

“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Ro 6:23 NKJV)

You need to read a lot more of Paul's letter to the Romans.

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. If, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.​

Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.​

Romans 5:15-19​

 

[boughtwithaprice]

But existence requires a Creator, not a Saviour.

That is the point that those who, like me, do not believe that Mary was sinless, make, that Salvation cannot be earned by human beings because all are sinners. If they could be sinless every moment of their lives, they would not need a Saviour. But they cannot, that is why the bible makes God's grace essential for salvation. Grace is undeserved favour.

No, He requires perfection. That is why the apostle Paul wrote that his own righteousness was not enough to make him right with God:

“Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,” (Php 3:8-10 NKJV)

Where in the bible are we told that Mary was created without sin? And if you start saying that she had to be sinless to give birth to a sinless Saviour, then logically, her parents would have had to be sinless to give birth to her, and their parents would have had to be sinless to give birth to them, and so on.

No there isn't. However, to save us, Jesus took our sin upon Himself. We even read:

“For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” (2Co 5:21 NKJV)

Every human being is the work of God. Although you say you don't make her an idol, there are many statues made of her, and people bow down to the statues, kiss them, and more.

You do know the difference between hyperdulia and latria, right?

Since Mary is a work of God, as promised to bring forth the Savior, we honor God by honoring her. In would be similar to try and tell Leonardo DaVinci that he is a great painter who brought joy to the world through his works of art, but that Mona Lisa is really no big deal, I mean she doesn’t even look good and is she really smiling?
Would you say that to him?

If you say sinlessness earns salvation, then that diminishes the love of God. God owes no one salvation, it is a gift, not a wage
We do not bargain with God for eternal life or dupe Him by a legal maneuver. We are saved because God loves us, and we love Him.

The Calvinist error is in limited atonement. Christ died for all men everywhere, but salvation is only possible for those that love God. Yes, Charity, is divine love is a theological virtue, in that it only comes form God, but He freely gives it to those that ask for it.
There is an elect and God knows who they are, but we do not. That is why we are admonished in scripture to make our calling and election sure.
Knowing that there is an elect does not make us one of them. Satan knows there is an elect, but he certainly knows that he is not one of them.
To see God, we must be sinless, to be sinless, we must be purged of sin, because we are sinners. To be purged of sin, we have to ask to be purged. God does not force Himself on us, as His love is freely given. Love that is not free is not love but compulsion. That counters irresistible grace, as compelled companions are no companions at all. Our Lord tells the Pharisees do not say to yourself we have Abraham as our father, God could make from these stones children of Abraham.
He was telling them that they were no better than rocks. If that is what I sought, why put up with you and your stony heart. I could make the stones themselves praise me. Indifferent existence is useless. God wants those that love Him, freely. Whosoever will come and drink of the water or life freely. All we have to do is ask
Just because God knows who will ask, does not mean that His atonement is limited, nor His grace irresistible. I know you probably do not comprehend it, and I once believed TULIP, but when we think about it, love is not love if it is not free.
Mary just possessed this love by God’s grace at her conception. She had a choice and she freely consented. Let it be done to me according to your word.
She did not earn salvation, it was freely given to her because she chose to love.
She was sinless because God tells us she is. Genesis 3:15 tells us she is the enemy of Satan
The Bible also tells us that whoever sins is the slave to sin. If Mary sinned, she could not be the enemy of Satan, she would have been his slave.

We are slaves to sin and can only be set free by Christ. Satan does not just tempt us to do evil. He also uses flattery to make us think we are better than we are and we do not need to do anything. The happened to the Church is Laodicea. They thought they were fine, we are rich and have need of nothing. If we ever feel that way, it should cause us great fear, as God says He will vomit us from His mouth, and it is a false feeling of being rich in spirit
God blesses the poor in spirit but the rich He turns away empty
Love is as a burning fire that always wants more. We cannot comprehend the fullness of God so we should always want more. We should always seek to please God and know Him more fully
If we don’t, we would be like a lazy wife that had no care for her husband. She takes no care for him, sits on the couch, doesn’t shower, gets fat and stinks. Yeah the marriage certificate is good and a righteous man knows marriage is for life, but do you think he would ever want to have intercourse with that? There is no love in it.
She would be put outside to wail and gnash her teeth
If we don’t think that we love God enough then ask Him for it. He gives freely to those that ask

Mary did not earn salvation, she was given the grace to be born in humility to always be asking for more. She is our model, and we would do well to contemplate and study her rather than disparage her. Who is she that breaks forth like the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array?

 

[bbbbbbb]

If love is as a burning fire that always wants more and Purgatory is as a burning fire that always wants more then Purgatory is the perfect expression of love.

 

[David Lamb]

No, I don't say that. I'm not Catholic.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

We say she is blameless.

You need to read a lot more of Paul's letter to the Romans.

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. If, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.​

Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.​

Romans 5:15-19​

Yes, I believe that. I have read Romans, and rejoice in its truths.

 

[David Lamb]

You do know the difference between hyperdulia and latria, right?

I have heard of it, although we don't read of such things in God's word.

Since Mary is a work of God, as promised to bring forth the Savior, we honor God by honoring her. In would be similar to try and tell Leonardo DaVinci that he is a great painter who brought joy to the world through his works of art, but that Mona Lisa is really no big deal, I mean she doesn’t even look good and is she really smiling?
Would you say that to him?

If you say sinlessness earns salvation, then that diminishes the love of God. God owes no one salvation, it is a gift, not a wage

Nobody apart from our Saviour has even been sinless:

“for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” (Ro 3:23 NKJV)

So we can't earn salvation by being sinless. That is why we need God's grace, and a sinless Saviour.

We do not bargain with God for eternal life or dupe Him by a legal maneuver. We are saved because God loves us, and we love Him.

I agree with that.

The Calvinist error is in limited atonement. Christ died for all men everywhere, but salvation is only possible for those that love God.

So Jesus Christ's death didn't actually save anybody? It only made salvation possible, provided they believe? Yet we read in the bible:

“"And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."” (Mt 1:21 NKJV)

Not "for He will make salvation possible." No, "He will save...."

Yes, Charity, is divine love is a theological virtue, in that it only comes form God, but He freely gives it to those that ask for it.
There is an elect and God knows who they are, but we do not. That is why we are admonished in scripture to make our calling and election sure.

I agree with that.

Knowing that there is an elect does not make us one of them. Satan knows there is an elect, but he certainly knows that he is not one of them.
To see God, we must be sinless, to be sinless, we must be purged of sin, because we are sinners. To be purged of sin, we have to ask to be purged. God does not force Himself on us, as His love is freely given. Love that is not free is not love but compulsion. That counters irresistible grace, as compelled companions are no companions at all. Our Lord tells the Pharisees do not say to yourself we have Abraham as our father, God could make from these stones children of Abraham.

Not quite. In the bible, we are taught that we need a righteousness which is better than any righteousness we might have. The apostle Paul wrote:

“Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;” (Php 3:8-9 NKJV)

He was telling them that they were no better than rocks. If that is what I sought, why put up with you and your stony heart. I could make the stones themselves praise me. Indifferent existence is useless. God wants those that love Him, freely. Whosoever will come and drink of the water or life freely. All we have to do is ask
Just because God knows who will ask, does not mean that His atonement is limited, nor His grace irresistible. I know you probably do not comprehend it, and I once believed TULIP, but when we think about it, love is not love if it is not free.

Although I believe in the doctrines represented by it, I don't like the acronym "TULIP," mainly because "limited" gives the impression of fewness. I prefer the term "Particular Redemption," but of course "TUPIP" is not a word, so not much good as an acronym.

Mary just possessed this love by God’s grace at her conception.

What do you base that on? The bible doesn't teach it.

She had a choice and she freely consented. Let it be done to me according to your word.
She did not earn salvation, it was freely given to her because she chose to love.
She was sinless because God tells us she is. Genesis 3:15 tells us she is the enemy of Satan
The Bible also tells us that whoever sins is the slave to sin. If Mary sinned, she could not be the enemy of Satan, she would have been his slave.

Yes, Satan is the enemy of all God's saved people. She wouldn't be the slave of Satan if she was saved, by her glorious Saviour. In that, she is like every Christian. They were slaves of Satan, but by God's grace they are pleased to be slaves of God.

We are slaves to sin and can only be set free by Christ. Satan does not just tempt us to do evil. He also uses flattery to make us think we are better than we are and we do not need to do anything. The happened to the Church is Laodicea. They thought they were fine, we are rich and have need of nothing. If we ever feel that way, it should cause us great fear, as God says He will vomit us from His mouth, and it is a false feeling of being rich in spirit
God blesses the poor in spirit but the rich He turns away empty
Love is as a burning fire that always wants more. We cannot comprehend the fullness of God so we should always want more. We should always seek to please God and know Him more fully
If we don’t, we would be like a lazy wife that had no care for her husband. She takes no care for him, sits on the couch, doesn’t shower, gets fat and stinks. Yeah the marriage certificate is good and a righteous man knows marriage is for life, but do you think he would ever want to have intercourse with that? There is no love in it.
She would be put outside to wail and gnash her teeth
If we don’t think that we love God enough then ask Him for it. He gives freely to those that ask

Mary did not earn salvation, she was given the grace to be born in humility to always be asking for more. She is our model, and we would do well to contemplate and study her rather than disparage her. Who is she that breaks forth like the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array?

No that is not what the bible teaches. The only sinless person mentioned there is the Lord Jesus Christ:

“For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.” (Heb 4:15 NKJV)

There are no words remotely similar in the bible about Mary being without sin.

 

[RileyG]

But existence requires a Creator, not a Saviour.

That is the point that those who, like me, do not believe that Mary was sinless, make, that Salvation cannot be earned by human beings because all are sinners. If they could be sinless every moment of their lives, they would not need a Saviour. But they cannot, that is why the bible makes God's grace essential for salvation. Grace is undeserved favour.

No, He requires perfection. That is why the apostle Paul wrote that his own righteousness was not enough to make him right with God:

“Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,” (Php 3:8-10 NKJV)

Where in the bible are we told that Mary was created without sin? And if you start saying that she had to be sinless to give birth to a sinless Saviour, then logically, her parents would have had to be sinless to give birth to her, and their parents would have had to be sinless to give birth to them, and so on.

No there isn't. However, to save us, Jesus took our sin upon Himself. We even read:

“For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” (2Co 5:21 NKJV)

Every human being is the work of God. Although you say you don't make her an idol, there are many statues made of her, and people bow down to the statues, kiss them, and more.

God saved her BEFORE she ever committed any sin. God kept her pure and without blemish. As a regular human being, she indeed needed a savior.

 

[RileyG]

If love is as a burning fire that always wants more and Purgatory is as a burning fire that always wants more then Purgatory is the perfect expression of love.

You accept purgatory?