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The Liturgist

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If Christ is our Mediator and Intercessor, as the bible says He is, why do we need Mary to pray for us to Him? We have no example or teaching anywhere in the New Testament of Christians either praying or being taught to pray, to Mary.

Most of us ask other Christians to pray for us. I ask for the prayers of Our Glorious Lady Theotokos, the Blessed Virgin Mary (whose perpetual blessedness is confirmed in Luke ch. 1 in the second of the Evangelical Canticles, the Magnificat) and other saints who are alive in Christ for the same reason I ask for the prayers of my friends and relatives in the Christian church, such as @prodromos .
 
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prodromos

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If Christ is our Mediator and Intercessor, as the bible says He is, why do we need Mary to pray for us to Him? We have no example or teaching anywhere in the New Testament of Christians either praying or being taught to pray, to Mary.
Why ask anyone to pray for us? Indeed why pray for anybody else? Because we are one body. Its never been just me and Jesus, it is Jesus and His bride, the Church. If we as Christians are not actively involved in loving one another then we can hardly be considered members of His body.

How do we actively love one another? By praying for each other's needs and giving others the opportunity to do the same by seeking their prayers.

It obviously pleases God when we do because a great many miracles have resulted from seeking the prayers especially of those who are demonstrably friends of God, who we call Saints. As the Scriptures state, "the prayers of a righteous man are powerful and effective."
 
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David Lamb

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Most of us ask other Christians to pray for us. I ask for the prayers of Our Glorious Lady Theotokos, the Blessed Virgin Mary (whose perpetual blessedness is confirmed in Luke ch. 1 in the second of the Evangelical Canticles, the Magnificat) and other saints who are alive in Christ for the same reason I ask for the prayers of my friends and relatives in the Christian church, such as @prodromos .
Yes, my wife and I ask our fellow Christians to pray for us (I especially remember when my wife had breast cancer, Christians both here in the UK and abroad prayed for us). However, nowhere do we read in the New Testament of Christians praying to, or being taught to pray to, other believers who have gone to heaven. In the Magnificat, Mary does say that all generations will call her blessed, and before that, Gabriel had told her that she was blessed among women (not "above other women).
 
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prodromos

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However, nowhere do we read in the New Testament of Christians praying to, or being taught to pray to, other believers who have gone to heaven.
They are members of the same body, are they not?
 
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David Lamb

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They are members of the same body, are they not?
Yes, but in different "stages" (not the best word I am sure, but I hope you know what I mean). If Christians are meant to ask Christians in heaven to pray for them, it seems to me extremely surprising that we have no mention of such a thing in the whole of the New Testament. We do have the wonderful truth that the Saviour Himself is in heaven interceding for His people:

“Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.” (Heb 7:25 NKJV)

We also have examples of Christians requesting other Christians here on earth to pray for them, for instance:

“praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints — and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.” (Eph 6:18-20 NKJV)

But I cannot think of a single reference to requesting Christians in heaven to pray for Christians on earth.
 
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Valletta

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Yes, my wife and I ask our fellow Christians to pray for us (I especially remember when my wife had breast cancer, Christians both here in the UK and abroad prayed for us). However, nowhere do we read in the New Testament of Christians praying to, or being taught to pray to, other believers who have gone to heaven. In the Magnificat, Mary does say that all generations will call her blessed, and before that, Gabriel had told her that she was blessed among women (not "above other women).
Revelation does mention the prayers of the saints, and Catholics and others realize those in Heaven are alive, not dead. No where in the Bible are those who are in Heaven excluded. We are to ask each other to pray for one another, and the prayers of those who are purified from sin (those in Heaven) have great power. No where in the Bible does it state that those in Heaven should be excluded from praying for us. As to Mary, she was greeted by the Angel Gabriel using a word as a title, a word used no where else in the Bible, showing she had in the past been embued with a full and everlasting grace.
 
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David Lamb

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Revelation does mention the prayers of the saints, and Catholics and others realize those in Heaven are alive, not dead. No where in the Bible are those who are in Heaven excluded. We are to ask each other to pray for one another, and the prayers of those who are purified from sin (those in Heaven) have great power. No where in the Bible does it state that those in Heaven should be excluded from praying for us. As to Mary, she was greeted by the Angel Gabriel using a word as a title, a word used no where else in the Bible, showing she had in the past been embued with a full and everlasting grace.
Prayers of the saints in Revelation surely means the prayers of Christians still on earth. "Saints" in the bible is not a title reserved from some special Christians; it refers to all Christian believers. I repeat that it is inconceivable to me that if Christians on earth were intended to ask Christians already in heaven to pray for them, that there should be not a single example in the New Testament of such a thing happening, or being taught.
 
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The Liturgist

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"Saints" in the bible is not a title reserved from some special Christians; it refers to all Christian believers.

We can only know with certainty if someone was truly a Christian after they have reposed, since until they repose, they might always apostasize, or demonstrate a lack of a living faith, which St. Paul and St. James warned are possible.

The conflation of asking those who have been glorified in Christ to pray for us to Christ, in whose immediate presence they are known to be, on account of innumerable confirmed miracles that concerns their relics, with liturgical worship and divine prayer, is a serious error made by some Protestants, which is fundamentally iconoclastic in character, and which is done in defiance of the known customs and practices of the early church, and which requires coercing the scriptural text into meaning what you say it means (for example, in Revelation).

However, even if your interpretation of Revelation were correct, and there was no mention of prayer to the saints in the New Testament, using that fact to argue against it would be logically fallacious, as an argument from silence. Indeed, the entire idea of the Regulative Principle of Worship favored by some Calvinists is an argument from silence.

It is particularly problematic when we ignore the theology of those who were responsible for the New Testament scriptural canon and the Nicene Creed, among whom we find active veneration of the saints, intercessory prayer, and the use of relics, including the identification of the true cross in Jerusalem by St. Helena the mother of Emperor Constantine, the liberator of Christians from the Diocletian persecution, who has been wrongfully accused by Landmark Baptists and Adventists of imposing Roman Catholicism on the world (which is untrue on every level, since the early Roman church was extremely conservative, barely participated at the Council of Nicaea, which was essentially a debate in what would become the Greek Orthodox Church, and supported St. Athanasius and Pope St. Alexander of Alexandria in their desire to anathematize Arius and uphold the doctrine of the Trinity, but due to the great distance between Rome and Nicaea, sent only two legates, compared to the 318 Greek, Syrian and Egyptian bishops who were in attendance at Nicaea, who made all the actual decisions, with St. Constantine merely presiding. And their beliefs also ignore, for example, how Emperor Constantine’s son Constantius was corrupted in faith by the evil Arian bishop Eusebius of Nicomedia, and was converted to Arianism, and he and all of his succesors except for “Julian the Apostate” (who was a Pagan of the neo-Platonist persuasion) were Arians, who actively persecuted Christian bishops who defended the Trinity, particularly St. Athanasius, who succeeded St. Alexander as Pope of Alexandria, and was ironically only allowed to return to Alexandria during the reign of Julian the Apostate.

Additionally, the bishop of Rome was not styled Pope until the sixth century, and a careful study of the history of the early church, setting aside certain accounts favored by Roman Catholics in polemical debates with Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, Assyrian and Reformed theologians will reveal that Papal Supremacy in its present form did not appear until almost the eve of the schism in 1054 and was in many respects the innovation that led directly to the schism, when the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinoplerefused an uncanonical order from the Roman bishop. The Popes of Alexandria, like the other primates of the Orthodox Church, and more recently of the Anglican Communion and the Old Catholic churches, were the first among equals, but did not even have the authority to celebrate the divine liturgy outside of their diocese (and neither did the bishop of Rome - these restrictions were included in the Apostolic Canons and in the canons of the Ecumenical Councils).

The only distinguishing feature of the Roman Catholic Church which existed before the schism and remains until the present is clerical celibacy, which has existed in Rome for as long as anyone can remember, but which was never practiced in the Greek, Syrian, Egyptian, Armenian, Ethiopian, Georgian, Cypriot, Indian or Assyrian churches that made up the rest of Christendom at the time, and there is some reason to believe that it was not practiced everywhere in the West, but was rather specific to Rome and certain other Latin speaking dioceses closely connected to Rome, such as those of North Africa and Italy, but perhaps not in France or those areas where Gallican Rite liturgies were in use, as these liturgies bore significant influence from Eastern Orthodoxy (and only one remains in widespread use, the Ambrosian Rite in greater Milan, and it has been heavily Romanized, although conversely the Roman mass was also somewhat Gallicanized, in that the Old Roman Rite was extremely conservative, with a lack of antiphonal hymnody and a tendency to sing everything in monotone, which indeed remained the norm for the Low Mass until at least the ninth century, whereas antiphonal singing in the Greek tradition was introduced by St. Ambrose of Milan when he and many of his flock occupied a basillica that for some reason, the Christian emperor Theodosius wanted to give to the Arians to placate them, but this basillica had previously been given to the Church in Milan, and St. Ambrose and his followers would have rather perished than allow one of their major churches to be taken over by heretics, however, St. Ambrose introduced Greek-style antiphonal singing, in his words “Lest the people should perish in soulless monotony” and is also credited as the author of many of the oldest hymns in the Western Church.

The full eight-mode system of Gregorian chant was imported from the Byzantine church by St. Gregory the Great when he became Bishop of Rome (and was styled Pope, unlike his fourth century counterparts) for he had previously served as a legate to the Church in Constantinople, and had learned the Byzantine liturgy, and indeed made a great contribution to it and to the Roman liturgy by composing a new Presanctified liturgy which mostly displaced the older form of that liturgy and remains in use to the present in the Orthodox church, although in the Roman church, it was rewritten by Pope Pius XII in 1955 (I have heard that the Novus Ordo Missae reverted it to the old form, but I cannot confirm this, but there are other changes Pope Pius XII made to the liturgical services on Good Friday, Holy Saturday and Easter Sunday which remain).
 
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The Liturgist

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not "above other women”

Words which I did not include in my post.

That said, we are unaware of any other women which spent as much time with Christ our True God - literally decades in the case of the Blessed Virgin Mary, whereas at most a few years in the case of Saints Mary and Martha of Bethany or St. Mary Magdalene (who is sometimes confused with St. Mary of Bethany, but the two are distinct followers of our Lord). This gives us an obvious answer as to the extent that Our Glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary was uniquely blessed.
 
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RileyG

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Most of us ask other Christians to pray for us. I ask for the prayers of Our Glorious Lady Theotokos, the Blessed Virgin Mary (whose perpetual blessedness is confirmed in Luke ch. 1 in the second of the Evangelical Canticles, the Magnificat) and other saints who are alive in Christ for the same reason I ask for the prayers of my friends and relatives in the Christian church, such as @prodromos .
I ask all Catholic and even some Orthodox Saints to pray for me on a daily basis.

I can use all the prayers I can get.

Of course, I love our Lady, the most, and treasure her prayers the most.
 
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RileyG

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Yes, my wife and I ask our fellow Christians to pray for us (I especially remember when my wife had breast cancer, Christians both here in the UK and abroad prayed for us). However, nowhere do we read in the New Testament of Christians praying to, or being taught to pray to, other believers who have gone to heaven. In the Magnificat, Mary does say that all generations will call her blessed, and before that, Gabriel had told her that she was blessed among women (not "above other women).
Are those in heaven still alive? Is God a God of the living and not the dead?

(I am praying for your wife and hope she is doing well, sir.

May God bless you both abundantly).
 
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RileyG

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Revelation does mention the prayers of the saints, and Catholics and others realize those in Heaven are alive, not dead. No where in the Bible are those who are in Heaven excluded. We are to ask each other to pray for one another, and the prayers of those who are purified from sin (those in Heaven) have great power. No where in the Bible does it state that those in Heaven should be excluded from praying for us. As to Mary, she was greeted by the Angel Gabriel using a word as a title, a word used no where else in the Bible, showing she had in the past been embued with a full and everlasting grace.
Exactly, a larger part of the Church is probably in heaven and not on earth. There are probably billions and billions in heaven that we will never know about until we meet them face to face when our life here is ended.
 
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The Liturgist

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Are those in heaven still alive? Is God a God of the living and not the dead?

(I am praying for your wife and hope she is doing well, sir.

May God bless you both abundantly).

Me too.
 
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David Lamb

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Are those in heaven still alive? Is God a God of the living and not the dead?

(I am praying for your wife and hope she is doing well, sir.

May God bless you both abundantly).
Yes, of course Christians who have gone to heaven are alive there. That's why I didn't say "dead Christians" in my earlier post.

Thank you very much for your kind good wishes. Yes, God has worked wonderfully through the surgeon and others, and my wife is free from cancer.
 
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prodromos

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Thank you very much for your kind good wishes. Yes, God has worked wonderfully through the surgeon and others, and my wife is free from cancer.
Wonderful :)
Glory to God!
 
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Yes, of course Christians who have gone to heaven are alive there. That's why I didn't say "dead Christians" in my earlier post.

Thank you very much for your kind good wishes. Yes, God has worked wonderfully through the surgeon and others, and my wife is free from cancer.
Happy to hear she is doing well! Glory to God!
 
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prodromos

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Yes, but in different "stages" (not the best word I am sure, but I hope you know what I mean). If Christians are meant to ask Christians in heaven to pray for them, it seems to me extremely surprising that we have no mention of such a thing in the whole of the New Testament. We do have the wonderful truth that the Saviour Himself is in heaven interceding for His people:

“Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.” (Heb 7:25 NKJV)

We also have examples of Christians requesting other Christians here on earth to pray for them, for instance:

“praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints — and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.” (Eph 6:18-20 NKJV)

But I cannot think of a single reference to requesting Christians in heaven to pray for Christians on earth.
I'm not going to argue regarding Scriptural support for the practice of seeking the prayers of the Saints in heaven, only testify that this has long been the practice in the Orthodox Church and it has consistently produced fruit glorifying God. I have personally witnessed several miracles in the context of the intercession of the Saints, have heard the personal testimony of others, and have read innumerable testimonies from many others.
Seeking the prayers of the Saints in the Orthodox Church is as natural as breathing, and the abundance of miracles resulting from their prayers is to us a clear testimony that it is pleasing to God. He wants there to be love between all members of His body. It is the same reason we pray for our dearly departed. We do not know how they stand before God, even if they seemed to be pious Christians with great love for God, only God knows their hearts, so because we love them, we continue to pray for their souls, that God would have mercy on them and forgive them if they had done anything that would prevent them entering in to God's heavenly kingdom.
For Orthodox Christians, the body of Christ, the Church, is a communion of love, and that love intertwines every aspect of our belief and activity. We love the Saints, and they love us by offering their "powerful and effective" prayers to God on our behalf. We love our departed family members and friends by offering our own prayers continually on their behalf. God is love and His body is a reflection of that love.
 
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In the early 7th century the Church in Rome taught definitively that Mary died when Pope Sergius I established the Feast of the Dormition of Mary in the liturgical calendar on the 15th of August. The same was taught throughout the Church.

Lex orandi, lex credendi.

Today, in the Catholic Church, it is now acceptable to believe that Mary did not die, but was assumed bodily into heaven without dying. That is a change in doctrine. The Catholic Church now teaches something contrary to what it originally taught.
That is not a what the Assumption means. We teach that she was assumed body and soul into heaven, yes, but we do not teach that she did not die.

I will have to review, and you have given me a task, yet a worthy one. What I do know of the Assumption comes from Mystical City of God by blessed Mary Agreda.

The work is approved by the Church and endorsed by several Popes. It speaks of Our Lady’s revelation of herself to Mary of Agreda.

In it is recounted Our Lord giving Mary the option not to die and be taken to heaven the way Enoch and Elijah were taken. Mary then, being the most humble of creatures, told Our Lord that she cannot go without dying, as Our Lord Himself tasted death, and she could not see herself going to heaven without dying, so Our Lord granted her wish and allowed her to die.

Some Catholics may think that Mary did not die, but that is not the true teaching of the Assumption.
When we die, our soul is separated from our body and we wait for the resurrection on the last day. Until that day, our soul is alive with a mind and a will, yet without a body.

Our Lord was resurrected, so He has a glorified body, and the Assumption teaches that Mary was resurrected and assumed body and soul into heaven to stand at the right hand of Our Lord, as described in Psalm 45 (44). “At your right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir”

You are right in that it would be a change if we taught that Mary did not die. Development makes a teaching more clear but does not contradict what has been taught before.
Change would be an admission that a previous teaching was in error and needed to be corrected.

The Assumption is a development of teaching, not a change. We do not teach that Mary did not die. I have to research it, but tradition recounts the funeral of Mary. She was buried with lillies (sp), but the next day the body could not be found only the smell of lillies remained. Lillies being a symbol of Easter signifying resurrection.

Peace be with you
 
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concretecamper

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All of Catholic tradition that I have ever heard says Our Lady died first and then was assumed into Heaven.

In fact, some Orthodox Christians believe that Mary did not die.

See how easy it is to make such a claim ^_^
 
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