A question about unbelievers sin

[Dave-W]

He knows all our thoughts as we think them, but I don't think he knows them ahead of time. The paths of electrons are probably predictable, conforming to physical laws.

Except He exists outside of our time stream.

 

[RDKirk]

No, I'm saying that I do not believe in predestination.

But what is predestination?

 

[RDKirk]

Read through the Old Testament and see if there are any places where it seemed that God did not expect an event to happen the way it did.

Scripture is written from man's viewpoint, not God's.

For example, when Adam and Eve sinned and were hiding from God, why did He ask, "Adam, where are you?" If He knew where Adam was and what he had done? Why was God disappointed and angry when He discovered that they had disobeyed Him if He knew in advance that it was going to happen?

Wait. Do you think that God lost the only two human beings in existence?

Let's stop there, because it betrays an essentially erroneous view of scripture that all the rest of your argument is based on.

Do you think that God created two people--the only two people ever--and put them into a specific garden with specific boundaries...and then He couldn't find them? He lost them? Is that really how you're reading that passage?

 

[dreadnought]

Except He exists outside of our time stream.

You are being scientific, I believe. I am being spiritual.

 

[dreadnought]

But what is predestination?

My understanding of predestination is that you are predestined to spend eternity in heaven or hell. Perhaps it can be looked at differently, that the Lord has great plans for each of us. However, to achieve these plans, we must walk with the Lord.

 

[RDKirk]

My understanding of predestination is that you are predestined to spend eternity in heaven or hell. Perhaps it can be looked at differently, that the Lord has great plans for each of us. However, to achieve these plans, we must walk with the Lord.

You only defined the word by using the word. What do you believe "are predestined" means?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Scripture is written from man's viewpoint, not God's.
Wait. Do you think that God lost the only two human beings in existence?
Let's stop there, because it betrays an essentially erroneous view of scripture that all the rest of your argument is based on.
Do you think that God created two people--the only two people ever--and put them into a specific garden with specific boundaries...and then He couldn't find them? He lost them? Is that really how you're reading that passage?

It's not about me or what I believe. You need to answer the questions, not sidestep them.

 

[dreadnought]

You only defined the word by using the word. What do you believe "are predestined" means?

I think it depends on who says it. Some believe predestination means something will happen and nothing can change it. Others believe predestination is what we could achieve if we walk with the Lord.

 

[RDKirk]

It's not about me or what I believe. You need to answer the questions, not sidestep them.

I did answer the question. Scripture is written from the viewpoint of human beings, not from the viewpoint of God. I'm sure you know what scripture does say of God's knowledge.

Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; his understanding is infinite (Psalm 147).

For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things (1 John 3).

Known to God from eternity are all his works Acts 15.

The LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts.-- 1 Chronicles 28

Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. -- Luke 12

But you are now claiming that with only two people on the earth, God was unable to keep track of them and didn't know what they'd done.

So with billions of people on the earth today, surely God can't know who I am, where I am, or what I've done...not by your argument.

 

[RDKirk]

I think it depends on who says it. Some believe predestination means something will happen and nothing can change it. Others believe predestination is what we could achieve if we walk with the Lord.

I explicitly asked what you believed. There is no reason to discuss what other people outside this conversation believe because they're not here to defend their beliefs.

 

[dreadnought]

I explicitly asked what you believed. There is no reason to discuss what other people outside this conversation believe because they're not here to defend their beliefs.

I believe the Lord has big plans for us, but to realize those plans, we need to walk with the Lord.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I did answer the question. Scripture is written from the viewpoint of human beings, not from the viewpoint of God. I'm sure you know what scripture does say of God's knowledge.

Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; his understanding is infinite (Psalm 147).

For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things (1 John 3).

Known to God from eternity are all his works Acts 15.

The LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts.-- 1 Chronicles 28

Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. -- Luke 12

But you are now claiming that with only two people on the earth, God was unable to keep track of them and didn't know what they'd done.

So with billions of people on the earth today, surely God can't know who I am, where I am, or what I've done...not by your argument.

None of your quotes prove that God knows every detail of a future that doesn't exist yet. Even the one where it says that God knows all things. He knows all things that are knowable, but a future that doesn't exist yet is not knowable. Knowing and travelling to the future may exist in Startrek and Back To The Future, but not in the Bible.

 

[dqhall]

There is no excuse for anyone in our nations not to know the elements of the gospel of Christ. Anyone can go to any church and hear all about it. They can watch Youtube and see many video clips explaining the gospel fully. Multitudes of unbelievers have attended evangelistic meetings and heard the gospel clearly, but they have walked out still rejecting Christ. Demons know the Bible from cover to cover and know all about the gospel, but they will never repent and be converted to Christ. The god of this world has blinded the minds of those who don't believe, lest they should see the real meaning of the Gospel. There are religious people in most churches who know all about the Bible and the gospel and yet remain unsaved because they just give lip service to God but their hearts are far from Him. The Pharisees heard all of Jesus' teaching and saw His miracles, but the majority of them refused to believe on Him.

No one can receive the spirit of repentance and saving faith unless there is a specific work of the Holy Spirit within them. The Holy Spirit is always working to draw people to Christ, but in spite of all that the majority of people in our nations are refusing to listen to Him, even though they know all about the gospel.

I find evil persons are not always that good at quoting Gospel verses. Some will state the Bible is the 100% true word of God without knowing what is in it, nor understanding it when they read it. Some prefer to go to Church rather than to read scripture. I used to like the monthly potluck suppers at one church. There was someone in this Forum who confessed going to church, but without having studied the Bible. Their family had begun to study the Bible at home. There are many paths in the Bible. Some go for the Joshua conquest route to win battles and seize properties, others go the route of Christian servitude and wisdom doing violence to no one. It is up to the individual to decide. If your church has a good pastor, church attendance may be good. Not all of the preachers are gifted and talented. God did not have every action of eternity figured out from the beginning. Look at technology. Things are improving. It is a sign of God's progress.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

God knowing every detail of the future is a philosophical concept, not a Biblical one. Show me any Biblical reference where God predicted the future, and I will show you that He planned it that way and arranged to fulfill what He planned, in the same way that we can plan a project and then work to complete it.

Well said!

One possibility, though is that God knows all possible futures. So for any event God knows the range of possible decisions, but not which one will actually be chosen (Neo-Molinism)

 

[Eloy Craft]

As for predestination and free will. Jesus' life was written about described in some detail long before He was born. An example of predestined life if there ever was one. In the Garden He asked His Father if there was a way to let the cup of suffering given Him to pass. He ended His Prayer with "Not my will but yours" An astounding example of free will. Freedom is the ability to do what ought to be done. When one finds they aren't doing that as much as they would like, there is an obstruction preventing their freedom.

God 's omniscience doesn't prevent His creatures from being self determined and free. He rains Grace on everyone to be able to do what ought to be done. He is mercifull and just to everyone. No one will spend eternity with a reason to blame God. He want's all people to be with Him for eternity. He wants to be with us infinitely more than we want to be with Him. He sent His Son to spend a life loving us like He would knowing we would give Him an agonizing death in return. Just to add, Jesus is the only person that had a life to give. We are all destined to die. Jesus was not. He freely chose to let us do with Him what we pleased. He wouldn't have died if we hadn't killed Him. That's free will and predestination made visible.

 

[Eloy Craft]

For example, when Adam and Eve sinned and were hiding from God, why did He ask, "Adam, where are you?"

Because they were ashamed and didn't want to be seen. God is like that. By the way Oscarr, your posts are very good to read. I'm glad you're a member. My mom believes, God empties Himself of His omniscience to relate to us on our level when it's good for us for Him to do. God's Love is an act of kenosis in her thinking.

 

[Eloy Craft]

if God's mind couldn't be changed from what He had already planned and knew what was going to happen?

Don't forget God is omnipotent. He is able to include our decisions in His plan. His plan was for no one to suffer death. He planned for human life to end in Glory with Him in eternity. He created us to be naturally free. Sin obstructs our freedom but God is able to include our bad choices in His plan. Don't think His plan is about Him in any way. He is self sufficient being. Everything that is needs Him. So His plan is entirely for our good. God is love and the nature of love is a sacrificial gift of self. A disinterested gift fo no other reason than to give. God created us to give Himself to and to share in His Divine life.

 

[Francis Drake]

From what I understand, God is in control of who is born and the details of their creation such as when, where, how, etc.

This is just tradition and mythology with no connection to scriptural truth. You are making a common, and extremely damaging mistake that runs rife through both church and society.
God handed dominion of earth over to mankind through Adam. Adam surrendered that sovereignty to Satan, which is why, referring to Satan, Jesus said.-
Jn14v30 No longer will I speak much with you; for the ruler of this world comes, and in Me he has nothing.
Given that Jesus told us that Satan was the ruler of the world, maybe we should start blaming Satan for all the world's ills instead of God! Or blame mankind for submitting to Satan's ideas.

So, as far as God controlling births etc., -
If someone's birth is the result of rape, then the rapist was in control, not God.
If someone's birth is the result of promiscuity, then both partners were in control, not God.

God obviously has foreknowledge of everything that will happen at any time, but that doesn't mean that God makes it happen. God is not a rapist, or a control freak.

He also has perfect for knowledge, I believe, since he is omniscient, and not time bound like we are. So He knows how each person will respond to each situation he/she faces.

Agreed, but God's foreknowledge is totally different to God controlling the response man will make to each situation.

He knows if a specific circumstance will draw a person to believe in Jesus, or if a specific circumstance will create a negative or evil response from someone.
So, my question is: how can unbelievers be held responsible for their sin when He made them...

No no no... We were made by our parents. That's why we look like our parents and have their mannerisms etc.
Our will is always free, within of course the constraints of our fellow man.

and placed them in those circumstances even though He knew that they would harden their hearts against Him and end up going to hell?

Certainly God can and does bring circumstances about where we need to make choices, and equally, God knows what those choices will be, and makes use of them to further His own purposes.
But God will never put his hand inside a man's heart and flip the "obedience/rebel switch" either way. Man alone has power over that internal switch.

We have a God given a conscience through which the Holy Spirit convicts every man woman and child on the planet. The more we go against that conscience, the more our spiritual deafness and blindness grows. We are responsible for those choices, not God. And God holds us responsible with no excuses.

Romans1v18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven upon all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, 19because the known of God is manifest among them, for God has revealed it to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

 

[Eloy Craft]

My understanding of predestination is that you are predestined to spend eternity in heaven or hell. Perhaps it can be looked at differently, that the Lord has great plans for each of us. However, to achieve these plans, we must walk with the Lord.

I can't accept that God would predestine anyone to refuse His love. I do believe there are some predestined for heaven, A special task for them to do. I think He equips them with special graces to accomplish the task. We see Moses equipped with special graces. The prophets too.

 

[sdowney717]

I can't accept that God would predestine anyone to refuse His love. I do believe there are some predestined for heaven, A special task for them to do. I think He equips them with special graces to accomplish the task. We see Moses equipped with special graces. The prophets too.

All people are enemies of God, until born again.
The gospel, and Jesus as the Christ, is veiled, hidden from the minds of unbelievers by Satan.
That does not change until God shines His light out through us, by making us born of God by His sovereign choice.

2 Corinthians 4 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Light of Christ’s Gospel
1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.