A question about the rapture

[dfw69]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 NKJV

1. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

This is addressed later in the text

we ask you, 2. not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

This Paul addresses first …the day of the Lord

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ...

The day of the Lord and the rapture are 2 different things

2 things preceded the day of the Lord

Nothing precedes the rapture

Assuming a pre-trib rapture "gathering together" vs 1, and assuming "the son of perdition" vs 3 is the anti-Christ. Verse 3 says two things must happen before the rapture:

1) the falling away (the great apostacy in the church).
2) and the man of sin is revealed (the anti-Christ)

But I assumed the prophecies indicated that the anti-Christ would not be revealed under 3 and half years into the tribulation.

Q. What does verse 3 really mean? Is Paul here suggesting a mid-trib rapture?

Paul does not address the timing of the rapture in this verses. He addresses the fear of those who taught that the day of the Lord is upon them which is a terrible day of wrath and judgment …not a gathering and joyous time that the rapture will be …

Paul is revealing that 2 things will takes place before the wrath against the nations and return of Jesus to rule over the Jews

The antichrist will deceive those that have fallen away from the beliefs of the good news that is found in Jesus and He will claim that he is God and they that have fallen away will rise up against the Jews who keep the commandments of God but testifying of Jesus

 

[dfw69]

This is confusing because of the pre-trib rapture doctrine.

Not confusing at all

The scripture has been misunderstood in this. No one goes to heaven via rapture,

Not true the rapture takes place many years before the day of the Lord takes place. Jesus in John 14 testifies returning for his disciples to take them to His fathers house in heaven not to establish the kingdom yet .. There is no mention of His return to establish the kingdom when He told His disciples of His return for them in John 14

because when He returns, He’s coming here to stay with us!

At His 2nd advent to the Jews , yes He promises to return to the Jews and He will become the King of the Jews

We will witness all this prophecy unfolding

Nope not true

, but those of us who are In Him, will be protected- like the Passover, if we follow His instructions.

The world may be planning some fake return of Jesus and fake rapture using hidden technology but it will not fulfill prophecy it will be lies and deception with many false Christ and false prophets waiting in the corners

 

[dfw69]

What he's getting at is a "post-tribulation rapture". The idea of the rapture as is commonly spoken of by some protestant groups -meaning that everyone will be whisked away to escape persecution- is only a modern idea. It only came about among some protestant groups circa 1840 or so. It was never a part of Christianity.

If Paul and Jesus taught it then it was part of Christianity lol

 

[dfw69]

Friend, the rapture theory is false doctrine,

No it’s not

God hates the fly away doctrine, Ezekiel chapter 13 to document.

Lol no He does not… and God will send His only begotten Son to gather us up with the sound of 2 trumpets to raise His dead and transformed the living given them imperishable and immoral bodies so that we may live in His presence in heaven

Second thessalonians chapter 2, Son of perdition is satan,

Then why not say satan ?

he comes 6th trump in his role as antichrist.

Antichrist is a man

Majority of people don't have gospel armory on, they are biblically illiterate.

The gospel means good news and the rapture is good news and the hope of salvation from the wrath to come and from the day of the Lord …

Wisdom and knowledge of Gods word is the gospel armour, ephesians chapter 6 and James chapter 1.

Keeping the faith to trust in Jesus to come and save us from the coming wrath and day of the Lord is wisdom and knowledge of God word

What are consequences for worship antichrist??.

Those that worship the antichrist will deny the truth and faith found in Gods Son and fall away from the faith and will end up in the lake of fire

Those who embrace rapture theory will worship antichrist. They are biblically illiterate.

Well Jesus said in John 14 He’s coming back for us and Paul describes how that will take place with no mention of us worshiping antichrist for believing in their words

Second thessalonians chapter 2, God is sending strong delusions on those who love not the truth. Don't be in this group. Put on gospel armour and stand for something.

The strong delusion is the belief that Jesus is not Gods Son nor heir to the throne of David and the belief that the antichrist when he appears will be God in the flesh …

The rapture is the truth and a part of the good news . It’s the hope of salvation from wrath and day of the Lord that many are falling away from believing because of false teachings

 

[dfw69]

You can't just stop with verse 17. We don't read other books like that and the bible is no different. We have to read chapter by chapter and verse by verse. There were no chapters and Paul continues this very subject -

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
"Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

“Comfort one another with these words” ends this particular revelation of the rapture

"But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

Julie can you not see Paul is making a new case?

Do you not see he is now addressing the times and seasons ?

Specifically he is now explaining 2 different times and seasons with 2 different appearances and 2 different appointments and different harvest with 2 different outcomes for 2 different classes of people ???

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."
"For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

This is the time and season for the day of the lord which will take place like a thief in the night for those in darkness

He just tells us the name of the very event he's talking about -The day of the Lord. There was no change of subject.

But there is a change in point .. he’s making a new case for the rapture and day of the lord and how they are 2 different times and seasons

And he makes it clear we are not appointed the day of wrath which is the day of the lord … we are appointed salvation

meaning an appointment for salvation is scribed for us in heaven

That's the thing, I have no preconceptions at this point. I once believed as you did but it's not biblical. If I had any preconceived notions when I first set out to study this years ago they would have been towards a pretrib rapture.
But Christ did not describe a pretrib rapture and neither did Paul. The mystery that Paul talks about is that "all are changed" at the last trump. We are meeting Christ at that moment in our spiritual bodies not flying away.

This is just simply not true …

 

[notworthconsideration]

Not confusing at all

I was responding to someone who was confused, so yes- it was confusing!

Not true

Nope not true

You’re not real good with understanding how to discuss topics, are you?
What you did to me is rude. You’ve denied my right to discuss this topic with someone by butting in on my answers to someone else’s inquiry….

You’re always welcome to ask questions of anything I wrote— but instead, you label my personal answers to a sincere request as all wrong. Who do you think you are?

Now, I have to worry about you ambushing me like this every conversation I have that you don’t agree with… you’ve already shown that aggression. But don’t worry, since it’s obviously your duty smack down anyone who doesn’t agree with you, I can no longer feel free to discuss topics on this site.

and fake rapture using hidden technology

Whack-a-doodle nonsense!

 

[dfw69]

I was responding to someone who was confused, so yes- it was confusing!

Kool

You’re not real good with understanding how to discuss topics, are you?

This is a forum but ok

What you did to me is rude. You’ve denied my right to discuss this topic with someone by butting in on my answers to someone else’s inquiry….

Sorry to butt in … i can butt out so you can continue with them … excuse my rudeness

You’re always welcome to ask questions of anything I wrote— but instead, you label my personal answers to a sincere request as all wrong. Who do you think you are?

Nobody really just defending the faith

Now, I have to worry about you ambushing me like this every conversation I have that you don’t agree with…

Nope you won’t you made your concerns clear

you’ve already shown that aggression. But don’t worry, since it’s obviously your duty smack down anyone who doesn’t agree with you, I can no longer feel free to discuss topics on this site.

Dude it was just one post .. you can continue I won’t bother you…

Whack-a-doodle nonsense!

Seriously tech is modern witchcraft and sorcery

You got Haarp weather manipulation
Holographic technology
Ever heard of voice of god weapon?
Satellites can do untold wonders
Direct energy weapons
Etc…

 

[JulieB67]

“Comfort one another with these words” ends this particular revelation of the rapture

He was comforting them because the original subject matter was concerning where their dead loved ones are. He then proceeds to tell them. But the subject of the Lord's return continues on in chapter 5.

If nothing proceeds a " pretrib rapture" then Paul wouldn't have had to address their confusion in the second letter. The subject is once again "our gathering back to him" If a pretrib rapture were even possible in their lifetimes he would not have had to warn them against deception regardless. He didn't tell them don't worry about the day of the Lord because you're not going to be here the Lord is going to return before that to take Christians away. No, he was very strict in his warning and told them do not be deceived by any means. He told them, warned them. Meaning the timing is very important.

Specifically he is now explaining 2 different times and seasons with 2 different appearances and 2 different appointments and different harvest with 2 different outcomes for 2 different classes of people ???

He does not separate the two. The thought about the Lord's return continues. He states but of the times and seasons you "know perfectly well..." meaning he has already told them the times and the seasons before about the Lord's return. Which is a teaching we obviously aren't privy to. We only have some of his letters he wrote. He even reminds them in his second letter when they become confused. Meaning he even told them about the son of perdition sitting on the throne, etc.

II Thessalonians 2:5 "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

He told them in person these things. Again, we obviously were not privy to all of those teachings. We only have his letters. But he is reminding them.


They had become confused because they thought our gathering back togethe-which happens at the Day of the Lord/Christ was at hand. He told them it's not and that certain things had to happen before that and to not be confused by any means. Same warning Christ's gives about this very same subject.

And he makes it clear we are not appointed the day of wrath

Wrath is not the same thing as tribulation.

He didn't say we would not be here during that day, quite the opposite. He states we are not in darkness that the day should overtake us as thief. He didn't state no one would be here. Christ states the same thing. He states if one knows when the thief (day of the Lord) would come they would have watched so when that day comes one's house would not be broken up. Meaning we are to know the signs that both Christ and Paul lay out. That's what a watchman does.

And why would Christians have to watch for the thief -which we already have been told is the analogy for the day of the Lord if they were going to be raptured away before the day of the Lord? Makes no sense. We can't separate the two. He only returns one more time and that's what's laid out.

 

[dfw69]

He was comforting them because the original subject matter was concerning where their dead loved ones are.

Actually no the comfort was that we are promised the hope of glory and not the wrath to come. We are promised salvation not the AC and his deception. That is for those that walk in darkness and are asleep at night and it’s taking place at a different appointment from what we are promised

He then proceeds to tell them. But the subject of the Lord's return continues on in chapter 5.

To counter those that are saying the Day of the Lord is at hand which were deceivers and liars stirring up the church with their deceptions

He had to address their lies and convince the church that there are 2 appointments
one for those in Christ and one for those who rebel against Christ

If nothing proceedsa " pretrib rapture" then Paul wouldn't have had to address their confusion in the second letter.

It’s possible they forgot and were being told they must go through the tribulation and await His appearance and watch for His return and the signs of Gods wrath was upon them …and Paul had to remind them what he taught them before …

Paul had to address their confusion for they were confused because of the false teachings of false teachers ,such as are today, saying the day of the Lord is at hand putting them in fear … Paul was addressing the lies and false prophets

The Rapture is a day of salvation and the accumulation of wealth for our faith in Him.. It is a glorious time and a time of joy and rejoicing with no mentioning of the wrath and fiery judgements taking place…

Only 2 trumpets will be sounding off on that day …It’s the First and the Last trumpets to sound off …It’s the Alpha trumpet that will resurrect the dead and the Omega trumpet that will transform us to be like Him

The subject is once again "our gathering back to him" If a pretrib rapture were even possible in their lifetimes he would not have had to warn them against deception regardless.

They are yet to be raptured in the future at the appointed time and though they are dead they will rejoice when they will rise from the dead

But again the warning is not that they are going to miss the rapture because their rapture is still yet to take place …. The warning was against the false teachings that the day of the Lords wrath was upon them coming from those that put them in fear that the day of the Lord was at hand

Like today such talk exist and with the new technological advances the enemy has to deceive , their case to deceive is even stronger than before … Rev 18:23 reveals it is mystery Babylon who is responsible for the lies and deceptions to mislead by her sorceries that are going to be used to deceive the nations that the day of the Lord is come to create a new age

And Jesus prophesied of this coming deception and said do not be deceive by the false prophets and coming false messiahs who will eventually lead the masses against Christianity

He states but of the times and seasons you "know perfectly well..." meaning he has told them the times and the seasons before about the Lord's return.

Sister the times and seasons refers to the Jewish holy days and the feast they celebrate

And there are 3 harvest and 3 different appointments and one in the spring ,one in the summer and one in the fall ….

The rapture of the church takes place in the spring …

The wheat harvest which is the Jews harvest (the elect) separating the tares from the wheat
True Jews from false Jews takes place in the summer

The grape harvest is in the fall and that’s Armageddon the destruction of the nations who follow the AC to seek to take over Jerusalem

Yes Paul taught them these things to some degree

Which is a teaching we obviously aren't privy to. We only have some letters he wrote. He even reminds them in his second letter when they become confused. Meaning he even told them about the son of perdition sitting on the throne, etc.

Yes Paul had revelation and was kind enough to reveal God plan to his church

II Thessalonians 2:5 “Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

He told them in person these things.

Yes amen

They had become confused because they thought our gathering back together happens at the Day of the Lord/Christ was at hand.

No sis that’s not correct they probably thought they missed the rapture or thought the rapture does not exist because of the lies coming from false teachers …..

Paul had to assure them that they will be a part of the rapture and that they were not going to go through the wrath of God nor the AC nor the falling away from the faith

That is why he states “concerning the rapture and our gathering” because they were being thrown off by the lies that the day of the Lord was upon them

He told them it's not and that certain things had to happen before that and to not be confused by any means.

No he told them the day of the Lord was not upon them and that certain things need to take place before the wrath falls upon those that will worship AC as God

The rapture is addressed later in the text

Same warning Christ's gives about this very same subject.

What warning are you referring to?

And he then reminded them that he had told them before of these things when he was with them

Yes he had to remind them that the falling away, and man of sin comes first before the Wrath of the day of the Lord

Wrath is not the same thing as tribulation.

Wrath is the punishment for those who fall away to deny Jesus and believe that Jesus is not who He says He is and these lost souls will one day persecute those that still seek Him and await His return to reign in Jerusalem and those that fall away they will cause tribulation upon those who believe

He didn't say we would not be here during that day,

We won’t be because he states it’s a different appointment from what we are expecting sister

quite the opposite. He states we are not in darkness that the day should overtake us as thief. He didn't state no one would be here.

Well that what He’s implying…

he certainly is not saying we will be there to see it unfold and fall upon the wicked and we miraculously escape the wrath while it’s being pour out

Christ states the same thing. He states if one knows when the thief (day of the Lord) would come they would have watched so their house would not be broken up. Meaning we are to know the signs that both Christ and Paul lay out. That's what a watchman does.

When Jesus taught that teaching He was talking to the watchman of the Jews awaiting their kingdom and throne of David to be established… Jesus was not addressing the Rapture which was a concept unknown to them at the time

We are not Jews.. we are not the watchmen of the House … we are children seeking a heavenly place

They only place Jesus addresses the Rapture is found in John 14 with no mention of tribulation nor wrath

Matt 24 is addressing His 2nd coming to reign in Jerusalem

And why would Christians have to watch for the thief

We don’t … the watchman are called to look out for Him …as for us , we are not watchmen …we are children

Jesus is addressing the Jews and the Rabbi leaders of the house of Israel

The children are seeking their Father to return not a Father disguised as a Thief

which we already have been told is the analogy for the day of the Lord if they were going to be raptured away before the day of the Lord? Makes no sense.

Makes perfect sense if you understand the purpose of the time and season for those that belong to the day and the time and season for those in darkness

We can't separate the two. He only returns one more time and that's what's laid out.

Not true sis and scripture reveals 2 comings

one takes place during the day in the air with 2 trumpets sounding off to gather up His children

One takes place at night during a time of darkness in the last days to gather the elect Jews at the opening of 7 seals and the sounding of 7 trumpets and pouring out of 7 vails and the watchmen of the house of Israel better beware in those days


You cannot combine our Rapture with the day of the Lord and that is in fact what Paul was addressing that put fear in the Thes church. False teachings such as this lead astray from the faith in Christ to save us from the wrath to come

 

[JulieB67]

Actually no the comfort was that we are promised the hope of glory and not the wrath to come

No, the original subject was this,

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

He didn't want them to worry.

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

He then goes on and explains about them concerning the return of Jesus and says in the end,

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

He explained about the dead and how that relates to his coming and says,

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

This was all in relation to verse 13 and that they sorrow not as others which have no hope. Since he talked about the Lord's return he continues on that thought into the next chapter.

Sister the times and seasons refers to the Jewish holy days and the feast they celebrate

The subject Paul is talking about is the Day of the Lord. He was not talking about Jewish holy days to the Thessalonians. If so provide scripture. He told them He didn't need to tell them the times and seasons because they knew perfectly well that the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night. That is the time he is talking about.

No sis that’s not correct they probably thought they missed the rapture or thought the rapture does not exist because of the lies coming

It's just not biblical. I used to believe as you do but I wouldn't just change the way I believe if I thought there were scriptures to back this up. We are talking about our gathering back together -which happens at the Day of the Lord.

What warning are you referring to?

Both Christ and Paul give out warnings to not be deceived by any means on the subject of his return.

When Jesus taught that teaching He was talking to the watchman of the Jews

He was talking to the disciples about the end of the age and his return. He has foretold us "all things" and never mentioned a pretrib rapture, quite the opposite.

with no mention of tribulation

Christ taught about tribulation and his return coming after the tribulation of those days...

We don’t … the watchman are called to look out for Him …as for us , we are not watchmen …

Not true. Both Christ and Paul state we are to watch.

If you don't believe Christ in the gospels, believe Paul whol was in Greece talking to the Thessalonian/Christians on this subject,

I Thessalonians 5:4 "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

I Thessalonians 5:5 "Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

I Thessalonians 5:6 "Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

Makes perfect sense if you understand the purpose of the time and season for those that belong to the day and the time and season for those in darkness

That day will over take some that are in darkness spiritually but that day will not overtake those that are in the light simple. But it's still one day, one return.

Jesus is addressing the Jews and the Rabbi leaders of the house of Israel

No, in Matthew 24 Christ is talking to the disciples that simply as for signs of his return.

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

one takes place during the day in the air with 2 trumpets sounding off to gather up His children

Christ returns at the last trump. That's the farthest out. We know from Revelation he returns at the 7th. Which fits perfect that it's the last and trump of God being the 7th. Perfection at it's best.

I don't think we're going to agree on this....

 

[dfw69]

No, the original subject was this,

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

He didn't want them to worry.

Correct and this is a description of our Rapture to heaven and the church needed to be assured that their dead were going to be resurrected and still have a hope to be raptured …perhaps deaths were occurring because of persecutions

I Thessalonians 4:14 “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Yes when He returns for us in the air to sound off the 2 trumpets known as the first and the last

He then goes on and explains about them concerning the return of Jesus and says in the end,

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

Notice that there is no mentioning of His return to the earth? He only appears above to sound off the 2 trumpets …

Notice that this event is not found anywhere in Revelation?

Revelation is full of descriptions of the day of the Lord and yet no mention of Paul’s rapture event? Don’t you think that would be described somewhere in revelation if the event is supposed to take place at that time and season?

He explained about the dead and how that relates to his coming and says,

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

That truly is comforting to know whether we live or die we will be raptured to go up to meet Him when He appears to sound off the 2 trumpets

This was all in relation to verse 13 and that they sorrow not as others which have no hope.
Since he talked about the Lord's return he continues on that thought into the next chapter.

The Lords return in the air was described first and not to be confused with the day of the Lord for those in darkness which he described afterwards

The subject Paul is talking about is the Day of the Lord.

And here is where you dont see the truth that the day of the Lord and our gathering are distinguished from each other

He was not talking about Jewish holy days to the Thessalonians. If so provide scripture.

why not? he was in fact knowledgeable concerning such things and it’s not hard to fathom that he did reference the holy days

It’s evident he taught them many Jewish things such as not circumcising to enter into Torah and keeping away from the law which is another gospel but this is another subject…

He told them He didn't need to tell them the times and seasons because they knew perfectly well that the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night. That is the time he is talking about.

yes and he also said we are not appointed that day (the day of the Lord) we are appointed salvation by way of rapture

Yet you are suggesting the rapture takes place after the falling away and after the man of sin sits in the temple as God and after the great tribulation right? or am I missing something? And the only thing we are saved from is the wrath being poured out on those who worship a man as God?

I’m curious as to when do you see the timing for the rapture and transformation to take place ? And if it is during the day of the Lord described in revelation then where is it found in revelation?

It's just not biblical. I used to believe as you do but I wouldn't just change the way I believe if I thought there were scriptures to back this up. We are talking about our gathering back together -which happens at the Day of the Lord.

you should not have walked away from the faith that Christ comes for His church to take us to heaven

What’s next? Believing the law is necessary to worship God and finally denying Jesus as well? These are rhetorical questions …

But i am curious as to how you see how the gathering takes place in your mind and what you are doing to be a part of that gathering? So if you care to explain I would love to hear from you

Both Christ and Paul give out warnings to not be deceived by any means on the subject of his return.

Christ warnings are about specific deceptions and they differ from Paul’s warning

Paul warns not to believe the day of the Lord has come upon us until 2 specific things takes place first

And Jesus warns against those that claim to know Him yet are hypocrites and deceivers and false prophets and false messiahs that will cause persecution against the faith

But Jesus gives clear warning before His return and it involves the Jews and their temple with no mention of our rapture as Paul described it

He was talking to the disciples about the end of the age and his return. He has foretold us "all things" and never mentioned a pretrib rapture, quite the opposite.

Well that is because the Jews will not experience the Rapture because they are still in disbelief …Jesus only revealed to them the signs of His return to them …

Christ taught about tribulation and his return coming after the tribulation of those days...

Yes after the great tribulation that comes from Jerusalem

If you don't believe Christ, believe Paul was in Greece talking to the Thessalonian/Christians on this subject,

I Thessalonians 5:4 "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,that that day should overtake you as a thief."

I Thessalonians 5:5 "Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

I Thessalonians 5:6 "Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

We watch for the Rapture and stand on the faith which is the hope of salvation and not called to be watchmen of the house of Israel nor looking for the day of the Lord

That day will over take some that are in darkness spiritually but that day will not overtake those that are in the light simple. But it's still one day, one return.

If it were one return then scripture would show both events happening together which it does not . They are 2 different appointments and 2 different times and seasons sis

Christ returns at the last trump. That's the farthest out. We know from Revelation he returns at the 7th. Which fits perfect that it's the last and trump of God being the 7th. Perfection at this best.

I don't think we're going to agree on this....

Lastly Paul says at the last trump we are changed at a twinkling of an eye, so the first trump raised the dead and the last trump transformed us into the children of God …

Yet your suggesting Paul is referring to the last trump of 7 trumpets? Yet Paul only mentions 2 trumpets sounding off with 2 specific events taking place but in revelation there is no mention of Christ returning to earth after the 7th trumpet nor the mentioning of our rapture at the sound of the 7th trumpet sis ….


Good conversation though thanks

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 NKJV

1. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2. not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ...

Assuming a pre-trib rapture "gathering together" vs 1, and assuming "the son of perdition" vs 3 is the anti-Christ. Verse 3 says two things must happen before the rapture:

1) the falling away (the great apostacy in the church).
2) and the man of sin is revealed (the anti-Christ)

But I assumed the prophecies indicated that the anti-Christ would not be revealed under 3 and half years into the tribulation.

Q. What does verse 3 really mean? Is Paul here suggesting a mid-trib rapture?

The Scripture says that the Rapture will take place as soon as the time of the Gentiles is finished. This means that when the last Gentile person receives Christ, the Rapture will take place. The Rapture could happen at any time, and the 1st Century believers thought it was going to happen in their life times. Paul wrote as if he believed that he would be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The Father knows how many of the Gentiles will receive Christ and this could happen tonight, tomorrow, or at any time. It will happen without warning. There are no other pre-requisites for it.

The Philadelphia church has been promised that it will not go through the Tribulation, therefore it seems that every church that follows the positive pattern of that church will be Raptured, while the Laodicean church because it depends more on its wealth and prosperity will go through the Tribulation. What does this mean? Maybe those prosperity preaching Charismatic churches won't be Raptured because of their similarity to the Laodicean Church.

Food for thought.

 

[iamlamad]

You can't just stop with verse 17. We don't read other books like that and the bible is no different. We have to read chapter by chapter and verse by verse. There were no chapters and Paul continues this very subject -

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
"Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
"But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."
"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."
"For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

He just tells us the name of the very event he's talking about -The day of the Lord. There was no change of subject.



That's the thing, I have no preconceptions at this point. I once believed as you did but it's not biblical. If I had any preconceived notions when I first set out to study this years ago they would have been towards a pretrib rapture.
But Christ did not describe a pretrib rapture and neither did Paul. The mystery that Paul talks about is that "all are changed" at the last trump. We are meeting Christ at that moment in our spiritual bodies not flying away.

Sorry, but the subject was the rapture from chapter 4. Paul's mention of the Day of the Lord later and Wrath later, only shows us that the rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. The rapture does not fit the Day. Isaiah 13 tells us the Day comes with "wrath and fierce anger." That does not fit the rapture. The rapture comes first, and THEN the start of the Day.

This order is confirmed in Revelation. The rapture will come between the 5th and 6th seals, and then John SAW the just-raptured church right after the 6th seal and wrote about it as the crowd too large to number in the next chapter.
This is further confirmed in chapter 19, for the saints are all in heaven for the marriage.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Not confusing at all

Not true the rapture takes place many years before the day of the Lord takes place. Jesus in John 14 testifies returning for his disciples to take them to His fathers house in heaven not to establish the kingdom yet .. There is no mention of His return to establish the kingdom when He told His disciples of His return for them in John 14



At His 2nd advent to the Jews , yes He promises to return to the Jews and He will become the King of the Jews


Nope not true

The world may be planning some fake return of Jesus and fake rapture using hidden technology but it will not fulfill prophecy it will be lies and deception with many false Christ and false prophets waiting in the corners

The Rapture will happen at the end of the time of the Gentiles, which we are in at present. When the last Gentile has received Christ as Saviour, then Rapture will happen. This could happen at any moment. First Century Christians knew this and expected the Rapture in their lifetime, because no one knew when the full quota of Gentiles will be saved all the time through the 2000 years since the First Century. This is why the Scripture says that we should always be ready for the Rapture to happen any time.

The Scripture talks of other events that have to happen before Christ returns in person.
Israel returning to their own land
Babylon (which is presently being rebuilt) destroyed
The Temple rebuilt so Christ can take the throne of David
The rise of the AntiChrist and the False Prophet
The Great Tribulation, which involves the Jews and Gentile unbelievers still living.
The appearance of the two witnesses
The Jewish remnant repenting and petitioning Christ to return. (Hosea 5:15).
The unbelieving dead resurrected to stand before the Great White Throne to be judged according to their works.

The First Century Christians knew all this, and also knew that there was going to be a Rapture which could happen to them without warning at any time. However, the Second Coming of Christ in person involves many events that gives those who have ears to hear plenty of warning.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Sorry, but the subject was the rapture from chapter 4. Paul's mention of the Day of the Lord later and Wrath later, only shows us that the rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. The rapture does not fit the Day. Isaiah 13 tells us the Day comes with "wrath and fierce anger." That does not fit the rapture. The rapture comes first, and THEN the start of the Day.

This order is confirmed in Revelation. The rapture will come between the 5th and 6th seals, and then John SAW the just-raptured church right after the 6th seal and wrote about it as the crowd too large to number in the next chapter.
This is further confirmed in chapter 19, for the saints are all in heaven for the marriage.

The Bema throne of Christ to reward believers for their service and the marriage supper of the Lamb will take place after the Rapture and at the same time as the Great Tribulation is happening on earth.

 

[JulieB67]

Sorry, but the subject was the rapture from chapter 4. Paul's mention of the Day of the Lord later and Wrath later,

There were no chapters in the manuscripts and Paul starts the next thought with -but of the times and seasons...He is most definitely continuing his train of thought.

This order is confirmed in Revelation. The rapture will come between the 5th and 6th seals, and then John SAW the just-raptured church right after the 6th seal

The seals are not actions and I don't know why so many people think they are. They are knowledge of the events that one needs to be "sealed/stamped with". It's a stamp/mark

They are just an overiew of what's going to happen.

Example -Revelation 6:14 "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Very same event -Revelation 16:20 "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

Unless everyone believes that "every island and mountain" is just going to suddenly piece themselves back together only to break apart again. We have to apply some common sense.

Example -Revelation 6:17 "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Revelation 15:7 "And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever."

This is further confirmed in chapter 19, for the saints are all in heaven for the marriage.

Revelation 19:2 "For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."

This is after the tribulation. The marriage supper is being prepared.

Revelation 19:7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."

The marriage supper "is come". It is placed right after the great harlot is judged, not before as most pretribbers believe. They think they are going to be in heaven having the supper when everything is going on.

And the marriage supper takes place on earth,

Isaiah 25:3 "Therefore shall the strong people glorify Thee, the city of the terrible nations shall fear Thee."

Isaiah 25:4 "For Thou hast been a strength to the poor a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall."

Isaiah 25:5 "Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low."

All future, Satan will be thrown into the pit..


Isaiah 25:6 "And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, and fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

Isaiah 25:7 "And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations."

Again, future.

Christ is bringing all the saints with him.

 

[DavidPT]

The Bema throne of Christ to reward believers for their service and the marriage supper of the Lamb will take place after the Rapture and at the same time as the Great Tribulation is happening on earth.

Does that mean this Bema throne of Christ to reward believers for their service, that this happens multiple times at different times? After all, don't Pretribbers insist the lost left behind during the Pretrib rapture, that many of them become saved during great tribulation? When are they too rewarded for their service since it can't be meaning during when you are meaning if they are still back on earth at the time? Even if they die during great tribulation, how is that going to help them at this point since Pretribbers have the dead in Christ rising during the Pretrib rapture, therefore, anyone that is allegedly saved during GT then dies during great tribulation can't possibly still be rising from the dead if that resurrection already took place earlier.

Then there is the following to factor in as well.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Unless Pretribbers believe, therefore, insist, that this is meaning during the Pretrib rapture, this can only mean one thing if this is instead future to this alleged Pretrib rapture. It would mean Pretribbers are being transported to heaven while still in mortal bodies since they couldn't possibly be in immortal bodies yet, if 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 is meaning future to this alleged Pretrib rapture. Apparently, Pretribbers can do things even Christ never did. They can ascend to heaven while still in mortal bodies, while Christ, when He ascended into heaven, He was not still living in a mortal body, He was living in an immortal body.


I know, I get it. Who cares about any of these other things one now needs to explain if there is this Pretrib rapture. None of that matters, right? All that matters is, a Pretrib rapture is Biblical, period, end of story, nothing more to see here.

 

[Timtofly]

This is confusing because of the pre-trib rapture doctrine. The scripture has been misunderstood in this. No one goes to heaven via rapture, because when He returns, He’s coming here to stay with us! We will witness all this prophecy unfolding, but those of us who are In Him, will be protected- like the Passover, if we follow His instructions.

No, the church stays in Heaven (Paradise) until the New Jerusalem descends, 1,000 years after the Second Coming. That is when the church comes back to the earth.

 

[Timtofly]

17 then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;

If we just read it as it is written, clouds are up high in the air - the very air we breath. It is my guess, if we had a hundred 5th graders read this verse, they would picture Jesus stopping high in the air, and hidden by clouds to call up His people.

I understand, anyone can read into a verse according to their preconceptions.

It will happen so fast, no one is going to argue the particulars. Paul slows it down enough to give us some insight. Paradise will be back to normal as if the event never happened, except the rest of the church is now in Paradise waiting for the tribulation, the final harvest to be over. Then waiting until the 1,000 years are over. Then the church descends as the New Jerusalem.

 

[dfw69]

The Rapture will happen at the end of the time of the Gentiles, which we are in at present. When the last Gentile has received Christ as Saviour, then Rapture will happen. This could happen at any moment.

I don’t believe so ..the time of the gentiles will continue right up to the rise and fall of the antichrist and the return of Jesus ends the time of the gentiles era . The new era which is the millennium begins when the Jews receive and accept Jesus and at the end of the time of the gentiles

The time of the gentiles just means gentile kingdoms that rise and fall throughout History…Satan is ruling over the gentiles kingdoms …The end of the world is the end of the time of the gentiles …It is the end of human government with all its weaknesses and flawed governance and policies as well as the end of its wickedness and greed


Jesus will create a divine government in Jerusalem and the lion will sleep with the lamb ..the lion will no longer hunger for lambs flesh and the lamb will no longer fear the Lion for they will be at rest

First Century Christians knew this and expected the Rapture in their lifetime, because no one knew when the full quota of Gentiles will be saved all the time through the 2000 years since the First Century. This is why the Scripture says that we should always be ready for the Rapture to happen any time.

There is no distinction between Jews and gentiles in Christ . Jesus is simply starting a family through His teachings. He taught us to believe in Him to become the children of God and to love one another as family members in Him

The Scripture talks of other events that have to happen before Christ returns in person.
Israel returning to their own land
Babylon (which is presently being rebuilt) destroyed
The Temple rebuilt so Christ can take the throne of David
The rise of the AntiChrist and the False Prophet
The Great Tribulation, which involves the Jews and Gentile unbelievers still living.
The appearance of the two witnesses
The Jewish remnant repenting and petitioning Christ to return. (Hosea 5:15).

Yes I agree these sign takes place before He returns to reign in Jerusalem

The unbelieving dead resurrected to stand before the Great White Throne to be judged according to their works.

This is after the millennium yes

The First Century Christians knew all this, and also knew that there was going to be a Rapture which could happen to them without warning at any time.

Perhaps they knew when the timing of the rapture would happen but that knowledge was lost … who knows???

They definitely knew how it would take place …

However, the Second Coming of Christ in person involves many events that gives those who have ears to hear plenty of warning.

Yes amen