A question about the rapture

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think you are close, but I disagree here: It is when the last church age martyr is killed. At the 5th seal, the martyrs of the church age, they want to know when God will begin judgment. They are told, judgment will not begin until the last martyr is killed as they all were killed, in the category of church age martyrs. The church has been waiting at the 5th seal since Stephen was killed.

The last martyr will be killed, the rapture will take place, ending the church age, and the Day of the Lord will begin, as we read at the 6th seal.

The whole reason for the cosmos is the redemption of billions of men and women. The first thing that God did before creating the cosmos was to set up His plan for the redemption of mankind. The whole universe of galaxies, stars, and planets is intricately designed to provide the perfect environment for mankind to live. The sun is in its mid-life where it is perfectly placed to support human and animal life. If it wasn't bright enough, it would be too cold, and if it got any brighter, we would all be burned up. The moon is in the optimal position to ensure that earth's atmosphere and water are not sucked out into space. Our Milky Way galaxy is uniquely formed and our solar system is in exactly the right place in it to support life. Anywhere else, and life would be impossible.

Therefore, once the last person in God's book of life is converted to Christ, then God's plan of redemption for mankind will be fulfilled, the dead in Christ will rise, and those who are alive will go up to meet the Lord in the air. Then the Great Tribulation will commence. After that Jesus will return in person with His angels and saints to start His 1000 year reign.

No one knows when the last person in God's book of life will be converted to Christ. The Apostles believed it was going to be in their lifetime, and Paul writing to the Thessalonians told them to be ready to expect the rapture at any time. Although the rapture could happen at any time, without warning, there are definite events that need to happen before Jesus comes in person. One event is all Jews from around the world will move to Israel. When there is a mass migration of Jews from all the countries of the world, then people will know that the final events leading up to the second coming of Jesus are happening.

 

[David Kent]

The first church - a Jewish church - died out. God had waited for a sufficient time for the leadership of Israel to accept Him as their Messiah. When they failed, God put blindness in part upon the Jews and sent Paul to the Gentiles. We owe our salvation to Paul! Thank God he went WEST! The church of today is mostly a Gentile church, physically speaking.

God planned it al he was getting Europe ready for two centuries. Firstly with Alexabder, he introduced a language known over the empire. Then he used the Romans to make roads all over the empire,enabling the word to spread quickly.

 

[iamlamad]

The whole reason for the cosmos is the redemption of billions of men and women. The first thing that God did before creating the cosmos was to set up His plan for the redemption of mankind. The whole universe of galaxies, stars, and planets is intricately designed to provide the perfect environment for mankind to live. The sun is in its mid-life where it is perfectly placed to support human and animal life. If it wasn't bright enough, it would be too cold, and if it got any brighter, we would all be burned up. The moon is in the optimal position to ensure that earth's atmosphere and water are not sucked out into space. Our Milky Way galaxy is uniquely formed and our solar system is in exactly the right place in it to support life. Anywhere else, and life would be impossible.

Therefore, once the last person in God's book of life is converted to Christ, then God's plan of redemption for mankind will be fulfilled, the dead in Christ will rise, and those who are alive will go up to meet the Lord in the air. Then the Great Tribulation will commence. After that Jesus will return in person with His angels and saints to start His 1000 year reign.

No one knows when the last person in God's book of life will be converted to Christ. The Apostles believed it was going to be in their lifetime, and Paul writing to the Thessalonians told them to be ready to expect the rapture at any time. Although the rapture could happen at any time, without warning, there are definite events that need to happen before Jesus comes in person. One event is all Jews from around the world will move to Israel. When there is a mass migration of Jews from all the countries of the world, then people will know that the final events leading up to the second coming of Jesus are happening.

I showed scripture for my answer.

Rev, 6:11 Each of them was given a white robe; and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow-servants should be reached, of their brothers who would be killed, just as they had been. (CJB)

What will cause one certain martyr to be that last martyr and fulfill the full number? The rapture of the church will end the church age and so cause a certain martyr to be killed as they were.

At the rapture, God is not through saving people. There will be tribulation saints.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I showed scripture for my answer.

Rev, 6:11 Each of them was given a white robe; and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow-servants should be reached, of their brothers who would be killed, just as they had been. (CJB)

What will cause one certain martyr to be that last martyr and fulfill the full number? The rapture of the church will end the church age and so cause a certain martyr to be killed as they were.

At the rapture, God is not through saving people. There will be tribulation saints.

The question is, in John's vision, where is all this taking place? Has John been transported from our material universe into heaven where God's throne is? If so, then he is no longer in a space-time dimension, but where there is no time. So we can't give a linear time line for the events shown to John while in heaven, because there is no linear time line there. We don't know where the spirits of these martyrs are. Maybe they are still in Paradise awaiting the resurrection of their glorified bodies. We don't know. We know that the multitude without number around the throne of God giving praise to Him has to be all the assembled saints after the rapture, but whether it is after the Tribulation, 1000 year reign, Great While Throne judgment, or not, we don't know, because in heaven where there is no linear time, all these events are happening at once. John is getting the full panorama of events, which are to be eventually played out, in the planned order, in our space-time dimension.

We are still in the church age. Believers are still being martyred right around the world. Once the last person in the Book of Life has been converted to Christ, the rapture will happen, resulting in no more Christian believers left in the world to be martyred. The Tribulation and the 1000 year rule is part of God's plan for the redemption of Israel, and not for the Church. It will be at that time that the remnant of Israel will be saved.

 

[iamlamad]

The question is, in John's vision, where is all this taking place? Has John been transported from our material universe into heaven where God's throne is? If so, then he is no longer in a space-time dimension, but where there is no time. So we can't give a linear time line for the events shown to John while in heaven, because there is no linear time line there. We don't know where the spirits of these martyrs are. Maybe they are still in Paradise awaiting the resurrection of their glorified bodies. We don't know. We know that the multitude without number around the throne of God giving praise to Him has to be all the assembled saints after the rapture, but whether it is after the Tribulation, 1000 year reign, Great While Throne judgment, or not, we don't know, because in heaven where there is no linear time, all these events are happening at once. John is getting the full panorama of events, which are to be eventually played out, in the planned order, in our space-time dimension.

We are still in the church age. Believers are still being martyred right around the world. Once the last person in the Book of Life has been converted to Christ, the rapture will happen, resulting in no more Christian believers left in the world to be martyred. The Tribulation and the 1000 year rule is part of God's plan for the redemption of Israel, and not for the Church. It will be at that time that the remnant of Israel will be saved.

Once the last person in the Book of Life has been converted to Christ, the rapture will happen

The Book of Life is for all people, all nations, all language groups. Without a doubt, all those conceived during the millennial reign of Christ will be added. Some will probably be blotted out later, when Satan is loosed.

The rapture, on the other hand, is tied by Paul's words to just before the start of the Day of the Lord and God's wrath.

Of course there is a linear timeline! The events of Revelation, of the 70th week happen down here. As we read through chapters 8 to chapter 16, we are walking through the 70th week in a very linear path (except for John's use of parentheses). John numbered the seals, the trumpets and the bowls for the proper sequence.

Where does wrath begin? At the 6th seal. According to Paul then, the rapture will take place just before the 6th seal start of God's wrath. This is then confirmed by John seeing the just-raptured church in heaven as that great crowd, too large to number. It is also confirmed by the fifth seal and the final church age martyr.

I agree, the tribulation is for the Jews: it is THEIR week.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Once the last person in the Book of Life has been converted to Christ, the rapture will happen

The Book of Life is for all people, all nations, all language groups. Without a doubt, all those conceived during the millennial reign of Christ will be added. Some will probably be blotted out later, when Satan is loosed.

The rapture, on the other hand, is tied by Paul's words to just before the start of the Day of the Lord and God's wrath.

Of course there is a linear timeline! The events of Revelation, of the 70th week happen down here. As we read through chapters 8 to chapter 16, we are walking through the 70th week in a very linear path (except for John's use of parentheses). John numbered the seals, the trumpets and the bowls for the proper sequence.

Where does wrath begin? At the 6th seal. According to Paul then, the rapture will take place just before the 6th seal start of God's wrath. This is then confirmed by John seeing the just-raptured church in heaven as that great crowd, too large to number. It is also confirmed by the fifth seal and the final church age martyr.

I agree, the tribulation is for the Jews: it is THEIR week.

The only people who will be left on earth will be the unconverted Gentiles and the Jews who have all returned to Israel. After the Tribulation, Jesus will return in person and will reign in Jerusalem on the throne of David for 1000 years. During that time, the Jews will be given the opportunity to embrace Christ. After that, the Gentile nations will gather together to wipe Israel off the map. They will end up fighting against Jesus Himself, and will be defeated and the birds of the air will eat the flesh of the dead corpses. Then the second resurrection of the unconverted dead will happen and they will immediately come before the Great White throne to be judged according to their works. The devil and his angels will be thrown into the lake of fire, along with all those who rejected Christ. That will be the point when all evil will have been erased, and then the new creation will take place along with the New Jerusalem descending from heaven.

The whole point of creation, and everything that has happened, along with the death and resurrection of Christ, the church age, and the second coming of Christ, is to eradicate evil, which came about when Lucifer tried to be equal to God and was ejected from heaven.