A question about the rapture

[JulieB67]

Hebrews 10:25 "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."

Another verse that tells us we are looking for "the day". We are to know the signs and seasons and to exhort one another more when we see it approaching. It's one "day" the day of the Lord/Christ.

Revelation 16:15 "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

Again, Christ comes as a thief. That is the analogy for the day of the Lord, not some pretrib rapture. Blessed is he that "watcheth.... Our garments are made up of our works.

 

[DavidPT]

except the rest of the church is now in Paradise waiting for the tribulation, the final harvest to be over.

How do you suppose they do that if they are still in mortal bodies the entire time?

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Obviously, no one alive or dead, other than Christ, can be in possession of an immortal body until the last trump sounds first. If the last trump is meaning during the alleged Pretrib rapture, well we can't apply that verse multiple times then. Obviously, there can't be a last trump happening twice at two different times.

This same change that happens to those that are asleep at the time, meaning physically dead, also happens to the saved that are alive and remain when the rapture takes place. Otherwise, how do those that are alive and remain put on immortality as well, if not via this same event recorded in 1 Corinthians 15:51-57? And once again, if we apply 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 to a Pretrib rapture, we can't apply that passage yet again to any events after great tribulation.

And if we don't apply that passage to a Pretrib rapture, this obviously indicates that the church is ascending to heaven in mortal bodies, not immortal bodies since that can't happen until the last trump. No matter how you look at it, unless one is being purposely intellectually dishonest, there is no way Pretribbers can argue their way out of this one.

Either they have to admit, if they insist Pretrib is true, the church ascends to heaven in mortal bodies since they can't ascend in immortal bodies if the last trump is still future to the Pretrib event. Or they have to admit 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 is meaning during the Pretrib rapture, therefore, making it impossible that the last trump can be meaning after great tribulation. At least per the latter, they would be ascending to heaven in immortal bodies. Who cares, right, if that contradicts the fact that the last trump is obviously meaning after great tribulation, not prior to it instead? What's important here, Pretrib is Biblical, period. None of these other things matter. So what if these other things debunk Pretrib? Who cares?

 

[dfw69]

Hebrews 10:25 "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."

In our case our day does indeed come for our rapture for we are the children of the day not to be confused with the day of the Lord in which He comes as thief in the night to earth

Another verse that tells us we are looking for "the day". We are to know the signs and seasons and to exhort one another more when we see it approaching. It's one "day" the day of the Lord/Christ.

It’s not ..There is day for our rapture in the air where 2 trumpets sound and we go up and there is the day of the Lords wrath upon the wicked in which He comes like a thief in the night

Revelation 16:15 "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

Spoken to the house of Israel in which He returns to them at His second coming
This warning is not for us Julie

Again, Christ comes as a thief. That is the analogy for the day of the Lord, not some pretrib rapture. Blessed is he that "watcheth.... Our garments are made up of our works.

That’s correct and the house of Israel are called to watch for His return

Our destination is heaven sister

Revelation reveals everything the house of Israel needs to know concerning the end of days and return of Christ to them ...And unless you can find the rapture as foretold and described by Paul for us written down somewhere in revelation, then it’s basically check mate and game over .

Our gathering is simply not found anywhere in revelation which means our gathering would have taken place before then …


The fact is there are 2 comings, one in the air and one to earth with 2 different outcomes for 2 different classes of people

The last trump that Paul mentioned refers to the last of 2 trumpets. It’s the first and the last trumpets that awakens the dead in Christ and transforms the living not to be confused with any other trumpets yet to sound in the end of days

 

[JulieB67]

In our case our day does indeed come for our rapture for we are the children of the day not to be confused with the day of the Lord in which He comes as thief in the night to earth

The thief in the night analogy is given because it's such a suprise to many people who are thinking peace and safety and then bam destruction.

This warning is not for us Julie

Paul preached as well about the day of the Lord to the Thessalonian/Christians in Greece.

.And unless you can find the rapture as foretold and described by Paul for us written down somewhere in revelation, then it’s basically check mate and game over .

Naturally there is not a pretrib rapture described in Revelation because there is no such thing. Paul taught about the day the Lord and nailed down the timing. And the day of the Lord is certainly discussed in Revelation. Heaven must retain him until then. That is biblical as well.

Our gathering is simply not found anywhere in revelation which means our gathering would have taken place before then …

It is in Revelation, our gathering back together happens when Christ returns.

And what you are stating does not make sense when it comes to verses like this. These people are Christians, their names are already written in the book of life of the lamb/Christ.

Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

And Christ is addressing Christians in the letters to the churches. He's telling many of them that labour in "his name" meaning they are Christians they need to repent of their sins and faults, etc.

Revelation is to all people -

Revelation 10:11 "And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings."

The last trump that Paul mentioned refers to the last of 2 trumpets. It’s the first and the last trumpets that awakens the dead in Christ and transforms the living not to be confused with any other trumpets yet to sound in the end of days

There are 7 trumps. The last is referred to as the "farthest out"

If one is just talking about 2 trumps you would say first and second for the most part. At the last trump which is the trump of God is when Christ returns and that is the 7th trump. "All" are changed at that point. That's what's written and that's what I will continue to believe.

And really, can we even apply some common sense when it comes to believing in a doctrine that would render many dead, not even giving them a chance to repent or become saved because there would be mass chaos all over the world There would be deaths in the air, on the ground, you name it. That's certainly not going to happen. When the Lord returns in reality many will have bought into the fake peace and safety that antichrist/Satan brings. And that's why the Lord states he returns at an hour many do not expect. That's because they will believe he's already returned. If a pretrib rapture were true than there goes Satan disguised as an angel of light to fool the world. He will pretend to be Savior to the world and then bam the true Christ returns. Many will be praying for mountains to fall on them. They're that ashamed. We are to wait on the true one and not fall away to the fake if it should happen in our lifetime.

 

[Marilyn C]

The thief in the night analogy is given because it's such a suprise to many people who are thinking peace and safety and then bam destruction.


Paul preached as well about the day of the Lord to the Thessalonian/Christians in Greece.


Naturally there is not a pretrib rapture described in Revelation because there is no such thing. Paul taught about the day the Lord and nailed down the timing. And the day of the Lord is certainly discussed in Revelation. Heaven must retain him until then. That is biblical as well.


It is in Revelation, our gathering back together happens when Christ returns.

And what you are stating does not make sense when it comes to verses like this. These people are Christians, their names are already written in the book of life of the lamb/Christ.

Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

And Christ is addressing Christians in the letters to the churches. He's telling many of them that labour in "his name" meaning they are Christians they need to repent of their sins and faults, etc.

Revelation is to all people -

Revelation 10:11 "And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings."

There are 7 trumps. The last is referred to as the "farthest out"

If one is just talking about 2 trumps you would say first and second for the most part. At the last trump which is the trump of God is when Christ returns and that is the 7th trump. "All" are changed at that point. That's what's written and that's what I will continue to believe.

And really, can we even apply some common sense when it comes to believing in a doctrine that would render many dead, not even giving them a chance to repent or become saved because there would be mass chaos all over the world There would be deaths in the air, on the ground, you name it. That's certainly not going to happen. When the Lord returns in reality many will have bought into the fake peace and safety that antichrist/Satan brings. And that's why the Lord states he returns at an hour many do not expect. That's because they will believe he's already returned. If a pretrib rapture were true than there goes Satan disguised as an angel of light to fool the world. He will pretend to be Savior to the world and then bam the true Christ returns. Many will be praying for mountains to fall on them. They're that ashamed. We are to wait on the true one and not fall away to the fake if it should happen in our lifetime.

The 7 trumpets are to the nations and Israel in the trib, whereas the last trump is to the B/C pre-trib. it is the voice of the Lord, as shown in Rev. 1: 10 & 4: 1. It will be the last time that the voice of the Lord will be speaking to us in that way. From then on we will be with the Lord and He will speak to us intimately.

 

[dfw69]

The thief in the night analogy is given because it's such a suprise to many people who are thinking peace and safety and then bam destruction.

Yes this takes place at His return to earth for the house of Israel

Our gathering is to go up to heaven

Paul preached as well about the day of the Lord to the Thessalonian/Christians in Greece.

Yes Paul taught them about the day of the Lord to counter those that were stirring up the church that it was at hand … but it was not ….

Naturally there is not a pretrib rapture described in Revelation because there is no such thing. Paul taught about the day the Lord and nailed down the timing. And the day of the Lord is certainly discussed in Revelation. Heaven must retain him until then. That is biblical as well.

No Julie your missing my point ..naturally the rapture as described by Paul is not found in Revelation because Revelation speaks of the day of the Lord and since the Rapture is not found written anywhere in Revelation then You must conclude that Paul is not a prophet or the our rapture must take place at a different time and season

It is in Revelation, our gathering back together happens when Christ returns.

No it’s not… where in Revelation do you see Christ appear in the sky and a trumpets sounds and then the dead (in Christ) raise up imperishable and rise up towards the sky and then where is the last trump that sounds that transforms a person immortal and rises up to meet the Lord in the sky at His second return if indeed it takes place at His second ?

My point is that it does not take place at His second coming but will have taken place before His second coming to earth

There is the mention of 7 trumpets sounding off and the results of its judgements so where is the soundings of 2 trumpets and Paul’s results as He describes found in revelation hmmm?

To put these 2 separate events and separate times and season together as the day of the Lord is simply false doctrine


[QUOTEAnd what you are stating does not make sense when it comes to verses like this. These people are Christians, their names are already written in the book of life of the lamb/Christ.

Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.[/QUOTE]

Your bringing up another point and yes they are believers in Christ but not quite Christians…. How you may ask?

For it’s written of them as keeping the commandments of God and testifying of Jesus… right?

What commandments do they keep? What faith are they standing on?
Is it different from Christianity?

And what are they testifying concerning Jesus ? The good news? Maybe something else?

It’s not stated what their message is that causes them to be cut off from the society of those days . All we know is Jesus will not be a popular subject because the falling away from that type of thinking. Jesus preaching will be rejected as truth.
The Age to come will be Antichrist

So who are they?

Christians do not follow the 10 commandments nor enter into the mosaic covenant by circumcising into the law nor testifying of His return for us to Jerusalem where a kingdoms is established by Christ . We are not seeking an earthly kingdom

A specific class of people seek such things as these mention above and a specific class of people seek other things

Christ house is divided with those seeking a Father from above to take us to heaven for our faith in Him and a class of people seek an earthly kingdom …These 2 classes will have different outcomes concerning their faith

And Christ is addressing Christians in the letters to the churches. He's telling many of them that labour in "his name" meaning they are Christians they need to repent of their sins and faults, etc.

yes true but those 7 churches had different reproaches, different reprimands ,some had different outcomes for their faith and some had different rewards for their faith.

Revelation is to all people -

Revelation 10:11 "And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings."

True God wants everyone to know that His wrath is coming upon those that deny His Son and persecute his followers who put their faith on Him

There are 7 trumps. The last is referred to as the "farthest out"

This is where so many of you guys err ..Those 7 trumpets reveal their purpose and what becomes of their judgements at the sounding of them. Yet Paul’s 2 trumpets reveal their purpose and that account is not found in Revelation. Why?..because the Rapture would have already taken place .

If one is just talking about 2 trumps you would say first and second for the most part. At the last trump which is the trump of God is when Christ returns and that is the 7th trump. "All" are changed at that point. That's what's written and that's what I will continue to believe.

The scripture is not written in English the first and last trump have a Jewish meaning or some heavenly meaning and we know Jesus is described many times as the first and last .. It’s the First and last letter of the alphabet.. it’s the sign of God ..The trumpets First and Last could very well be referring to the that . That the first trumpet is called Alpha and the last trumpet is called Omega

Alpha awakes the dead in Christ
Omega transforms into the children of God

And really, can we even apply some common sense when it comes to believing in a doctrine that would render many dead, not even giving them a chance to repent or become saved because there would be mass chaos all over the world There would be deaths in the air, on the ground, you name it.

Yes let’s apply some common sense ..there will be no chaos when the rapture happens..

as for a chance of repentance , who said there will be no chance to repent? No one truly knows how the rapture is going to take place but I know it won’t be a surprise or sudden disaster or sudden disappearance so that people are caught off guard

If chaos does indeed breaks out at the time of the Rapture it won’t be created by God … man is very capable with their technology to create chaos …

That's certainly not going to happen.

Don’t be so sure

When the Lord returns in reality many will have bought into the fake peace and safety that antichrist/Satan brings.

I don’t believe that is correct… the sudden destruction that comes after they say peace and safety could refer to different things

The peace and safety could refer to a time that the state of the world will be just before the opening of the first seal and the rise of Antichrist which will bring sudden destruction such as war famine plague and hell and death . Then the 6th seal announces the wrath of the lamb 7 trumpets blow snd 7 vails are poured out

Or it could refer to the death of the 2 witnesses when they rejoice over their deaths as if they thing the victory is won over the lamb ..but i believe it’s the first version that’s correct

And that's why the Lord states he returns at an hour many do not expect. That's because they will believe he's already returned.

no sis that is not how it’s going to go down ..the antichrist will claim to be God not an Jesus imposter and the false prophet will most likely claim to be Elijah

See the great deception or strong delusion is the belief that a man somehow convinces the fallen Israelites that He is God .. Paul even testified that this person claims to be God even sits in the temple of God as God .. He claims to be the Alpha and Omega

Now the true Israelites who are being killed off or cut off are probably going to testify that Jesus is …the true alpha and omega yet to come so the battle is set between the 2

One will show technical power even calling down fire … the other real power from heaven and the signs are revealed how they will be manifested

If a pretrib rapture were true than there goes Satan disguised as an angel of light to fool the world.

It is true satan cannot resurrect the dead in Christ satan cannot transform us into the children of God satan cannot lead us to heaven to live with the Father only Jesus is able to exodus us out of the powers of this world


[QUOTEHe will pretend to be Savior to the world and then bam the true Christ returns. [/QUOTE]not quite ..the signs mentioned in rev will be a call to repentance

Many will be praying for mountains to fall on them. They're that ashamed.

I think they will be afraid knowing the judgment has come and their hands are dirty from the murders and crimes committed against the Lords annointed

We are to wait on the true one and not fall away to the fake if it should happen in our lifetime.

it’s not …a copycat? maybe … but the real deal is after the coming false messianic age

 

[JulieB67]

Yes let’s apply some common sense ..there will be no chaos when the rapture happens..

as for a chance of repentance , who said there will be no chance to repent? No one truly knows how the rapture is going to take place but I know it won’t be a surprise or sudden disaster or sudden disappearance so that people are caught off guard

Really? You don't think deaths all over the world will not cause chaos? If a pretrib rapture were true Christian pilots would be gone causing many airplanes to drop, drivers on the road would be gone causing mass pile ups, Christian doctors disappearing in an operating room and the list goes on and on. That is just not going to happen. I can't even believe I once thought that doctrine were true. It's just not biblical. If it were I certainly would believe because I used to believe it when I was taught that instead of studying for myself to show myself approved.

Paul’s 2 trumpets

Paul talks about the last trump as does Christ when he states trump of God. That is the 7th (God's number) and the last as Paul states. There's nothing in the bible that separates the trumps for two separate people.

No one truly knows how the rapture is going to take place

Thankfully we know all about Christ's return. The disciples ask for the signs and he gives them. That's what we watch for. You believe this doesn't involve Christians but the disciples are asking him about his return privately. He starts with the same warning that Paul gives out later. They both state do not be deceived by any means. It's that important.

 

[dfw69]

Really? You don't think deaths all over the world will not cause chaos? If a pretrib rapture were true Christian pilots would be gone causing many airplanes to drop, drivers on the road would be gone causing mass pile ups, Christian doctors disappearing in an operating room and the list goes on and on. That is just not going to happen.

That is correct it’s not going to happen that way …There is no sudden disappearance of saints as they teach …

They get that from the twinkling of an eye scripture but Paul was referring to the transformation from flesh to spirit that takes place in an instant not a vanishing away …

Our bodies will be like Christ when he arose … he was able to eat and be handled …. Yet vanish at will

the rapture is going to be more controlled with no chaos

I can't even believe I once thought that doctrine were true. It's just not biblical.

Well as a baby Christian I too believe it when I first learned of it and I wanted to know more and through study I’ve found a different view that makes sense

If it were I certainly would believe because I used to believe it when I was taught that instead of studying for myself to show myself approved.

You came to another conclusion than mine but I find many flaws in your view that convince me that it’s a wrong view

Paul talks about the last trump as does Christ when he states trump of God. That is the 7th (God's number) and the last as Paul states. There's nothing in the bible that separates the trumps for two separate people.

Actually there is as I been explaining to you in our conversations above

You are not going to be raptured as Paul taught if you believe and wait till the end of a last trumpet at the end of the end of days . Paul’s rapture up to meet Jesus in the sky in the clouds is not found in revelation..

You will however experience a resurrection sometime in the last days before Jesus returns to earth if you are martyred for keeping the commandments of God and testify of Jesus as revelation stated and you will be seen in heaven after you have been resurrected and you will return with Him when He comes to avenge yourself against those that hold to the doctrines that cause you to be martyred

But Paul’s rapture will not take place at the end of day

Thankfully we know all about Christ's return. The disciples ask for the signs and he gives them. That's what we watch for. You believe this doesn't involve Christians but the disciples are asking him about his return privately. He starts with the same warning that Paul gives out later. They both state do not be deceived by any means. It's that important.

Yes Jesus answered the questions concerning His return to the disciples but you forgot that Jesus in John 14 mentioned the rapture to them during the Seder of the New Testament

During this supper new promises were made Julie to the disciples and to everyone who believe their testimony that Jesus was the son of God and promised messiah of the Jews and Paul explained in detail How Jesus would come for us to take us to His Fathers house where many abodes already await us …

“If it was not so I would not have told you”

 

[JulieB67]

.the antichrist will claim to be God not an Jesus imposter

Christ states if they say Christ is here, believe it not. Revelation states he has a horn like a lamb (Christ) but spoke as a dragon (devil)

That's what's the gospel armour is for- to fight the wiles of the devil. That means trickery and to be able to stand in that evil day. Paul is talking to Christians. He also states Satan will be disguised as an angel of light. Our true angel of light is of course Christ. That's how Satan will be able to fool the entire world. And you don't don a disguise unless eyes will be on you.

Again, I don't think we're going to agree on this. But to me, Satan and his gang will arrive performing miracles and wonders, destroy wonderfully by peace (Daniel), there will be a falling away. This means Christians because the unsaved have nothing to fall away from. We know apostasy is departing from the truth. And God will send the strong delusion because they would rather accept a lie then the love of the truth.

That's why when Christ returns he will turn away people who claimed to be Christians and he states depart I never knew you. They've been in bed with antichrist. Spiritually impregnated if you will and that's the analogy of the Foolish Virgins as well. They were waiting on the bridegroom as well to begin with but in the end fell away.

 

[dfw69]

Christ states if they say Christ is here, believe it not. Revelation states he has a horn like a lamb (Christ) but spoke as a dragon (devil)

Yes and it may be so … but I think it just means someone claiming to be the promised messiah and not necessarily someone claiming to be jesus

That’s what's the gospel armour is for- to fight the wiles of the devil. That means trickery and to be able to stand in that evil day. Paul is talking to Christians. He also states Satan will be disguised as an angel of light. Our true angel of light is of course Christ. That's how Satan will be able to fool the entire world. And you don't don a disguise unless eyes will be on you.

I don’t know how he will disguised himself as an angel of light

Again, I don't think we're going to agree on this. But to me, Satan and his gang will arrive performing miracles and wonders, destroy wonderfully by peace (Daniel), there will be a falling away. This means Christians because the unsaved have nothing to fall away from. We know apostasy is departing from the truth. And God will send the strong delusion because they would rather accept a lie then the love of the truth.

yep and how this will take place, you and I would probably disagree on that too

That's why when Christ returns he will turn away people who claimed to be Christians and he states depart I never knew you.

not quite… Those who keep the commandments of God and yet testify of Jesus during the false messianic age to come will be persecuted and killed off … All that will be left are the Israelites who will become as the sands of the sea but unfortunately only a remnant will be saved.. most of these fallen Israelites will go after the antichrist who seeks to wage war against the true messiah who is about to return to Israel and those elect of Israel who loved and visited those that were persecuted will be saved

They've been in bed with antichrist.

Christians are not antichrist, we believe in the good news and we believe in the Father and Son doctrine… Antichrist do not

Spiritually impregnated if you will and that's the analogy of the Foolish Virgins as well.

How can they be virgins yet impregnated?That would imply committing adultery or fornication and thus no longer virgins

They were waiting on the bridegroom as well to begin with but in the end fell away.

The 10 virgins do not represent the church who are the children of Jesus according to the faith . The 10 virgins represent the 10 tribes of Israel


If this ends our conversation thanks for your responses …

 

[Timtofly]

How do you suppose they do that if they are still in mortal bodies the entire time?

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Obviously, no one alive or dead, other than Christ, can be in possession of an immortal body until the last trump sounds first. If the last trump is meaning during the alleged Pretrib rapture, well we can't apply that verse multiple times then. Obviously, there can't be a last trump happening twice at two different times.

This same change that happens to those that are asleep at the time, meaning physically dead, also happens to the saved that are alive and remain when the rapture takes place. Otherwise, how do those that are alive and remain put on immortality as well, if not via this same event recorded in 1 Corinthians 15:51-57? And once again, if we apply 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 to a Pretrib rapture, we can't apply that passage yet again to any events after great tribulation.

And if we don't apply that passage to a Pretrib rapture, this obviously indicates that the church is ascending to heaven in mortal bodies, not immortal bodies since that can't happen until the last trump. No matter how you look at it, unless one is being purposely intellectually dishonest, there is no way Pretribbers can argue their way out of this one.

Either they have to admit, if they insist Pretrib is true, the church ascends to heaven in mortal bodies since they can't ascend in immortal bodies if the last trump is still future to the Pretrib event. Or they have to admit 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 is meaning during the Pretrib rapture, therefore, making it impossible that the last trump can be meaning after great tribulation. At least per the latter, they would be ascending to heaven in immortal bodies. Who cares, right, if that contradicts the fact that the last trump is obviously meaning after great tribulation, not prior to it instead? What's important here, Pretrib is Biblical, period. None of these other things matter. So what if these other things debunk Pretrib? Who cares?

No such thing as an immortal body. Where is immortal found in this verse: 2 Corinthians 5:1?

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Of course the thief on the cross had a permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise that day. Those who came out of their graves at the time Jesus declared it is finished, had permanent incorruptible physical bodies, and they ascended with Jesus on Sunday morning including Lazarus. That was every soul waiting in Abraham's bosom from all over the earth. That permanent incorruptible physical body is waiting in Paradise for the soul when it leaves Adam's temporal corruptible flesh. God gives the soul a new physical body. The one you are born with from Adam returns to dust.

This body is not made immortal. No verse teaches that contrary to 2 Corinthians 5.

The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. That is before any of the Trumpets in Revelation have sounded. Jesus and the angels are on the earth when the 7th Seal is opened. That is when the angels bring those physically alive to Jerusalem and Jesus declares them a sheep or a goat. The sheep are given permanent incorruptible physical bodies, and changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The goats are cast alive into the LOF, and their names removed from the Lamb's book of life.

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

Matthew 25:31-46 is taking place during the first 6 Trumpets. Trumpets were used to call Israel to assembly. Not sure why God sending out 7 angels with 7 Trumpets would be for anything else but the judgment and refinement process of Israel where only a third of those Israelites alive on earth will be spared and given eternal life.

Does the last trumpet mean the Trumpet used last or the last time that Trumpet is used? Numbers 10:1-4

"And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them, all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with one trumpet, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee."

There were only 2 Trumpets. Which one was the Last Trumpet? John does not say a Trumpet sounds any where in Revelation 19. If you think a Trumpet is necessary, then that rules out Revelation 19 as the Second Coming. Jesus did mention a Trumpet, but never called it the last Trumpet.

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

John does not name the 7 angels with the 7 Trumpets. If Gabriel announced the first coming, he could be one of the angels. Perhaps even the 7th angel. Now Gabriel could still be the archangel who sounds a Trumpet and yes even in Revelation 19. But John symbolizes the angels coming to earth as stars at the 6th Seal, not at the battle of Armageddon. So the angel with the 7th Trumpet could still blow it at the 6th Seal. Yet still be the 7th Trumpet to sound after the first 6 angels and the 7 Thunders are heard. So it is not the last time Gabriel sounds, but the Sound of the last Trumpet could also be heard at the 6th Seal.

When the 7th Trumpet sounds in the book of Revelation it is to signal that the only ones left would be those who are in the winepress of God's wrath and the tribulation is over. The GT being the final harvest during the first 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. The sheep and wheat of the final harvest don't enter Paradise to begin with. They are the remnant of Adam's redeemed flesh, given new permanent incorruptible physical bodies, and they are the first generation of the Day of the Lord, the millennial kingdom.

The 7th Trumpet declares Jesus is now King of every nation, because the sheep and the wheat are redeemed and represent every nation on earth. All the living now are in Christ. Because the dead are about to be sent through the winepress of God's wrath. That is the end of the final harvest.

 

[Timtofly]

Our gathering is simply not found anywhere in revelation which means our gathering would have taken place before then …

You can speak for yourself. God states you are a soul under the alter. If not, you have not been included in the redeemed. Under the alter is symbolic of the entire called out assembly both OT and NT. Under the alter is not just persecuted believers. Being killed is symbolic of the soul leaving Adam's dead corruptible flesh. As lambs slain out of the flesh, they are under the alter as redeemed souls. They are not literally souls under an alter. They have had permanent incorruptible physical bodies since they left Abraham's bosom at the Cross, or every time they left Adam's flesh since then. The rapture is the last group to leave Adam's dead corruptible flesh behind on the earth to return to dust.

The 5th Seal is the entire church body glorified, as symbolized by the putting on of robes of white. That is the putting on of immortality. That is the putting on of our spirit. The final redemption of a son of God: soul, body, and spirit. That happens at the Second Coming. The 5th and 6th Seal is instantaneous. It is the meeting in the air.

John uses symbolism to make the point that Jesus did in the Olivet Discourse and Paul did about the Second Coming.

 

[dfw69]

You can speak for yourself. God states you are a soul under the alter.

Timtofly those souls are martyrs for keeping the commandments and testifying of Jesus class of people not the church. Their resurrection and ascension is not revealed in Revelation nor how it is going to take place nor time nor place … all that is mentioned of them is they must wait till the number of martyrs is compete
These are the tribulation saints ….they return with Jesus when he returns to judge Israel

If not, you have not been included in the redeemed.

That is not what the good news teaches

Under the alter is symbolic of the entire called out assembly both OT and NT.

Symbolism? What proof do you have???

Under the alter is not just persecuted believers.

Don’t change what is clearly written in the text

Being killed is symbolic of the soul leaving Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

More symbolic Mumbo jumbo

As lambs slain out of the flesh, they are under the alter as redeemed souls. They are not literally souls under an alter. They have had permanent incorruptible physical bodies since they left Abraham's bosom at the Cross, or every time they left Adam's flesh since then. The rapture is the last group to leave Adam's dead corruptible flesh behind on the earth to return to dust.

I’m not going to entertain symbolic nonsense sorry

The 5th Seal is the entire church body glorified, as symbolized by the putting on of robes of white. That is the putting on of immortality. That is the putting on of our spirit. The final redemption of a son of God: soul, body, and spirit. That happens at the Second Coming. The 5th and 6th Seal is instantaneous. It is the meeting in the air.

John uses symbolism to make the point that Jesus did in the Olivet Discourse and Paul did about the Second Coming.

sorry buddy but this type of thinking is not for me …and I simply find no truth in this ..

It’s like swallowing camels

 

[JulieB67]

The 10 virgins do not represent the church who are the children of Jesus according to the faith . The 10 virgins represent the 10 tribes of Israe

They are definitely Christians. (some wise, some foolish) They are waiting on the "bridegroom" That is definitely Christ.

Matthew 25:1 "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and sent forth to meet the bridegroom."


Matthew 25:10 "And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut."

Matthew 25:11 "Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, 'lord, lord, open to us."

Matthew 25:12 "But he answered and said, 'Verily I say unto you, I know you not.'

Matthew 25:13 "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."

This all has to do with the fact that spiritually we are to remain chaste/pure virgins until the return of Christ. The question is, if one doesn't remain a pure virgin what does that mean in a spiritual sense? It means they have worshipped another. And we know another one will be here before the true Christ returns. That's the warning that Christ gives and Paul does as well.

 

[dfw69]

They are definitely Christians. (some wise, some foolish) They are waiting on the "bridegroom" That is definitely Christ.

Matthew 25:1 "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and sent forth to meet the bridegroom."


Matthew 25:10 "And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut."

Matthew 25:11 "Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, 'lord, lord, open to us."

Matthew 25:12 "But he answered and said, 'Verily I say unto you, I know you not.'

Matthew 25:13 "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."

Your thinking like an Israelite awaiting a kingdom on earth

I’m not an Israelite …I’m a Christian ..one who believes that He is returning to appear in the sky to sound 2 trumpets as it is written to take us to His Father’s House in heaven where many abodes already exist as it is written

This all has to do with the fact that spiritually we are to remain chaste/pure virgins until the return of Christ. The question is, if one doesn't remain a pure virgin what does that mean in a spiritual sense? It means they have worshipped another. And we know another one will be here before the true Christ returns. That's the warning that Christ gives and Paul does as well.

This is not going to take place in our lifetime not until 2 things takes place

But again your thinking like an Israelite

How do you remain a pure virgin?

What do you do that qualifies you as a pure virgin ?

What makes you wise and different from other virgins who are not wise?

I’ve ask questions before and I don’t expect you to answer them ..They seem to just get ignored just like so many of my past questions I have asked others that remain unanswered from those who believe they are the true children of Israel

See I believe many are being led astray by an old fashioned tactic.. That a plan is in motion to seduce by these type of doctrines created by mystery Babylon to seduce the saints away from the pure gospel to accept another gospel which is in fact no gospel at all …. In the end those who are seduced by such teachings will end up turning away from that too to end up following another doctrine and in the end be worse than before …

This is the falling away from the faith that may be in motion and has been in motion for some time but will have greater momentum due to false teachers false prophets and technological advances and false messianic age to come

It’s spiritual warfare against Christ in high places

 

[JulieB67]

What do you do that qualifies you as a pure virgin ?

Someone who hasn't fallen away to the first/fake Christ on the scene.

What makes you wise and different from other virgins who are not wise?

Someone who waits for the true Christ. That's what most of the warnings are about. We are to watch for the signs that both Christ and Paul lay out.

Paul is giving the same implication and he is most definitely talking to Christians.


II Corinthians 11:2 "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

Chaste means pure.

And once again, the virgins, all 10 are waiting on the "bridegroom" So all are in fact Christians but some are wise, some are foolish.

 

[Douggg]

dfw69 wrote: Our gathering is simply not found anywhere in revelation which means our gathering would have taken place before then …

Julie867 wrote: They are definitely Christians. (some wise, some foolish) They are waiting on the "bridegroom" That is definitely Christ.

dfw69 is right about the rapture. Julie867 is right about the virgins. some wise, some foolish.

 

[Douggg]

"And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them, all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with one trumpet, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee."

There were only 2 Trumpets. Which one was the Last Trumpet? John does not say a Trumpet sounds any where in Revelation 19. If you think a Trumpet is necessary, then that rules out Revelation 19 as the Second Coming. Jesus did mention a Trumpet, but never called it the last Trumpet.

Two trumpets.

1Thesslanonians4:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


1st Trumpet. The trumpet of God in heaven sounds, the command of the Father - Jesus the very Son of God then descends from heaven with a shout. - the dead in Christ, come forth from the grave (i.e. an expression for bodies reconstitued) into eternal, everlasting. incorruptible bodies. And the living in Christ translated into like bodies.

2nd Trumpet. The voice of the archangel - Jesus - with all of the power of the Lord God Almighty calls to resurrected dead and the translated living "come up hither" (prefigured in Revelation when John hears the voice that sounded like trumpet). And the rapture to heaven, will have taken place - gone in the twinkling of an eye.

 

[dfw69]

Someone who hasn't fallen away to the first/fake Christ on the scene.

Someone who waits for the true Christ. That's what most of the warnings are about. We are to watch for the signs that both Christ and Paul lay out.

Paul is giving the same implication and he is most definitely talking to Christians.


II Corinthians 11:2 "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

Chaste means pure.

And once again, the virgins, all 10 are waiting on the "bridegroom" So all are in fact Christians but some are wise, some are foolish.

what do you suppose happens to the foolish ones in your theory?

Also you seem convince a false messiah comes claiming to be Jesus…how do you suppose he will deceive the foolish ones ?Do you have some wisdom for the foolish ones? We know not to take his mark which is what in your opinion?

Who will be this Jesus messiah type that Christian’s will seek Him over the real one because they do not recognize Him? I mean do you have an idea of how this plays out?

 

[dfw69]

Two trumpets.

1Thesslanonians4:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


1st Trumpet. The trumpet of God in heaven sounds, the command of the Father - Jesus the very Son of God then descends from heaven with a shout. - the dead in Christ, come forth from the grave (i.e. an expression for bodies reconstitued) into eternal, everlasting. incorruptible bodies. And the living in Christ translated into like bodies.

2nd Trumpet. The voice of the archangel - Jesus - with all of the power of the Lord God Almighty calls to resurrected dead and the translated living "come up hither" (prefigured in Revelation when John hears the voice that sounded like trumpet). And the rapture to heaven, will have taken place - gone in the twinkling of an eye.

Hi Douggg ….The living are change at the sound of the second trumpet (last trump) and it is the the change that takes place at a twinkle of an eye …Our departure from earth does not take place at a twinkle’s eye…..Paul does not teach that… That thought is an assumption from someone who did not read the scripture correctly