A question about the rapture

[Douggg]

Hi Douggg ….The living are change at the sound of the second trumpet (last trump) and it is the the change that takes place at a twinkle of an eye …Our departure from earth does not take place at a twinkle’s eye…..Paul does not teach that… That thought is an assumption from someone who did not read the scripture correctly

I read this verse at time of the last trumpet, when it will take place in history.... the dead in Christ are raised first, and in the same moment the living in Christ changed. And immediately the last trumpet sounds, and in the twinkling of an eye gone, taken with Jesus to heaven.

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The point is, no matter which way a person decides to interpret it, there is not going to be a significant amount of time passing between the resurrection of the dead in Christ and departure from this earth of both the dead and the living in Christ.

 

[dfw69]

I read this verse at time of the last trumpet, when it will take place in history.... the dead in Christ are raised first, and in the same moment the living in Christ changed. And immediately the last trumpet sounds, and in the twinkling of an eye gone, taken with Jesus to heaven.

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The point is, no matter which way a person decides to interpret it, there is not going to be a significant amount of time passing between the resurrection of the dead in Christ and departure from this earth of both the dead and the living in Christ.

I have to disagree with you …there’s no reason to assume a sudden disappearance and then (I might add) chaos takes place afterwards …that’s not biblical…

plus there is no reason to believe the two soundings of the two trumpets takes place on the same day .. not that it couldn’t… but it’s possible they can be days apart from each other …

And I stand on the fact that the 7 year tribulation and all of the revelation events that are to take place will not take place right after the rapture… that too is just not biblical … that there could be a gap between the rapture and the day of the Lord

And in between the gap occurs the false messianic age … which is the falling away from the faith that will be given the day of the Lord to end its false reign

 

[Douggg]

And I stand on the fact that the 7 year tribulation and all of the revelation events that are to take place will not take place right after the rapture… that too is just not biblical … that there could be a gap between the rapture and the day of the Lord

dfw69, you are using some wrong terminology. No 7 year tribulation. Instead 7 year, 70th week.

The Day of the Lord begins with the ToD act by the Antichrist.

The window for the rapture/resurrection is in blue on this chart...

 

[dfw69]

dfw69, you are using some wrong terminology. No 7 year tribulation. Instead 7 year, 70th week.

Daniels 70th week will not take place right after the rapture but there is a gap in between with the false messianic age filling up the hole

The Day of the Lord begins with the ToD act by the Antichrist.

Though the first seal is open by Christ that releases a rider on a white horse which could be the strong delusion sent by God does not necessary mean the day of the Lord has begun … It begins at the opening of the 6th seal as revelation tells

Now you seem to believe that this signing of the 7 year covenant is the beginning of the day of the Lord but that goes against Paul teachings about how things unfold.

The day of the Lord does not come until 2 things takes place first … the falling away and man of sin is revealed who comes claiming to be the God of the Jews ….

So the man of sin is revealed first before the day of the Lord begins

The window for the rapture/resurrection is in blue on this chart...

View attachment 333603

I believe the timeline should read like this

Rapture

False messianic age (false peace and safety)

Daniel 70 week begins with the confirming the covenant (opening of the first seal)

Wrath of God/Lamb begins (day of the Lord begins with the opening of the 6th seal)

 

[Timtofly]

Timtofly those souls are martyrs for keeping the commandments and testifying of Jesus class of people not the church. Their resurrection and ascension is not revealed in Revelation nor how it is going to take place nor time nor place … all that is mentioned of them is they must wait till the number of martyrs is compete
These are the tribulation saints ….they return with Jesus when he returns to judge Israel

That is not what the good news teaches

Symbolism? What proof do you have???

Don’t change what is clearly written in the text

More symbolic Mumbo jumbo

I’m not going to entertain symbolic nonsense sorry

sorry buddy but this type of thinking is not for me …and I simply find no truth in this ..

It’s like swallowing camels

It does not say martyrs either.

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

Alter and slain are symbolic. What is slain on an alter? Lambs are slain in sacrifice. The alter comes from the OT anyways. There is no alter in the NT. The NT was the Cross. Your symbolism of martyrdom means only those martyred are redeemed. How does that work out for those raptured alive, if they are not martyred? How does that work out for all those who die of natural causes? They are not redeemed?

This is not martyrdom. This is language involving the sacrifice of human life. All redeemed souls have to crucify the flesh, and experience the second birth, and ultimately leave Adam's dead corruptible flesh which returns to dust. I guess you need to toss out the majority of Paul's writings as well, as they are full of symbolic terms.

Your martyrdom is added opinion to the text, out of context, and way short of the mark.

"And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

If this is every person ever martyred, would not most of those who killed them, already be suffering punishment in sheol? Why would the dead in sheol be judged? What is the point of taking it all out on the living who they never even met. This is pointing out vengeance on those still enjoying sin and disobedience. Those who did not crucify Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

I agree the church has to wait until the final harvest is complete, and all of Adam's dead corruptible flesh is destroyed. The church will even wait in Paradise for the whole millennium.

 

[Timtofly]

Two trumpets.

1Thesslanonians4:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


1st Trumpet. The trumpet of God in heaven sounds, the command of the Father - Jesus the very Son of God then descends from heaven with a shout. - the dead in Christ, come forth from the grave (i.e. an expression for bodies reconstitued) into eternal, everlasting. incorruptible bodies. And the living in Christ translated into like bodies.

2nd Trumpet. The voice of the archangel - Jesus - with all of the power of the Lord God Almighty calls to resurrected dead and the translated living "come up hither" (prefigured in Revelation when John hears the voice that sounded like trumpet). And the rapture to heaven, will have taken place - gone in the twinkling of an eye.

Since God hands out His 7 Trumpets to 7 angels. Why would that archangel not be one of them? But has already sounded for one event. Now 7 sound for a different event. Why not have Gabriel sound for these events, as he also announced the first coming of Jesus to those on the earth?

Certainly you have way more offbeat opinions about human kings, to nitpick on what angels do certain things.

Beside those in Paradise don't need Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They already have God's permanent incorruptible flesh. Only those on earth need to change out of Adam's clothing. They come from Paradise and meet those coming from earth, somewhere in the middle. Then the whole group is glorified, putting on the spirit, a robe of white.

 

[Douggg]

Now you seem to believe that this signing of the 7 year covenant is the beginning of the day of the Lord but that goes against Paul teachings about how things unfold.

No, that is not what I think.

The confirming of the covenant begins the 70th week.

About 3 years into the 70th, the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act - which triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord. As I show on my chart.

 

[Douggg]

Wrath of God/Lamb begins (day of the Lord begins with the opening of the 6th seal)

The 6th seal takes place near the very end of the 70th week. The wrath of the Lamb, on behalf of the martyred great tribulation saints, takes place the day of Jesus's return..

The 6th seal, I show in the lower right hand corner of the chart. The 6th event is when the sign of the Son of Man appears in heaven.

dfw69, what you could try to do is make a timeline chart of the 70th week, and show all the critical events on it. When you just verbalize, to just limited selected events, it doesn't give a picture of how everything fits together.

Verbalizing only is the main reason there is so much disagreement in this forum - that never seems to get resolved.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The confirming of the covenant begins the 70th week.

Yes, by Christ, the Messiah the Prince, per context. Not your third party theory.

About 3 years into the 70th, the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act - which triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

Incorrect. After 1,260 days, Christ will cause sacrifice necessary for salvation to end because he has secured all of His Elect through the testimony of Two Witnesses (after their 1,260 days). Nothing about your antichrist.

As I show on my chart.

Which needs some corrections.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, by Christ, the Messiah the Prince, per context. Not your third party theory.


Incorrect. After 1,260 days, Christ will cause sacrifice necessary for salvation to end because he has secured all of His Elect through the testimony of Two Witnesses (after their 1,260 days). Nothing about your antichrist.


Which needs some corrections.

Then create you own "correct" chart and display it.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Then create you own "correct" chart and display it.

Be patient.

 

[dfw69]

It does not say martyrs either.

true but it certainly implies it

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

which implies they are a specific class of people who are slain because of 2 things ..for speaking the word of God which implies they are prophets and the testimony they held that is not popular in those days which I believe to take place during the coming false messianic age

Alter and slain are symbolic. What is slain on an alter? Lambs are slain in sacrifice. The alter comes from the OT anyways.

Are you implying some satanic belief that evil men sacrifice lambs to atone for their sins? As if God would honor their sacrifices as a good deed ..

There is no alter in the NT. The NT was the Cross.

Amen there is no need for temple sacrifices anymore.. He became our righteousness and like Abraham was accounted righteous so are we accounted righteous and been made His redeemed which was paid for by His death and sacrifice

Your symbolism of martyrdom means only those martyred are redeemed.

no I’m saying these that are under the alter are a specific class that were slain at a specific era yet to come and yet to be manifested but yes these are redeemed because they came out of great tribulation and have washed thier clothes and made them white in the blood of the lamb

The rapture is before this event

How does that work out for those raptured alive, if they are not martyred? How does that work out for all those who die of natural causes? They are not redeemed?

Those that put their faith on the cross and in the belief that God had a Son who was sacrificed for himself and his family will experience a rapture. This rapture takes place before the great tribulation that causes the souls, of them that are slain, seen under the alter

This is not martyrdom. This is language involving the sacrifice of human life.

I think I see your point and it may give a clue as to why satanic people killed them off …

I know that when the false messianic age is form they will kill off those that offended and not line up with the age but maybe some satanic ritual belief is performed ..

All redeemed souls have to crucify the flesh, and experience the second birth, and ultimately leave Adam's dead corruptible flesh which returns to dust. I guess you need to toss out the majority of Paul's writings as well, as they are full of symbolic terms.

we crucify the flesh when we put our faith on spiritual things and not walk according to the flesh and we will leave Adam dead corrupt flesh when He comes to change us

Your martyrdom is added opinion to the text, out of context, and way short of the mark.

it’s not ..you just don’t understand yet

"And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

If this is every person ever martyred, would not most of those who killed them, already be suffering punishment in sheol? Why would the dead in sheol be judged? What is the point of taking it all out on the living who they never even met. This is pointing out vengeance on those still enjoying sin and disobedience. Those who did not crucify Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

I never said the souls under the alter are every martyred saint since the birth of Christianity… That’s what I’m trying to explain to you that these are a specific class of people who preached against the coming false messianic age and were cut off because those that killed them off were most likely obeying the scriptures that those who offend during the messianic age are to be cut off … It is the false messianic age that is being judged in the end for making the world believe it is the true age

Those in Sheol await judgement for deeds committed against humanity and will be given the reason for them to be cast into the lake of fire

I agree the church has to wait until the final harvest is complete, and all of Adam's dead corruptible flesh is destroyed. The church will even wait in Paradise for the whole millennium.

You are making a case for a class of men in All of Adams dead corruptible flesh to be destroyed not me…

The saints who await other saints to be killed as they were for keeping the commands of God but testifying of Jesus are to be resurrected and will return with Christ to judge the inhabitants of the earth …

the cry of those under the alter is to pour out the wrath and they may have been testifying of the wrath to come upon those that persecute them so they were wondering when it would come …

 

[David Kent]

If you read carefully, Paul is discussing the Day of the Lord, not the rapture. That Day is an established concept in the OT and would have been understood as such by the initial readers.

I don't think so it our gathering together to meet him, which I take to mean when we meet him in the air.

 

[David Kent]

Welcome to the forum, Jonatec.

Being the Antichrist is when the person is thought to be the messiah by the Jews and is anointed the King of Israel. At that time, many who believe in Jesus will turn away, i.e. fall away, and think the Jews were right all along, and will be duped into thinking the Antichrist is the true messiah. That is the great falling away.

After being anointed the King of Israel, about three years go by, with the world thinking it has entered the messianic age of peace and safety; and will be saying peace and safety of 1Thessalonians5 - when the so-called messiah, King of Israel does the unexpected. He goes into temple, sits, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

That particular act is the transgression of desolation of Daniel 8:12-14. It is different from the abomination of desolation, which will come later.

When the Antichrist commits the act, it reveals him to be the man of sin and not the messiah as the Jews will have first thought. The Jews will be mortified by the event and will no longer accept him as their King of Israel. End of the person's time as the Antichrist. He not long after becomes the beast of Revelation 13.

The rapture may happen pre-70th week or it may not. But it has to happen before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation. Anytime between now and the transgression of desolation act.




View attachment 333189

As usual your charts are nonsense. The book of Revelation is written to the church and concerns the church not the Jews. Antichrists came out of the church so they were apostate Christians. Antichrist is the same. He will firstly oppose true Christian, then anyone else who disagrees with him. He will be a continuation if the Caesars in a mystery form. The tribulation in Refofmation is on believers if you take care to read it. Jesus said. In this world you will have tribulation, but I have overcome the world.

 

[David Kent]

We must see the fake Jesus (false prophet) first. He will force everyone to change religions (the falling away).

The real Jesus will not come until after the fake one, so do not become confused.

You assume the fake one has not come? There are many fake ones at present, but one in particular who has the most followers.

 

[Matt5]

what do you suppose happens to the foolish ones in your theory?

Also you seem convince a false messiah comes claiming to be Jesus…how do you suppose he will deceive the foolish ones ?Do you have some wisdom for the foolish ones? We know not to take his mark which is what in your opinion?

Who will be this Jesus messiah type that Christian’s will seek Him over the real one because they do not recognize Him? I mean do you have an idea of how this plays out?

Hi dfw69,

I think you wore out JulieB67, so I'll give it a shot.

While the virgins are waiting for the bridegroom to arrive, who shows up first? It's the fake Jesus who calls himself Jesus. He is the Islamic Jesus as foretold in Islam. He will accompany the Islamic Mahdi which Christians would know as the Antichrist. This is all in Islamic prophecy.

The Islamic Jesus forces everyone to join Islam. Half the Christians join. The mark is merely Allah's name in Arabic which looks a lot like the Bible's 666 mark.

 

[David Kent]

Hi dfw69,

I think you wore out JulieB67, so I'll give it a shot.

While the virgins are waiting for the bridegroom to arrive, who shows up first? It's the fake Jesus who calls himself Jesus. He is the Islamic Jesus as foretold in Islam. He will accompany the Islamic Mahdi which Christians would know as the Antichrist. This is all in Islamic prophecy.

The Islamic Jesus forces everyone to join Islam. Half the Christians join. The mark is merely Allah's name in Arabic which looks a lot like the Bible's 666 mark.

No one came before the bridegroom.

The book was written to Christians in Greek, so the answer must be in Greek.
Antichrist came out of the church so antichrist must be an apostate Christian.
Islamic texts were based on the bible in many cases

And the Arabic name is nothing like 666.

 

[David Kent]

17 then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;

If we just read it as it is written, clouds are up high in the air - the very air we breath. It is my guess, if we had a hundred 5th graders read this verse, they would picture Jesus stopping high in the air, and hidden by clouds to call up His people.

I understand, anyone can read into a verse according to their preconceptions.

Welcome to the forum, Jonatec.

Being the Antichrist is when the person is thought to be the messiah by the Jews and is anointed the King of Israel. At that time, many who believe in Jesus will turn away, i.e. fall away, and think the Jews were right all along, and will be duped into thinking the Antichrist is the true messiah. That is the great falling away.

After being anointed the King of Israel, about three years go by, with the world thinking it has entered the messianic age of peace and safety; and will be saying peace and safety of 1Thessalonians5 - when the so-called messiah, King of Israel does the unexpected. He goes into temple, sits, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

@iamlamad
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

HE WILL DESCEND nowhere does it say he will ascend again.

@ Douggg
Where does it say Antichrist will be anointed king if Israel, or king of anything for the matter.

JESUS is the KING OF KINGS, the popes are called king of kings.

 

[Douggg]

@ Douggg
Where does it say Antichrist will be anointed king if Israel, or king of anything for the matter.

David, first please realize that the person goes through 5 stages on his way to his destruction. Being the Antichrist, the anointed King of Israel, is just one of them.

(1) the little horn person, then (2) the prince who shall come, then (3) the Antichrist, then (4) the revealed man of sin, then (5) the beast-king.

Okay, to your question. In John 5:43, Jesus tells the Jews that although he comes in his Father's name, they reject him; but if another comes in his own name, they will receive. I am using the kjv.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Next, we have to understand to the Jews, "the" messiah implies the promised great King of Israel descended from David, to be lead the Jews and the world into the messianic age of peace and safety. You can go to any Jewish (Judaism) website to verify this.

Grammatically, Christ is a greek based version of the Jewish word for messiah. We can get that from John 4:25

John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

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okay, now let's see where we can find some verses to put all those things together, i.e. coming in his Father's name, and as the King of Israel, and Christ being the King of Israel.

First, John 12:12-15

12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,

15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

Next, let's go to Mark 15:32, Jesus being mocked by the religious leaders...

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

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okay, now we got Christ the King of Israel. And Jesus coming in the name of the Lord, i.e. an inference to him coming in his Father's name, i.e. the specific person God sent to be their King of Israel messiah. But recall that Jesus said the Jews will receive another as their King of Israel messiah - who comes in his own name, i.e. someone God did not send to be their King of Israel messiah..... i.e. the Antichrist. i.e. "Anti" being instead of Jesus, the rightful King of Israel, and being against Jesus, the Son of the Living God.

To help us in identifying the person ahead of time - he has to be a Jew and his religion Judaism. He can't be a Christian, who leaves, albeit John was calling many in his day, who were abandoning Jesus as "antichrists", it was because they suddenly became against Jesus as the Son of God, and were exhibiting the nature of the singular Antichrist, that them in 1John2:18 were aware of his coming. They were aware of the Antichrist's coming because I think John was teaching them about him.

Another thing about the Jews (Judaism) expectations is that the messiah must be anointed the King of Israel by a "known" prophet. Since they are also expecting Elijah the prophet to appear at the same time, to help usher in the messianic age, they will most likely mistake the false prophet person - we first hear about in Revelation 13, who does the same type of calling fire down from heaven as Elijah did - as being Elijah. And it will be the false prophet who anoints the false messiah as the King of Israel - ironically.

Okay, that's the person's Antichrist stage. It will last about 3 years into the seven years, before his time in the Antichrist stage ends, when he reveals himself to be the man of sin (stage 4).

Again, this is how we analyse the person.... so that our understanding of the timeline of events will all line-up.

(1) the little horn person, then (2) the prince who shall come, then (3) the Antichrist, then (4) the revealed man of sin, then (5) the beast-king.

 

[dfw69]

Hi dfw69,

how’s it going Matt5

I think you wore out JulieB67, so I'll give it a shot.

Not at all we just couldn’t come to an agreement

While the virgins are waiting for the bridegroom to arrive, who shows up first?

The call comes to awaken the virgins who were all asleep alerting them that the bridegroom comes for his bride… I don’t see anyone else arriving in this parable

I believe this is a call to wake up the 10 tribes of Israel…

50% were wise and brought extra oil just in case their lamps ran out …in which it did because they awoke and had to relight them

But 50% were foolish and did not bring extra oil to make it to the end .. Their lamps had gone out and they were not able to relight them in time … They left their place and when they tried to return to rejoin and take part in the wedding feast, The bridegroom had no idea who they were so they were locked out from entering inside…

They missed their chance to meet the Bridegroom for being foolish and not planning ahead to bring extra oil to light their way through the darkness in order to meet Him

It's the fake Jesus who calls himself Jesus. He is the Islamic Jesus as foretold in Islam. He will accompany the Islamic Mahdi which Christians would know as the Antichrist. This is all in Islamic prophecy.

I can’t see a fake Jesus in scripture because His enemies are anti - that type of doctrine…So I don’t see a fake return of Jesus and a man claiming to be Him.

Nor do I see an Islamic mahdi Jesus or a self proclaimed mahdi unite with the fake Jesus as his FP who will demand worship from Muslims to follow this man to destroy Israel

Christians nations support Israel and though the Muslims do have reason to hate Zionism for its unfairness against them, they are no threat in power to attack Israel and her allies

There comes a man claiming to be God, not the Son of God , who will sit in the temple in Jerusalem and people are going to believe he’s the real deal to the point that they will give their allegiance to him to the death. And ,in spite of the signs and judgments falling on them, they are too stiff neck and refuse to repent and believe.

Perhaps the deception is too great for them to admit that they are following a false God and admit that they failed to believe in the doctrine of the Father and the Son. They found it too difficult to believe in and accept it as truth though it’s starring them in the face in the last days

And a FP will draw a line in the sand to force men to choose between the belief that this man is God of the Jews and Jesus is not our king nor the Son of God

The AC and FP are both Antichrist meaning they fight against the doctrine that the Father has a Son who will sit on the throne of David and rule from Jerusalem. This concept is just too hard to fathom as truth

The Islamic Jesus forces everyone to join Islam. Half the Christians join. The mark is merely Allah's name in Arabic which looks a lot like the Bible's 666 mark.

Christians know Jesus is not a Muslim ….Ask any Christian to finished this sentence…Salvation is of the ______? No one will say Muslins

As for the mark being Allah in Arabic? The AC nor his FP are not going to be Muslim .
Most likely they will be Jewish claiming to be the God of the Jews and the false prophet a false Elijah and the mark will be the first and last letters of the Aleph-bet

The Aleph Tav is said to be the mark of God and since He will claim to be the true Alpha and Omega he will used Gods own mark against the people and against the true Alpha and Omega