A Question About Signs and Wonders

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Sometimes is not even the person fault, you could get attacked by witchcraft, and if you are ignorant and not defending yourself and firm you could get in trouble with demons. Also the devil attacks 'worthy targets' they say, so if the devil hates you and oppose everything is because you are doing something good supposedly.

Being attacked by a demon is not domination or possession. The attack is through temptation to succumb to doing the work of the flesh. The Bible says that if we resist the devil, he will flee from us. Also when a person is converted to Christ and baptised in the name of Jesus, he receives the Holy Spirit as his helper to teach him how to engage His power to ward off temptation and move way from the works of the flesh to walk in the fruit of the Spirit.

The Lord's prayer says, "Do not put us to the test, but deliver us from evil". This is what Jesus instructed that Christians should pray on a regular basis to ensure that the Lord is working with them through the agency of the Holy Spirit to keep them from evil. Also the armour of God is provided to enable us to withstand all the attacks of the enemy.

If a person is ignorant of God's Word to the extent that he cannot defend himself against the attacks of the enemy, then either he never reads his Bible, or he does not yet have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Scripture says that those who have not the Spirit of Christ are none of His. What this means is that a person who does not have the indwelling Holy Spirit is not yet converted to Christ and is therefore still dead in his trespasses and sins. In that case, he could well be dominated by devils and needs deliverance to remove barriers preventing him from receiving Christ as Saviour.

 

[NBB]

The reference in Mark does say that Christians will cast out devils. But it does not say that Christians will have devils cast out of them.

My view is if you are a genuinely converted, baptised believer in Christ, you have the Holy Spirit and therefore you are totally set from any domination by the devil. Therefore you were set free from the works of the flesh through the power of the Holy Spirit, along with the others at your church.

That creates 2 problems, first if someone tells you they have spiritual problems, you can think they are not chistians, which is horrible and second, you could not believe they have spiritual problems since 'christians can't have demons' you don't provide any help.

So i believe there is lots of christians stuck suffering because of this horrible theology, with spiritual problems and shame, because this silly belief that christians can't have demons.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You are hopeless. See I told you you wouldn't believe and more or less called me a liar. Peace Out

All I am saying is what anyone would say if they are following Scripture which says, "Prove all things and hold fast to that which is good." If you encountered symptoms of a heart attack and called upon the elders of your church who prayed over you and you were totally healed and didn't need medical treatment, then I would accept that as a genuine miracle of healing. Furthermore if you had a previous history of heart trouble documented by your doctor, and then went back for a checkup with your doctor and told him that you were totally healed of a heart attack, the proof would be that upon examination, your heart and arteries would be in such perfect condition that there would be no sign of any previous trouble. Now that would convince the doctor that you had experienced a miracle of healing, not only of your heart attack, but generally of your heart and arteries as well. When God does a miracle healing, He does it completely.

I'm not calling you a liar. I'm just looking at it from a different perspective, as any normal questioning person would do.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That creates 2 problems, first if someone tells you they have spiritual problems, you can think they are not chistians, which is horrible and second, you could not believe they have spiritual problems since 'christians can't have demons' you don't provide any help.

So i believe there is lots of christians stuck suffering because of this horrible theology, with spiritual problems and shame, because this silly belief that christians can't have demons.

I think you have been deceived by false teaching that Christians can have demons. Colossians 1:13 makes it clear that Christians cannot be dominated by demons. Also, if a Christian is the temple of the Holy Spirit, he cannot be a habitation of demons at the same time.

We all have struggles and problems at times, because our sinful flesh wars against the Spirit. Paul made it clear that although we love the law of God in our hearts, there is another law in our flesh that causes us to do things we don't want to do.

So, you are saying that Colossians 1:13 is horrible theology, but in reality it is the Bible and the teaching that Christians can have demons is horrible theology that brings great harm to those who don't realise what the Bible actually teaches.

The truth is that there is absolutely nothing in the New Testament that says that Christians can have demons, and there are no instances where demons have been cast out of Christian believers. So your theology that Christians can have demons does not come from the Bible but by false teachers who are either ignorant of what the Bible teaches, or are ignoring it.

 

[NBB]

I think you have been deceived by false teaching that Christians can have demons. Colossians 1:13 makes it clear that Christians cannot be dominated by demons. Also, if a Christian is the temple of the Holy Spirit, he cannot be a habitation of demons at the same time.

We all have struggles and problems at times, because our sinful flesh wars against the Spirit. Paul made it clear that although we love the law of God in our hearts, there is another law in our flesh that causes us to do things we don't want to do.

So, you are saying that Colossians 1:13 is horrible theology, but in reality it is the Bible and the teaching that Christians can have demons is horrible theology that brings great harm to those who don't realise what the Bible actually teaches.

The truth is that there is absolutely nothing in the New Testament that says that Christians can have demons, and there are no instances where demons have been cast out of Christian believers. So your theology that Christians can have demons does not come from the Bible but by false teachers who are either ignorant of what the Bible teaches, or are ignoring it.

Just look at the mental issues side of this forum, most issues are spiritual problems. I have experience with this in my life, you are insinuating other people are not christians and their experience is fake or from the devil, because you are stuck with that theology, another issues that it has. The bible doesn't anywhere say that christians can't have demons. 'You were free from the reign of darkness' but sometimes it requires work praying a lot fighting and suffering which that theology invalidates.

 

[ARBITER01]

Sometimes is not even the person fault, you could get attacked by witchcraft, and if you are ignorant and not defending yourself and firm you could get in trouble with demons. Also the devil attacks 'worthy targets' they say, so if the devil hates you and oppose everything is because you are doing something good supposedly.

The more a person is a threat to satan and his plans, the more that person will be plotted against and attacked by him and his forces, and that does include by those that are operating spiritually. The OT called it witchcraft, the NT calls it sorcery. It's become more of a threat here in the states lately. Where you're at in Uruguay, it's a probably active more.

 

[NBB]

if you think every deliverance ministry out there, is because false teaching and making kundalini or stuff, you are totally wrong! and is dangerous to think that. Better stop thinking about that, or you may need deliverance yourself, which is not a shame, the stigma about 'demon possession' is not ok, a person is not worse because they have spiritual problems, you may be just a victim.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Just look at the mental issues side of this forum, most issues are spiritual problems. I have experience with this in my life, you are insinuating other people are not christians and their experience is fake or from the devil, because you are stuck with that theology, another issues that it has. The bible doesn't anywhere say that christians can't have demons. 'You were free from the reign of darkness' but sometimes it requires work praying a lot fighting and suffering which that theology invalidates.

The Bible is absolutely true that Christians are not dominated by demons, even if they have mental health issues. These issues are still because we have imperfect sinful bodies. Mental health issues may not be there because the person has actually sinned in some way, but because of inherited sin from Adam, the physical body is full of problems. The only way a person can regain mental health is to believe the Bible, accept the Gospel and be converted to Christ, and then trust the power of the Holy Spirit to transform them into mentally healthy people. We will always be plagued with problems and issues in our flesh until the day we die.

There have been many reports of Christians supposedly being delivered of demons, and then realise that the problem remains. The "deliverance" has not solved the problem. This is because the problem was not caused by a demon, but a flesh issue that needs ongoing prayer and trust in the power of the Holy Spirit to fully resolve.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

if you think every deliverance ministry out there, is because false teaching and making kundalini or stuff, you are totally wrong! and is dangerous to think that. Better stop thinking about that, or you may need deliverance yourself, which is not a shame, the stigma about 'demon possession' is not ok, a person is not worse because they have spiritual problems, you may be just a victim.

Colossians 1:13 proves me correct. Be careful, because it is the teaching of Christ, and the Scripture says that those who don't abide by the teaching of Christ do not have God. The teaching of Christ comes through the Scriptures and not through some Pentecostal theologian who teaches stuff outside of what the Scripture clearly says.

 

[ARBITER01]

if you think every deliverance ministry out there, is because false teaching and making kundalini or stuff, you are totally wrong! and is dangerous to think that. Better stop thinking about that, or you may need deliverance yourself, which is not a shame, the stigma about 'demon possession' is not ok, a person is not worse because they have spiritual problems, you may be just a victim.

Don't get too wrapped up by Oscarr and his false statements. Jesus dealt with evil spirits, as well as Paul and others in the NT, so yes, we will to. And it can include believers in sin despite what pieces of scripture Oscarr tries to throw together against it.

He's just reasoning away things with his mind that he can't discern spiritually.

 

[NBB]

Don't get too wrapped up by Oscarr and his false statements. Jesus dealt with evil spirits, as well as Paul and others in the NT, so yes, we will to. And it can include believers in sin despite what pieces of scripture Oscarr tries to throw together against it.

He's just reasoning away things with his mind that he can't discern spiritually.

Sorry, i am passionate about the subject

 

[ARBITER01]

Sorry, i am passionate about the subject

Oh yea,.... so am I, but I'm not here to persuade anyone. I can talk truth in hopes that The Holy Spirit can use it to enlighten someone, but I'm not all that concerned if people don't "get it."

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Don't get too wrapped up by Oscarr and his false statements. Jesus dealt with evil spirits, as well as Paul and others in the NT, so yes, we will to. And it can include believers in sin despite what pieces of scripture Oscarr tries to throw together against it.

He's just reasoning away things with his mind that he can't discern spiritually.

It looks like that you believe that Colossians 1:13 is false. You are saying that Christians can be dominated by demons, while the Bible says they are not. And that Christians are temples of the Holy Spirit and there are not empty "houses" where demons can enter in. The indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit keeps demons away because they can't abide with Him.

Jesus dealt with evil spirits in unconverted people still under the Old Covenant. Paul dealt with evil spirits in unconverted pagans. There are absolutely no occasions where Paul ever cast a demon out of a converted believer.

AOG theology that involves demons being cast out of Christians is not based on the Bible. Demons being cast out of unconverted pagans in order to clear the way for them to be converted to Christ is fully supported in Scripture. It is interesting that all the examples in Acts show that it was Paul who did the casting out of demons. Nothing was said about anyone else doing it. There is the account of the seven sons of Sceva trying it and they fled naked and wounded as a result when the demon overcame them. It is interesting that the demon said, "Jesus I know and Paul I know, but who are you?"

As a matter of interest, Jesus said when referring to the Holy Spirit as helper who is to come, He said that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. He also said that the Holy Spirit will not speak on His own authority but will teach what the Father tells Him. This means that if Jesus taught only what the Father told Him, and that Jesus has sent the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth, then the Holy Spirit will give us the teaching of Christ, which He has done through the inspiration of the letters of the Apostles. Because the Scripture says that those who don't have the teaching of Christ do not have God, then basing theology on teaching that doesn't come through the Bible would show that the theology is not of God at all. Seeing that some Charismatics are saying that the direct teaching of the Holy Spirit that comes through His "voice" supersedes written Scripture because "Jesus did many other things that are not written in John's Gospel", then that could very well produce theology that could be definitely very dodgy!

 

[ARBITER01]

It looks like that you believe that Colossians 1:13 is false. You are saying that Christians can be dominated by demons, while the Bible says they are not. And that Christians are temples of the Holy Spirit and there are not empty "houses" where demons can enter in. The indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit keeps demons away because they can't abide with Him.

Jesus dealt with evil spirits in unconverted people still under the Old Covenant. Paul dealt with evil spirits in unconverted pagans. There are absolutely no occasions where Paul ever cast a demon out of a converted believer.

AOG theology that involves demons being cast out of Christians is not based on the Bible. Demons being cast out of unconverted pagans in order to clear the way for them to be converted to Christ is fully supported in Scripture. It is interesting that all the examples in Acts show that it was Paul who did the casting out of demons. Nothing was said about anyone else doing it. There is the account of the seven sons of Sceva trying it and they fled naked and wounded as a result when the demon overcame them. It is interesting that the demon said, "Jesus I know and Paul I know, but who are you?"

As a matter of interest, Jesus said when referring to the Holy Spirit as helper who is to come, He said that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. He also said that the Holy Spirit will not speak on His own authority but will teach what the Father tells Him. This means that if Jesus taught only what the Father told Him, and that Jesus has sent the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth, then the Holy Spirit will give us the teaching of Christ, which He has done through the inspiration of the letters of the Apostles. Because the Scripture says that those who don't have the teaching of Christ do not have God, then basing theology on teaching that doesn't come through the Bible would show that the theology is not of God at all. Seeing that some Charismatics are saying that the direct teaching of the Holy Spirit that comes through His "voice" supersedes written Scripture because "Jesus did many other things that are not written in John's Gospel", then that could very well produce theology that could be definitely very dodgy!

I'm not all that concerned with trying to help you understand things that you should already know by now.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oh yea,.... so am I, but I'm not here to persuade anyone. I can talk truth in hopes that The Holy Spirit can use it to enlighten someone, but I'm not all that concerned if people don't "get it."

In the same way, I just give my opinions and allow everyone to check them out through the only reliable source we have, like the Bereans, who "searched the Scriptures daily to see that these things are so." You would think that Paul, having direct experience of meeting Christ and being taught directly by him to the point where he didn't have to go and get teaching from the Apostles in Jerusalem, that He would be much better attuned to the voice of the Holy Spirit than all of us. He even had angels come to reassure him at times, and he was at one time taken up into the third heaven. And yet, the Bereans didn't take him just because he preached it, but went to their only reliable source to validate what he preaches was absolutely true. Luke says that the Bereans were more noble than those in Thessalonica because they did search the Scriptures to validate preaching. Perhaps those who search the Scriptures for validation today are more noble than those who take teaching at face value without checking things out through Scripture.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'm not all that concerned with trying to help you understand things that you should already know by now.

I'd believe you if you can show definite Scriptural support for what you are trying to get me to understand.

I was a full part of the Pentecostal movement from 1966 to 1979, in which I gained a full understanding of Pentecostal doctrine and practice. I believed it implicitly all those years and defended it to the max. Even when I left the Pentecostal movement in 1979, I never severed my links with my Pentecostal and Charismatic friends. From 2000-2019, I was involved at the leadership level in a Charismatic prophetic ministry. Also, you will see from my posts since I first started with CF in 2006, I spent many years fully supporting Pentecostal theology and practice.

It is only with the advent of Kenneth Hagin and his disciples that I started to question what was going on, and started to search the Scriptures to see whether the things I believed concerning Pentecostal doctrine and practice were actually true according to Scripture. I found that many of the practices and activities were missing from the New Testament, so I adopted that if it ain't in the New Testament then it ain't of God, but aspects of the world, the flesh, and even of the devil. Since then I have held to what I have actually seen in the Scriptures as true concerning what is said and done in the Charismatic movement.

 

[Laodicean60]

Oh yea,.... so am I, but I'm not here to persuade anyone. I can talk truth in hopes that The Holy Spirit can use it to enlighten someone, but I'm not all that concerned if people don't "get it."

I think our egos get in the way.

 

[ARBITER01]

I think our egos get in the way.

True.

Each of us answers to The Lord in the end. I have to make sure I'm doing those things that He wants rather than the things that I want. That's really my focus anymore instead of internet arguments.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think we have to understand some facts concerning the word faith signs and wonders movement.

It all started with E.W. Kenyon. When I was a young believer in1966 through to the mid 70s, I saw him as a very sound Bible teacher, and I loved his writing. But in recent times it emerged that he was strongly influenced by an organisation that concentrated on higher New Age thought and positive thinking. Also he taught that when Jesus died, He went down into hell, while the Scripture says that He went to Paradise after committing His spirit to the Father.

Another proponent of the positive thinking and confession was Norman Vincent Peale. He was quite clear that he got his theories from an occult spiritual guide who dictated it all to him, which resulted in his book, "The Power of Positive Thinking". Robert Shuler is a faithful disciple of Peale and his positive thinking, and is a strong supporter of New Age occult thinking mixed with Christian terminology.

This leads us to Kenneth Hagin. He was a strong supporter and disciple of E.W. Kenyon and Norman Vincent Peale. It is said that he plagiarized the work of Kenyon in his own writing. He is identified as the father of the word faith movement. So we can see that Hagin was heavily influenced by the New Age occult positive thinking of both Kenyon and Peale, which reveals that his theology is based on New Age rather than on the sound doctrine of Scripture. The Scripture in Timothy 4 which says that some have departed from sound doctrine and gone after fables, could very well apply to him and anyone who was discipled by him.

Here are some of the people who were discipled by Hagin: Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Rodney Howard-Browne, Todd Bentley, Todd White, Creflo Dollar, Jesse Duplanis, and others who preach and teach positive confession and the name it and claim it doctrine. One has to wonder that if the foundation of the movement is built on occult New Age influences communicated to E W Kenyon and Normal Vincent Peale, whether these men actually have the Holy Spirit, or have some other spirit that is not consistent with the Gospel of Christ. It has to be noticed that during the preaching and teaching of these men mentioned here, there is nothing about Jesus dying on the Cross, shedding His blood, and taking the penalty for our sins. There is nothing said about the resurrection of Christ giving us eternal life. In fact, faithful pastors who have tried to encourage people to believe the Gospel have been frog marched out of these men's conferences by security. it seems to me that these word faith preachers and teachers don't want to hear the Gospel of Christ. It seems that their teaching has replaced it with promises of personal prosperity, guaranteed healing, predictive prophecy (which never comes to pass) and signs and wonders (which don't happen).

This is why I don't support the word faith signs and wonders movement, and am saddened about the multitudes of people who are deceived into believing the false teaching. Anyway, that is just my opinion based on what I have discovered in my research, but the readers need to check it out for themselves.

 

[Rose_bud]

Wow this thread went all over very quickly