A Question About Signs and Wonders

Presbyterian Continuist · Jan 12, 2024

hislegacy said:
Will you be replying to the now two posts quoting Jesus' own words - or will they be ignored. If we are not going to have a back and forth conversation - It is little more than pontificating. IMHO

Part of being a Charismatic is believing that all the Charisms (Gifts) are active in the church today. If you are from the standpoint that they are not - perhaps you should consider changing your name.

Something else for you to consider and address is Paul's letter to the church -

1 Cor 12:27 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?

If you had taken the time to read my posts you will have seen that I definitely have not said at any time, ever since I have been a member of CF, that the gifts have ceased through a decree of God that they were meant to pass away at the end of the Apostolic era.

But I have said that the gifts declined and ceased by the 4th Century because of the church being corrupted by paganism and a falling of the standards of commitment to Christ and of holiness. And if the gifts are not prevalent in today's churches it is not anyone's fault but the Church's, not having departed from ritual, formalism, lack of holiness, New Age, and commitment to Christ. Also what has brought the gifts into disrepute in these days is the misuse of them by people who misunderstand their purpose and who are using the gifts for their own ends, wanting their particular faction to appear at the cutting edge of God's will at the expense of the wider body of Christ.

Guojing · Jan 12, 2024

hislegacy said:
Hint: I am not going to go down a rabbit trail, because the topic of this thread is about signs and wonders and the verses you post have ZERO to do with the topic.

My point is that you cannot pick and choose Jesus' words in the 4 gospels.

If you believe that his words in Mark 16:17-18 are directed to you, hence believing otherwise would be calling Jesus a liar, the same must apply to his other words.

Guojing · Jan 12, 2024

Presbyterian Charismatic said:
The elephant in the room is that the signs and wonders are not happening. What we do see are the multitudes who turn up to these big name healing conferences, end up going back home still confined to their wheelchairs. Most the the real chronic cases never get near the platform and are never ministered to by the big name fellow. If the signs and wonders were really happening we would know all about them and they would be front page news in every newspaper in the land.

Perhaps if more charismatics and NAR people actually stop to consider that Jesus' words in the 4 gospels were directed not to them, then they will be able to reconcile all these observations.

This is what Paul meant when he said to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).

Always in His Presence · Jan 12, 2024

Guojing said:
My point is that you cannot pick and choose Jesus' words in the 4 gospels.

If you believe that his words in Mark 16:17-18 are directed to you, hence believing otherwise would be calling Jesus a liar, the same must apply to his other words.

Context is so very important - and it is because of context that I do not agree with you.

To me personally, that makes your point moot.

Guojing · Jan 12, 2024

hislegacy said:
Context is so very important - and it is because of context that I do not agree with you.

To me personally, that makes your point moot.

So you decided that the mark passage is in context but the Luke passage is not.

Alright then

Bobber · Feb 24, 2024

Presbyterian Continuist said:
But there is no Scriptural support for someone setting themselves up as a healing ministry.

We're in the salvation ministry of men's spirit, soul but God does have a message for the physical body as well. You have a right to set yourself up as a salvation minister.

Presbyterian Continuist said:
All the modern healing ministries have failed to produced their promised results because they have changed the emphasis from preaching the Gospel to save souls to preaching healing to heal bodies.

Actually you'll get more people saved from getting people healed . People want to see that God is alive and that he cares for them in a practical sense Paul said his gospel wasn't just be word only but by demonstration of power. That usually always meant healing.

Presbyterian Continuist · Feb 24, 2024

Bobber said:
We're in the salvation ministry of men's spirit, soul but God does have a message for the physical body as well. You have a right to set yourself up as a salvation minister.

Actually you'll get more people saved from getting people healed . People want to see that God is alive and that he cares for them in a practical sense Paul said his gospel wasn't just be word only but by demonstration of power. That usually always meant healing.

That sounds all very fine in theory, but the prominent word faith healing ministries don't actually preach the Gospel at all; neither do they get people actually healed either regardless of all the speechmaking and motivational talk. Many people have paid their "seed faith" money in order to get their promised healing, but the healing doesn't come. All that seems to happen is plenty of sick people get "slain in the spirit" but nothing much else. You have to wonder why if there is enough power to make a person fall down, there is not enough power to get them healed.

Bobber · Feb 24, 2024

Presbyterian Continuist said:
That sounds all very fine in theory, but the prominent word faith healing ministries don't actually preach the Gospel at all; neither do they get people actually healed......

I'd say forget about all what you consider to be the results of certain men. (or women) What DOES the Bible say about what we're to be doing? If there were only 10 of us Christians on the Earth starting fresh with the word of God....so what say you? What are we called to do?

Daniel Marsh · Feb 24, 2024

Bobber said:
I'd say forget about all what you consider to be the results of certain men. (or women) What DOES the Bible say about what we're to be doing? If there were only 10 of us Christians on the Earth starting fresh with the word of God....so what say you? What are we called to do?

tell everyone about Jesus and what he did for everyone. Also, glorifly God.

Presbyterian Continuist · Feb 24, 2024

Bobber said:
I'd say forget about all what you consider to be the results of certain men. (or women) What DOES the Bible say about what we're to be doing? If there were only 10 of us Christians on the Earth starting fresh with the word of God....so what say you? What are we called to do?

When we take a serious look at what the Book of Acts actually says, we see that only the Apostles actually performed signs and wonders, and it was directly related to the preaching of the Gospel. There is nothing in the book of Acts that shows that ordinary believers who were not Apostles actually did signs and wonders. So that is the answer to your question, "What DOES the Bible say about what we're to be doing? It is clear that we are not to be doing signs and wonders because we are not the First Century Apostles of Christ.

Therefore, none of us can claim to perform signs and wonders on demand. However, signs and wonders do happen, but through the sovereignty of God. He does the signs and wonders when He decides and through whom He decides to perform them. This is why preachers like Smith Wigglesworth, Maria Woodworth-Etter, Kathryn Kuhlman, and Oral Roberts had signs and wonders happen at different stages of their ministries. Also, we know that God did them even though they were not perfect in their theology in certain ways. This is in accordance with the treasure God in earthen vessels.

So, whether people get healed or not has nothing to do with us. We can't blame sick people who are not healed that they were not perfect or they had insufficient faith. It is because God decided not to heal them for reasons only known to Himself. There are no Scriptures (in context) that clearly show that healing is guaranteed on demand just because someone like Benny Hinn or Kenneth Copeland decrees that a sick person is healed. Bill Johnson stated that sickness was not in his theology, yet his own wife recently died of cancer. Kenneth Copeland has a heart condition that requires a pacemaker. That must mean, according to his own theology, that he himself has insufficient faith to accomplish his own healing.

Bobber · Feb 25, 2024

Presbyterian Continuist said:
When we take a serious look at what the Book of Acts actually says, we see that only the Apostles actually performed signs and wonders, and it was directly related to the preaching of the Gospel.

I somewhat agree but there was a two fold application. Signs and wonders usually meant healing but if a sign and wonder came upon a Christian that would be the mercy of God imparted on one who was already saved.

Also you say God ONLY used the Apostles? Stephen however was not an Apostle.

Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, performed great wonders and signs among the people. Acts 16:8

Presbyterian Continuist said:
There is nothing in the book of Acts that shows that ordinary believers who were not Apostles actually did signs and wonders.

As you can see I did show you one above. (about Stephen) And this is worthy of some thought. Why would God make sure this verse was included or to have about Stephen put down in the record on what he did. Seems to me God knew people would come and claim as you have that God only used Apostles. But it states once again Stephen performed signs and wonders.

NBB · Feb 25, 2024

It says 'those who believe will cast out devils, they will pray for the sick and they will heal'
Is basically a commandment to do this, saying is not for today is just unbelief.

ARBITER01 · Feb 25, 2024

Bobber said:
I somewhat agree but there was a two fold application. Signs and wonders usually meant healing but if a sign and wonder came upon a Christian that would be the mercy of God imparted on one who was already saved.

Also you say God ONLY used the Apostles? Stephen however was not an Apostle.

Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, performed great wonders and signs among the people. Acts 16:8

As you can see I did show you one above. (about Stephen) And this is worthy of some thought. Why would God make sure this verse was included or to have about Stephen put down in the record on what he did. Seems to me God knew people would come and claim as you have that God only used Apostles. But it states once again Stephen performed signs and wonders.

Phillip over in Chapter 8 was one of people in the group that took care of the Hellenist widows alongside Stephen. There are examples in scripture of regular Christians operating in power with GOD. Why wouldn't there be?

Bobber · Feb 25, 2024

Presbyterian Continuist said:
Therefore, none of us can claim to perform signs and wonders on demand.

I'd say you're in error about something here. Praying for the sick and claiming healing by faith and talking like you've got it and acting like you've got it (which is what Mk 11:24/Jm 1 says) is not demanding an actual manifestation at a certain point in time. We can say however God demands that we believe that we receive when we pray......when we pray, when we pray, when we pray....what? Believe that you receive it. Not believe you receive it when the symptoms are gone. Signs and wonders are in a different category usually and may occur right away with any faith, at all by the recipients that experience them.

Presbyterian Continuist said:
However, signs and wonders do happen, but through the sovereignty of God.

I agree with that. You can't claim a sign and wonder.....you can however create an atmosphere by which if God chooses to impart them he will. And yes he'll decide by whom they'll flow through. But everybody can pray the prayer of faith for the sick.

Presbyterian Continuist said:
This is why preachers like Smith Wigglesworth, Maria Woodworth-Etter, Kathryn Kuhlman, and Oral Roberts had signs and wonders happen at different stages of their ministries.

I agree, but Hold it....thought you said earlier you believe they only happened through the original Apostles?

Hazelelponi · Feb 25, 2024

Presbyterian Continuist said:
So, is the teaching that ordinary believers are able to perform signs and wonders in today's church true or false?

I'll share what I believe. I believe the power of the Holy Spirit is real and for ordinary believers.

That said, ordinary believers won't display signs and wonders.

If you recall in Matthew 16:1 the Pharisees and Sadducees demanded Jesus produce a sign from heaven to prove His Authority was from Heaven.

Jesus (paraphrasing) said only a wicked and adulterous generation would even ask for a sign and that no sign would be given it outside of the reference to Jonah, which of course Christians interpret as a prophetic reference to Jesus' death and resurrection.

So the sign for this age is Christ. He died and rose again. He's what everything points to.

The Holy Spirit empowers us to be real living Christians in our day - which is far harder to do than it sounds. We have the power of the Holy Spirit to live our faith in real life though.

And that's a mighty display of power indeed because temptations abound and we are but children learning to crawl....

People called to be missionaries and pastors are given the strength and the power for the task; but the far greatest display of Christ's saving power in that empty tomb is in the ordinary. The Holy Spirit strengthening believers to live perfectly ordinary lives in extraordinary ways.

I think there's a special annointing for various specific purposes, such as Peter and Paul etc had, I think it's still possible, but it's not the rule and never has been, it's the exception.

Presbyterian Continuist · Feb 25, 2024

Bobber said:
I somewhat agree but there was a two fold application. Signs and wonders usually meant healing but if a sign and wonder came upon a Christian that would be the mercy of God imparted on one who was already saved.

Also you say God ONLY used the Apostles? Stephen however was not an Apostle.

Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, performed great wonders and signs among the people. Acts 16:8

As you can see I did show you one above. (about Stephen) And this is worthy of some thought. Why would God make sure this verse was included or to have about Stephen put down in the record on what he did. Seems to me God knew people would come and claim as you have that God only used Apostles. But it states once again Stephen performed signs and wonders.

Stephen, Barnabas, and Silas actually witnessed the risen Christ, and were directly associated with the Apostles. Therefore because of that relationship, and their passion for the Gospel, signs and wonders happened. No one today has personally witnessed the risen Christ, nor have any any personal association with the First Century Apostles. Therefore any signs and wonders performed would be through the sovereignty and grace of God, and not through any special relationship of the ministry to God over and above their faith in Christ which is common to all believers. Yes, God can heal a sick person through you, but that would be His decision, not yours.

Presbyterian Continuist · Feb 25, 2024

Bobber said:
I'd say you're in error about something here. Praying for the sick and claiming healing by faith and talking like you've got it and acting like you've got it (which is what Mk 11:24/Jm 1 says) is not demanding an actual manifestation at a certain point in time. We can say however God demands that we believe that we receive when we pray......when we pray, when we pray, when we pray....what? Believe that you receive it. Not believe you receive it when the symptoms are gone. Signs and wonders are in a different category usually and may occur right away with any faith, at all by the recipients that experience them.

I agree with that. You can't claim a sign and wonder.....you can however create an atmosphere by which if God chooses to impart them he will. And yes he'll decide by whom they'll flow through. But everybody can pray the prayer of faith for the sick.

I agree, but Hold it....thought you said earlier you believe they only happened through the original Apostles?

Like I said, God heals people through whom He choses through His grace and sovereignty. It is not through the choice of the person that God heals and when He heals. That is why most genuine ministries have a hit and miss concerning their prayers for healing.

ARBITER01 · Feb 25, 2024

Presbyterian Continuist said:
Stephen, Barnabas, and Silas actually witnessed the risen Christ, and were directly associated with the Apostles. Therefore because of that relationship, and their passion for the Gospel, signs and wonders happened. No one today has personally witnessed the risen Christ, nor have any any personal association with the First Century Apostles. Therefore any signs and wonders performed would be through the sovereignty and grace of God, and not through any special relationship of the ministry to God over and above their faith in Christ which is common to all believers. Yes, God can heal a sick person through you, but that would be His decision, not yours.

lol, come on Oscarr, you can't be moving the goalposts. You said only the "Apostles" did miracles.

Bobber · Feb 25, 2024

Presbyterian Continuist said:
Stephen, Barnabas, and Silas actually witnessed the risen Christ, and were directly associated with the Apostles. Therefore because of that relationship, and their passion for the Gospel, signs and wonders happened.

No, no, no sorry but what you're trying to do now is a work around from your statement that God only did signs and wonders through the 12 Apostles. I demonstrated God did signs and wonders through Stephen and it even states that's what they were. You say in your name tag you're a Continuist so it's a mystery to me why you even go down that road and say they were only for the Apostles.

No offence but you just can't say well Stephen performed them because he has a relationship with the Apostles. Being an Apostle meant being designated with an authority and if you had to have that for signs and wonders to flow through one then God would never have used Stephen. Not important to prove you wrong on just an academic point but with your point you seek to connect to our day.....that God only worked such things through Apostles.

Presbyterian Continuist said:
No one today has personally witnessed the risen Christ, nor have any any personal association with the First Century Apostles. Therefore any signs and wonders performed would be through the sovereignty and grace of God, and not through any special relationship of the ministry to God over and above their faith in Christ which is common to all believers.

So I think i see here what you're trying to say. Don't agree with you though. The signs and wonders done by Apostles in the book of Acts they themselves couldn't turn them on an off as if they owned them. It still came by the grace of God through the sovereignty of God but the disciples constantly prayed for such to take place....Acts 4:30 .it's just that God would pick who he would use that they 'd flow out of. Yes most of the time it was through the Apostles but not exclusively.

Also they might have worked through more than just Stephen who wasn't an Apostle and in future times too. The scriptures doesn't say they did or didn't but no proof to say they didn't. As I stated I believe it mentions Stephen in particular for God knew people would someday say he could only work such through Apostles.

Presbyterian Continuist · Feb 25, 2024

ARBITER01 said:
lol, come on Oscarr, you can't be moving the goalposts. You said only the "Apostles" did miracles.

Well, the question came up about Stephen performing signs and wonders, so that necessitated doing some more research to find out why. I just repeated what some commentators said about it.

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