A question about Purgatory.

[Albion]

You seem to be reading all of what you say into my post. I am not sure how to respond ..l I think you're reading purgatory into my post, which I didn't say.

Not Purgatory, per se. No.

However, you seemed to me to give support to the rationale that is often used to defend the idea of Purgatory--that a person who is forgiven his sin must additionally be "perfected" after death...and "perfected" through being punished (!).

See here--

We will be perfected, yes. How? Well, we believe that process starts in this life, through our cooperation with God's grace. What Protestants often call "sanctification". But we don't become completely sanctified in this life.

That process will be completed. When? We don't know. Perhaps in death. Perhaps after death. Certainly it will reach a necessary threshold before we enter the glory of life in the age to come.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Not Purgatory, per se. No.

However, you seemed to me to give support to the rationale that is often used to defend the idea of Purgatory--that a person who is forgiven his sin must additionally be "perfected" after death...and "perfected" through being punished (!).

See here--

Yes, we must be perfected. Does anyone imagine us going into the life of the age to come still encumbered by tendencies to pride, bitterness, jealousy, selfishness? I would think we all agree that we must be actually perfected sometime between this life and the beginning of that one.

I don't see punishment in my quote. And I would not have said it. You seem to be reading that into what I said, because we do not believe that God punishes everything in order to purify.


We do believe that suffering CAN purify - like a person who endures a long painful illness and uses it to become humble, turn more fully to God, etc. It can happen. But people can be purified in a great many ways - most especially by loving and serving others.

That has absolutely no translation into "God is going to punish everyone in order to purify them" ... we don't believe that. Period.

 

[Albion]

Yes, we must be perfected. Does anyone imagine us going into the life of the age to come still encumbered by tendencies to pride, bitterness, jealousy, selfishness? I would think we all agree that we must be actually perfected sometime between this life and the beginning of that one.

I believe that to be the consequence of forgiveness. The only reason Man is fallen from nhis original state is sin, so if that sin is removed, he is restored. That is the whole point of the Incarnation, the Crucifixion, the Resurrection and, in fact, of the Bible.

And, as I said also, even if there were some reconstruction of our souls after death that occurs or needs to occur, an obligatory torturing of believers who have trusted Christ for their salvation is not how it would be done. That in itself, which is an essential part of the Purgatory theory, is ridiculous. If purification were the end result, everyone in HELL would be perfected.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I believe that to be the consequence of forgiveness. The only reason Man is fallen from nhis original state is sin, so if that sin is removed, he is restored. That is the whole point of the Incarnation, the Crucifixion, the Resurrection and, in fact, of the Bible.

And, as I said also, even if there were some reconstruction of our souls after death that occurs or needs to occur, an obligatory torturing of believers who have trusted Christ for their salvation is not how it would be done. That in itself, which is an essential part of the Purgatory theory, is ridiculous. If purification were the end result, everyone in HELL would be perfected.

Well, as I said, we don't believe in purgatory.

But your other point - I take it that you are saying that the soul of man is perfected as a function of being forgiven?

Would you say we are now forgiven?

Would you say we are now perfected in spirit?

We would answer yes, and no, to those questions respectively ... so one cannot flow from the other. Do you see it another way?


Though - as I keep trying to point out - we DO NOT KNOW so we (Orthodox) are not dogmatic on these things ... I can very easily imagine that it could be that to experience in person the total forgiveness from Christ when we stand before Him could be the catalyst that fully purifies any remaining dross. It is entirely possible in that context. I'm not going to say one way or another, as this is simply something we do not fully know exactly how God will accomplish it. But I could agree that it might be true in that context.

 

[Albion]

Well, as I said, we don't believe in purgatory.

I got that part.

But your other point - I take it that you are saying that the soul of man is perfected as a function of being forgiven?

Not in this life, no, but torturing him in the afterlife is not what makes him eligible for Heaven where everyone is perfect.

Would you say we are now forgiven?

The theologically correct answer would be that those who are true believers are known only to God. But some of "us" are among them..

Would you say that we are now perfected in spirit?

I don't even know what you mean by that.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I got that part.


Not in this life, no, but torturing him in the afterlife is not what makes him eligible for Heaven where everyone is perfect.


The theologically correct answer would be that those who are true believers are known only to God. But some of "us" are among them..


I don't even know what you mean by that.

It's ok.

I think maybe you are focused more on punishment since you keep going back to that.

I was only curious about your beliefs.

 

[Albion]

It's ok.

I think maybe you are focused more on punishment since you keep going back to that.

That IS what the theory and doctrine of Purgatory is all about! Of course I have to mention that fact when people ask what Purgatory is, if it's real, and all of that.

I was only curious about your beliefs.

But first you questioned why I didn't completely agree with your answer to another member in which you agreed with some Roman Catholic claims that are used to support Purgatory--that business about the need for special treatment making us perfect through punishment, for example.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

No, I'm afraid you misunderstand. Sin is forgiven, yes. But we need to be actually transformed. Neither you nor I are yet prepared for standing before God. God doesn't want to just see us through Jesus-colored glasses ... His plan is to actually and really heal us from all of the effects of sin.

It is deeper than just "imputed righteousness" ... to be honest, I wouldn't want to go through eternity thinking "this is as good as it gets". Our souls are not yet perfected. But they will be, if we are in Christ.

Catholics have the doctrine of purgatory to explain how this happens. Orthodox don't explain how it happens. Protestants often don't expect it to happen at all? That is our difference.

God be with you.

As a matter of fact , I AM prepared to stand before God at this very instant ,if one is not prepared at any instant to stand before Jesus, one will never be prepared, they
Were blinded as to what saved them and what “purified “ them and what “transformed “ them all along.They don’t believe the first half of Paul’s Gospel thAt saves.....” that Jesus died for our sins”. That means All of the them.if God “remembers our sins no more” if you want to dredge them up and on top of that be punished for them your punishment may be an eternal one

 

[~Anastasia~]

As a matter of fact , I AM prepared to stand before God at this very instant ,if one is not prepared at any instant to stand before Jesus, one will never be prepared, they
Were blinded as to what saved them and what “purified “ them and what “transformed “ them all along.They don’t believe the first half of Paul’s Gospel thAt saves.....” that Jesus died for our sins”. That means All of the them.if God “remembers our sins no more” if you want to dredge them up and on top of that be punished for them your punishment may be an eternal one

Forgive me ... I don't really have time to go into all of this if there isn't a reason. And that really was my mistake in saying "stand before God".

I should have asked, if anything - do you want to spend eternity exactly as you are now, in your spirit?

But I understand if you consider all the negative stuff to be connected only to the flesh, which will be changed.

If you're interested I'll try to explain. But I'm not trying to argue anything or change anyone's mind.

I'm in two threads on the same topic and may be mixing them up.

 

[~Anastasia~]

That IS what the theory and doctrine of Purgatory is all about! Of course I have to mention that fact when people ask what Purgatory is, if it's real, and all of that.


But first you questioned why I didn't completely agree with your answer to another member in which you agreed with some Roman Catholic claims that are used to support Purgatory--that business about the need for special treatment making us perfect through punishment, for example.

Just because we believe that we must be changed and healed of all our sinful tendencies (like Catholics) doesn't mean we believev in purgatory (like Catholics).

I honestly thought all Protestants would likewise agree we need to be changed and not carry our sinful baggage into eternity with us. I thought we ALL believed that. But that doesn't mean we all believe in purgatory. So I can't understand why it keeps getting dragged back to that.

 

[Albion]

I honestly thought all Protestants would likewise agree we need to be changed and not carry our sinful baggage into eternity with us.

We do believe that we will all be changed. That isn't the issue.

But that doesn't mean we all believe in purgatory. So I can't understand why it keeps getting dragged back to that.

It isn't being dragged anywhere. I believed you the first time you said you don't believe in Purgatory.

Indeed, I already knew that Orthodox Christians do not have Purgatory in their belief system, so when you said you don't believe in Purgatory, that was what I would have expected.

 

[~Anastasia~]

We do believe that we will all be changed. That isn't the issue.


It isn't being dragged anywhere. I believed you the first time you said you don't believe in Purgatory.

Indeed, I already knew that Orthodox Christians do not have Purgatory in their belief system, so when you said you don't believe in Purgatory, that was what I would have expected.

Ok.

In that case, I don't understand why you seemed to read purgatory into what I did say? But it's not worth digging back through lol.

 

[Albion]

Ok.

In that case, I don't understand why you seemed to read purgatory into what I did say? .

I didn't (as was explained the last time you said this same thing).

 

[~Anastasia~]

I didn't (as was explained the last time you said this same thing).

Ok.

 

[frettr00]

I know that my father has had some experiences where the lord has asked him to pray for souls in Purgatory. Various saints have had experiences related to Purgatory as well. I regularly pray for souls in Purgatory because I believe it does exist. I think many people go there first with only a few going directly to Heaven.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Forgive me ... I don't really have time to go into all of this if there isn't a reason. And that really was my mistake in saying "stand before God".

I should have asked, if anything - do you want to spend eternity exactly as you are now, in your spirit?

But I understand if you consider all the negative stuff to be connected only to the flesh, which will be changed.

If you're interested I'll try to explain. But I'm not trying to argue anything or change anyone's mind.

I'm in two threads on the same topic and may be mixing them up.

Lol....I know what you mean by being mixed up in here....at any given moment I got two or three things going on in here, plus other forum sites that I belong to—- it would be a sin to deprive the world of my vast,unquestionable hoard of knowledge...haha—a little joke there I believe that anything that needs to be changed will be changed “ in an instant” . Every thing about me is corruptible, and that is why The same God that saved me and made me fit for Heaven will have me put on “incorruptible”.... body,soul and spirit.No need to send me to some Fantasy Land to accomplish anything. I could claim that God is going to take our clothes and leave us naked in the coldest part of Siberia to “purge “ us of whatever....it ain’t Biblical,hence it is heresy. all it does is allow partial believers of the gospel to sleep better at night.God bless

 

[~Anastasia~]

Lol....I know what you mean by being mixed up in here....at any given moment I got two or three things going on in here, plus other forum sites that I belong to—- it would be a sin to deprive the world of my vast,unquestionable hoard of knowledge...haha—a little joke there I believe that anything that needs to be changed will be changed “ in an instant” . Every thing about me is corruptible, and that is why The same God that saved me and made me fit for Heaven will have me put on “incorruptible”.... body,soul and spirit.No need to send me to some Fantasy Land to accomplish anything. I could claim that God is going to take our clothes and leave us naked in the coldest part of Siberia to “purge “ us of whatever....it ain’t Biblical,hence it is heresy. all it does is allow partial believers of the gospel to sleep better at night.God bless

God bless you also.

Yes, we agree that it may well be that God would complete any necesssary purging in an instant. That is more likely than anything protracted. Our (Orthodox) position is that we don't know exactly how God will accomplish it or how long it will take ir what it will feel like. Or even if that question would be answered in exactly the same way for each person. We simply are not dogmatic about any of these things. As far as I know any speculation on that exact question is post-Apostolic. But we do in fact know that physical bodies will be changed in an instant.


(My mistake, I thought I hit "post" earlier. I'm glad it's still showing up in my reply box. I hope this was all I meant to say.)

Oh ... now I see. I wanted to think a bit more about "allowing partial believers of the Gospel to sleep better at night". I was a bit curious about that. Seems more comforting not to have to come up with ideas about suffering to supposedly cleanse oneself. I mean only - seems that it would make you sleep worse at night, not better. Anyway, not an important issue. If you have more to say on it, I'm interested to listen, but I can let it go too.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Please refer to my post #149 in the thread “What is the correct religion”. You will get a kick out of it

 

[amariselle]

There's a pretty good explanation of the reality and need for Purgatory in this link.

Catholic Bible 101

If there is no Purgatory, then we have the absurd situation of a serial murderer (or an Adolf Hitler to take a more extreme example) who makes a sincere deathbed confession, and then waltzes straight into heaven, without in his life ever having made any attempt at personal santification.

So, what (or who) saves a person then? Jesus Christ, or one's own "attempt at personal sanctification"?

Hitler's rages, his blaming of other people, his cruelty, his vindictiveness - all is suddenly sweetness and light, without his ever having made one ounce of effort to reform his character, other than a last minute realisation of what a mongrel he'd really been.

In other words, "God, have mercy on me a sinner!" is not enough?

Scripture is clear, all have fallen short of the glory of God.

Is one saved by Jesus Christ, or by one's own "effort to reform his character"?

Is it grace or is it works?

Is salvation a gift, or a reward?

It can't be both.

No problem - just come straight in!

Well, that is the invitation offered to all who do the "will of the Father" and believe on the Son. See, we get "in" because of His righteousness, not our own. (Which Scripture compares to "filthy rags".)

NOBODY gets into heaven unless they are literally perfect, and this means purfication after death if necessary.

Where does Scripture discuss this "purification after death"?

And if Scripture tells us (and it does) that Christ purged our sins, that His blood washes away sins, that He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, why the need for further "purification" of sins after death?

It would seem, in that case, that Christ's blood isn't sufficient to wash away sin after all, as more is apparently needed.

Scripture of course, is clear.

Christ's death on the cross means we are not condemned - it doesn't mean we are automatically made pure.

Scripture says otherwise.

I don't know about you, but I think I sin every day, usually in a venial way, but sometimes more seriously.

Absolutely, in the "flesh" we do indeed sin every day. The "inner man", the new creation we are in Christ, having been born again, is without sin. And we stand in Christ's righteousness, being "in" Him.

As for the seriousness of sin, it is all mortal. (The wages of sin is death)This is why we need our Saviour. He is the only hope of salvation. (The gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ)

And this "flesh", this earthly body, will either die and be raised incorruptible and immortal or be instantly transformed into such at Christ's return. (This corruption must put on incorruption, and this mortal, immortality).

The man who wasn't even properly dressed for the heavenly wedding got thrown out on his ear. I believe that parable at least contained an inbuilt reference to Purgatory.

Actually, that parable referred to a man who had not believed and "put on Christ." Christ Jesus is our "garment." (And we have been washed clean by the blood of the Lamb).

All who are in Christ through faith have been saved, have passed from death to life and are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

God will never leave us or forsake us, and nothing will take us out of His hand. We have been "bought at a price", and belong to Him. He is faithful, even when we fail and are not, and He "everliveth to make intercession for us."

 

[concretecamper]

Although Augustine had some encouraging words, he was not infallible.

I never said Augustine was infallible.

The ultimate infallible authority for the Christian is the word of God

Yes, that has been posted countless time in CF. However, no one has ever been able to produce scriptural backup