A question about Purgatory.

[Petros2015]

You could torture a wongdoer forever, but doing that won't make him into an angel!

It's like the military says, "if you want to make an omelette, sometimes you gotta kill a few chickens..."

 

[concretecamper]

Does the Bible speak about Purgatory? My friend's that are Catholic has told me about this place between Heaven and Hell.

Matthew Chapter 12
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

"Nor in the world to come. From these words St. Augustine (De Civ. lib. xxi. chap. 13.) and St. Gregory (Dial. iv, chap. 39.) gather, that some sins may be remitted in the world to come; and consequently that there is a purgatory, or a middle place. (Challoner) --- St. Augustine says these words would not be true, if some sins were not forgiven in the world to come; and St. Gregory says, we are to believe from these words in the existence of the fire of purgatory, to expiate our smaller offences, before the day of judgment. St. Isidore and Ven. Bede say the same. St. Bernard, speaking of heretics, says, they do not believe in purgatory: let them then inquire of our Saviour, what he meant by these words. --- It is well known that Ven. Bede, on his death-bed, bestowed several small tokens to the monks who were present, that they might remember to pray for his soul in the holy sacrifice of the mass. (Haydock)

ST. MATTHEW - Chapter 12

 

[Albion]

Matthew Chapter 12
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

"Nor in the world to come. From these words St. Augustine (De Civ. lib. xxi. chap. 13.) and St. Gregory (Dial. iv, chap. 39.) gather, that some sins may be remitted in the world to come; and consequently that there is a purgatory, or a middle place.
ST. MATTHEW - Chapter 12

There are two problems there.

1. This is speculation. It's Augustine's speculation all right, but that doesn't make it a true teaching by any denomination's reckoning, not even the RCC.

2. There is no justification for saying that this wording--some sins shall not be forgiven in either this world or the next--means that some WILL be forgiven in the next! It more clearly means that they won't be forgiven, period. Even if it did mean what you want it to mean, the idea that this refers to Purgatory, as defined by the Catholic Church, is wishful thinking. It is just as possible that the forgiveness will occur in some other way.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The so-called “ purging “ took place 2000 years ago , but then maybe the precious Blood of our Saviour was inadequate to remove sin....kinda like goats that could “ cover” sin for a year, but could not remove it once and for all.Poor old misguided John the Baptist was wrong when he said “ Behold the Lamb of God that TAKETH AWAY the sins of the world”. I mean,we’ve all heard about that “Good News”, but this stuff is crazy! I “ insist that Jesus share some of His glory for all the stuff I did, you know...that “ purging” I endured.

No, I'm afraid you misunderstand. Sin is forgiven, yes. But we need to be actually transformed. Neither you nor I are yet prepared for standing before God. God doesn't want to just see us through Jesus-colored glasses ... His plan is to actually and really heal us from all of the effects of sin.

It is deeper than just "imputed righteousness" ... to be honest, I wouldn't want to go through eternity thinking "this is as good as it gets". Our souls are not yet perfected. But they will be, if we are in Christ.

Catholics have the doctrine of purgatory to explain how this happens. Orthodox don't explain how it happens. Protestants often don't expect it to happen at all? That is our difference.

God be with you.

 

[Albion]

No, I'm afraid you misunderstand. Sin is forgiven, yes. But we need to be actually transformed. Neither you nor I are yet prepared for standing before God. God doesn't want to just see us through Jesus-colored glasses ... His plan is to actually and really heal us from all of the effects of sin.

But everything we are given to believe is that we will stand before God as we are, and we'll face the music for what we did, and be judged accordingly. Your post makes it look like we'll be completely retooled (through suffering in the afterlife) and made blameless (and, as a result, undeniably deserving of Heaven) before we have to stand in front of God to account for our works. That would not really be any kind of "immediate judgment."

 

[Basil the Great]

What is most interesting is that even some Catholics are downplaying the idea of Purgatory anymore, including even some in the cloth. I recall when former Sen. Byrd of WV passed away. He was not even a Catholic and yet when he died, a Catholic Bishop from WV strongly implied that Sen. Byrd was in Heaven, apparently ignoring the doctrine of Purgatory. However, the Bishop's statement did not change the fact that Purgatory remains a Catholic doctrine. The Purgatory doctrine would not be so bad if it was not tied in with indulgences and if it was not so connected to some form of punishment, plus the implication that some people might have to spend a very long time in Purgatory, before being allowed into Heaven.

What is noteworthy is that the Catholic Purgatory might well have it's roots in Judaism, though that is probably uncertain. I did some research on Jewish views of the afterlife sometime back and found that most Jews who have believed in an Intermediate State have clung to the belief that God would not require anyone to spend more than a year there, before moving on to Heaven. Now I am not aware of Catholic teaching being specific on the length of time one might spend in Purgatory, but the implication is certainly there that some might be held in Purgatory for much longer than one year.

 

[Albion]

hmm...whose Scriptural interpretation should I consider more relevant.....one of the greatest minds the Church has ever known or a know anti-Catholic on CF?

Repeat to yourself how a doctrine comes to be a doctrine in your church. Tradition? Scripture? Magisterium? You will search in vain for "If Augustine said it...."

 

[JoeP222w]

Besides that, what makes punishment be a means of achieving "perfection?" There is no inherent connection between the two. You could torture a wongdoer forever, but doing that won't make him into an angel!

I agree!

 

[concretecamper]

Repeat to yourself how a doctrine comes to be a doctrine in your church. Tradition? Scripture? Magisterium? You will search in vain for "If Augustine said it...."

You continue to misrepresent what is said as well as what the Church teaches. I never implied that doctrine is based upon "if Augustine said it". He is just way more credible than your opinions. <Staff Edit>

 

[Albion]

What is most interesting is that even some Catholics are downplaying the idea of Purgatory anymore, including even some in the cloth. .

That's absolutely true, and it's because the laity won't buy this Medieval clap-trap anymore.

So because "the church that never changes" has to accommodate them--just as she was forced to do with Limbo and re-marriage--the clergy continue to insist that there IS a
Purgatory, even while they have completely redefined it into something not particularly worrisome. Ergo, change but not admitted to. That's why Purgatory is now often called a "celestial washroom" whereas it was, for 500 years, "Just like Hell but not forever."

 

[JoeP222w]

Matthew Chapter 12
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

"Nor in the world to come. From these words St. Augustine (De Civ. lib. xxi. chap. 13.) and St. Gregory (Dial. iv, chap. 39.) gather, that some sins may be remitted in the world to come; and consequently that there is a purgatory, or a middle place. (Challoner) --- St. Augustine says these words would not be true, if some sins were not forgiven in the world to come; and St. Gregory says, we are to believe from these words in the existence of the fire of purgatory, to expiate our smaller offences, before the day of judgment. St. Isidore and Ven. Bede say the same. St. Bernard, speaking of heretics, says, they do not believe in purgatory: let them then inquire of our Saviour, what he meant by these words. --- It is well known that Ven. Bede, on his death-bed, bestowed several small tokens to the monks who were present, that they might remember to pray for his soul in the holy sacrifice of the mass. (Haydock)

ST. MATTHEW - Chapter 12

Although Augustine had some encouraging words, he was not infallible. Nor is any other early church father infallible. The ultimate infallible authority for the Christian is the word of God, not the word of man.

 

[Ancient of Days]

There's a pretty good explanation of the reality and need for Purgatory in this link.

Catholic Bible 101

If there is no Purgatory, then we have the absurd situation of a serial murderer (or an Adolf Hitler to take a more extreme example) who makes a sincere deathbed confession, and then waltzes straight into heaven, without in his life ever having made any attempt at personal sanctification.
Logical fallacy. Sin is sin, it only takes one sin to be apart from God. Serial killers and Hitler are no worse than me or you since both of us HAVE sinned. Even Jesus said "Why do you call me good, only God alone is Good" He knew that in our flesh there is no good.

Hitler's rages, his blaming of other people, his cruelty, his vindictiveness - all is suddenly sweetness and light, without his ever having made one ounce of effort to reform his character, other than a last minute realization of what a mongrel he'd really been.

No problem - just come straight in!

NOBODY gets into heaven unless they are literally perfect, and this means purification after death if necessary. Christ's death on the cross means we are not condemned - it doesn't mean we are automatically made pure. I don't know about you, but I think I sin every day, usually in a venial way, but sometimes more seriously.
Wrong. Purification from sins comes at the point when we confess with our mouths and believe in our hearts that Jesus Christ died for our sins. At that moment we are washed clean from all of our sins, past, present and future by the blood of the Lamb of God. Purgatory suggests that Christ's death on the cross was insufficient. He died ONCE for ALL.

The man who wasn't even properly dressed for the heavenly wedding got thrown out on his ear. I believe that parable at least contained an inbuilt reference to Purgatory.

"All purgatory does is to detach you from your love of sin, and to pay your debt to God for all of the sins that you have committed while alive on earth. "

This is wrong. The sacrifice Christ made on the cross pays the sin debt IN FULL. "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

 

[Albion]

What is noteworthy is that the Catholic Purgatory might well have it's roots in Judaism, though that is probably uncertain. I did some research on Jewish views of the afterlife sometime back and found that most Jews who have believed in an Intermediate State have clung to the belief that God would not require anyone to spend more than a year there, before moving on to Heaven. Now I am not aware of Catholic teaching being specific on the length of time one might spend in Purgatory, but the implication is certainly there that some might be held in Purgatory for much longer than one year.

That is a strong thesis, given that the main "proof" of some kind of Purgatory that the RCC offers is a passage in 2 Maccabees that simply states that some Jews prayed for a fallen colleague that he might be release from his sins.

As for the length of time in Purgatory, the RCC for centuries taught--and cited comments by some of its saints to this effect--that many if not most people would be in Purgatory until the end of the world.

 

[Ancient of Days]

"No, I'm afraid you misunderstand. Sin is forgiven, yes. But we need to be actually be transformed. Neither you nor I are yet prepared for standing before God. God doesn't want to just see us through Jesus-colored glasses ... His plan is to actually and really heal us from all of the effects of sin."

This is untrue. I kneel before the living God daily, many times a day I stand before his throne. In fact when he looks at me he HAS to look at me through the blood of his son, Jesus Christ. That IS the ONLY way I can come before him to find grace and help in my times of prayer.

" His plan is to actually and really heal us from all of the effects of sin."

The effects of sin ARE consequences of our decisions to sin. We ARE responsible for the actions we take in life whether they are right or wrong.

 

[~Anastasia~]

But everything we are given to believe is that we will stand before God as we are, and we'll face the music for what we did, and be judged accordingly. Your post makes it look like we'll be completely retooled (through suffering in the afterlife) and made blameless (and, as a result, undeniably deserving of Heaven) before we have to stand in front of God to account for our works. That would not really be any kind of "immediate judgment."

You seem to be reading all of what you say into my post. I am not sure how to respond ..l I think you're reading purgatory into my post, which I didn't say.

We will be perfected, yes. How? Well, we believe that process starts in this life, through our cooperation with God's grace. What Protestants often call "sanctification". But we don't become completely sanctified in this life.

That process will be completed. When? We don't know. Perhaps in death. Perhaps after death. Certainly it will reach a necessary threshold before we enter the glory of life in the age to come.

How? Again, we don't know. I don't know why you think "through suffering" is implied in my post. We don't teach this. Might it be painful to the soul? It might be. It might not be. But we don't have a doctrine that ages of suffering are necessary. In fact, if it were, what would happen to all those who die very near the time of the Second Coming? How could they then be perfected? We simply don't know how God does this, only that He does, and we don't speculate or need purgatory to explain it.

Made blameless? I wouldn't use that term either. If by "blame" you refer to a legal justification (and it seems you do, because you tie it to "deserving heaven") ... that's not what I'm talking about at all. As far as the "legal part" ... God forgives. That is not our (Orthodox) greater focus though, as it tends to be in the west. I'm talking about God healing, making us really like Christ, such that we won't miss any of the things that tend to entice our souls in this life, won't have any of the vestiges of any wrong desire whatsoever - no pride, no vanity, no past hurt, no bitterness, no thousand other things that weigh down our spirits in this life. We will be totally freed of the effects of sin on our soul, with no leftover tendencies, hurts, wrong desires or thoughts. We will be finally and fully healed, and able to enjoy the presence of and communion with God. We will become fully partakers of the divine nature (though this does not mean that we become divine).

I was taught as a Protestant that it was the flesh (body) through which all temptation happened, and that simply being set free from that evil body was going to result in perfect healing of the spirit. God may in fact do it in an instant at that time. But the truth is, not all temptation comes only through the body. Temptation comes through our souls too ... some of the greater ones. The physical body isn't subject to pride. That's the soul. And a spirit devoid of its body isn't necessarily freed from all sin. If that were true, then why would anyone ever be condemned? Why would God judge a person evil in life who was suddenly perfect because he was now divorced from his body?

The truth is, we are who we are in our spirits. If we hate God, we will carry that when we leave our body. And we will suffer in the afterlife as a result.

I'm not explaining how or when God does these things. Everything you read in seems to be purgatory, laid over what I said ... which was not what I was saying. Just wanted to make that clear.

God be with you.

 

[~Anastasia~]

"No, I'm afraid you misunderstand. Sin is forgiven, yes. But we need to be actually be transformed. Neither you nor I are yet prepared for standing before God. God doesn't want to just see us through Jesus-colored glasses ... His plan is to actually and really heal us from all of the effects of sin."

This is untrue. I kneel before the living God daily, many times a day I stand before his throne. In fact when he looks at me he HAS to look at me through the blood of his son, Jesus Christ. That IS the ONLY way I can come before him to find grace and help in my times of prayer.

" His plan is to actually and really heal us from all of the effects of sin."

The effects of sin ARE consequences of our decisions to sin. We ARE responsible for the actions we take in life whether they are right or wrong.

No desire to argue. And I'm aware of Protestant theology.

I would only ask ... do you expect to be further healed from the effects of sin, or do you expect to spend all eternity just as you are now, still subject to the effects of sin, only ... God won't notice or hold it against you?

We believe it will be better than that. That we will be perfectly and fully healed from all the effects of sin that we continue to experience, even after conversion.

God be with you.

 

[Ancient of Days]

"No desire to argue. And I'm aware of Protestant theology."
I don't know what Protestant theology is, I only speak from the word of God.
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" 2 Timothy 3:16

"I would only ask ... do you expect to be further healed from the effects of sin, or do you expect to spend all eternity just as you are now, still subject to the effects of sin, only ... God won't notice or hold it against you?"

Have you not read? For it is written: 1 Corinthians
Chapter 15

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ

I don't suffer the "effects" of sin if I choose not to sin.

"We believe it will be better than that. That we will be perfectly and fully healed from all the effects of sin that we continue to experience, even after conversion.

God be with you."

 

[Ancient of Days]

I don't think we are arguing, just talking...

 

[~Anastasia~]

The Purgatory doctrine would not be so bad if it was not tied in with indulgences and if it was not so connected to some form of punishment, plus the implication that some people might have to spend a very long time in Purgatory, before being allowed into Heaven.

LOL, your point reminds me of something. Orthodoxy has its dogmas that provide the borders of what we MUST believe (such as the Holy Trinity, Virgin birth, and more), but within those borders we are allowed broad freedom of belief.

Many Catholics become Orthodox, and they may be told that they can keep their belief in purgatory if they want ... as long as they don't imagine it necessarily involves painful punishment, can't be affected by supposed "merits" provided by the Church or other indulgences, or must necessarily involve ages of time, or that it is a place God created in order to carry out these punishments. But other than that, they can believe in it.

(It is because we don't believe in the absolute necessity of temporal punishment for forgiven sins, or "merits" or measured grace in any form.)

 

[~Anastasia~]

"No desire to argue. And I'm aware of Protestant theology."
I don't know what Protestant theology is, I only speak from the word of God.
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" 2 Timothy 3:16

"I would only ask ... do you expect to be further healed from the effects of sin, or do you expect to spend all eternity just as you are now, still subject to the effects of sin, only ... God won't notice or hold it against you?"

Have you not read? For it is written: 1 Corinthians
Chapter 15

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ

I don't suffer the "effects" of sin if I choose not to sin.

"We believe it will be better than that. That we will be perfectly and fully healed from all the effects of sin that we continue to experience, even after conversion.

God be with you."

Sorry, it's hard to piece together quotes from your post. And no, I'm not arguing. I try never to, though it's easy to misunderstand tone in the forums.

Your quote refers to the physical body being changed. My comments have been about the soul of man.

And yes, our beliefs are imminently Scriptural. It cannot be otherwise.

When I say effects of sin ... if someone cuts you off in traffic, do you ever experience a flash of irritation, or anger? That's just one example. It grows typically from pride, thinking our rights have been violated.

Thank God there will be no traffic jams in the life of the age to come!

But that little bit (or in some folks big bit) of who they are that causes them to react in that way, to whatever degree, won't be there anymore. It - and thousands of like tendencies, particular to each of us (so you might not have the one I mentioned, but it's common) - it and thousands if tendencies like it will be healed, no longer have any effect on us. We will be perfectly like Christ.

And if we are honest with ourselves, none of us claim to be perfectly like Christ in spirit in this life.

God be with you.