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A question about Purgatory.

oOKnights TemplarOo

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But the Bible is not forbidden in Scriptures nor by Scriptures.
Take all Scripture when seeking the Truth.
Making false ideas appear true by pulling out some, and by ignoring others that show it is false, doesn't work God's Plan nor God's Purpose.

I make the point, just because a certain word does not appear in Scripture then it is discredited when it suits the believer. It has always been The Church > Oral Tradition > The Bible > Oral Tradition. 2 Tim. 4:3 – this is a warning on following our own desires and not the teachings of God. It is not a cafeteria where we pick and choose. We must humble ourselves and accept all of Christ’s teachings which He gives us through His Church.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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We must humble ourselves and accept all of Christ’s teachings which He gives us through His Church.
It seems to ekklesia abiding in union with Jesus that this idea is actually (often or always?) rebellion against YHVH'S WORD and may entail heresy.

If someone is humble before YHVH, in Christ Jesus as Savior and Lord, YHVH sets them free from all possible errors, apostasy, rebellion, and guilt and shame and penalties,
to live truly free in Christ, Rejoicing in union in Him as His Word Says.
 
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oOKnights TemplarOo

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It seems to ekklesia abiding in union with Jesus that this idea is actually (often or always?) rebellion against YHVH'S WORD and may entail heresy.

If someone is humble before YHVH, in Christ Jesus as Savior and Lord, YHVH sets them free from all possible errors, apostasy, rebellion, and guilt and shame and penalties,
to live truly free in Christ, Rejoicing in union in Him as His Word Says.

Eph. 3:20 – God’s glory is manifested in the Church by the power of the Spirit that works within the Church’s leaders.

John 6:39 – Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.

James 5:19-20 – we can be in the truth, and then wander from the truth which means death, unless we are brought back. (No wonder Luther hated the Epistle of James)
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Eph. 3:20 – God’s glory is manifested in the Church by the power of the Spirit that works within the Church’s leaders.

John 6:39 – Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.

James 5:19-20 – we can be in the truth, and then wander from the truth which means death, unless we are brought back. (No wonder Luther hated the Epistle of James)
Unless I'm mistaken, you have mistaken "church" in Scripture for some group you promote. Ekklesia and "Church" are not identical most of the time, if ever.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Acts 11:26 says that “Barnabas and Saul met with the church [ekklesia]” in Antioch.

Yes indeed like you said!
You still don't get it. "ekklesia" is correct.
Your previous posts about "Church" are not correct. Scripture you quoted has nothing to do with Church you refer to.
 
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oOKnights TemplarOo

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You still don't get it. "ekklesia" is correct.
Your previous posts about "Church" are not correct. Scripture you quoted has nothing to do with Church you refer to.

I get Scriptures ok Acts 11:26 καὶ εὑρὼν ἤγαγεν εἰς Ἀντιόχειαν. ἐγένετο δὲ αὐτοῖς καὶ ἐνιαυτὸν ὅλον συναχθῆναι ἐν τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ καὶ διδάξαι ὄχλον ἱκανόν, χρηματίσαι τε πρώτως ἐν Ἀντιοχείᾳ τοὺς μαθητὰς Χριστιανούς.

Tell me what I am getting wrong?
Enlighten me please. I am here to learn.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I get Scriptures ok Acts 11:26 καὶ εὑρὼν ἤγαγεν εἰς Ἀντιόχειαν. ἐγένετο δὲ αὐτοῖς καὶ ἐνιαυτὸν ὅλον συναχθῆναι ἐν τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ καὶ διδάξαι ὄχλον ἱκανόν, χρηματίσαι τε πρώτως ἐν Ἀντιοχείᾳ τοὺς μαθητὰς Χριστιανούς.

Tell me what I am getting wrong?
Enlighten me please. I am here to learn.
I am not authorized to teach you. Only to alert others that what you posted in previous posts was in error, and if you learn this also, if YHVH permits, good - ALL PRAISE BE TO HIM THROUGH CHRIST JESUS ! .
 
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oOKnights TemplarOo

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I am not authorized to teach you. Only to alert others that what you posted in previous posts was in error, and if you learn this also, if YHVH permits, good - ALL PRAISE BE TO HIM THROUGH CHRIST JESUS ! .

I simply ask you to point out my error. You are not authorized to teach me but you say I am in error :scratch:
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I simply ask you to point out my error. You are not authorized to teach me but you say I am in error :scratch:
I'm not authorized to test your driving skills, nor to teach you to drive,
but if you're headed down a highway that goes to destruction, I can warn you. It is up to YHVH whether anyone can or should or will be taught, and yes, even if anyone can accept His Warning. He Knows Perfectly, and Reveals Salvation to whom He Pleases (like little children), and He Hides Salvation from whom He Pleases, as He Says in His Word. No one can change His Word. No one can understand His Word unless He Grants this from Heaven.
 
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oOKnights TemplarOo

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I'm not authorized to test your driving skills, nor to teach you to drive,
but if you're headed down a highway that goes to destruction, I can warn you. It is up to YHVH whether anyone can or should or will be taught, and yes, even if anyone can accept His Warning. He Knows Perfectly, and Reveals Salvation to whom He Pleases (like little children), and He Hides Salvation from whom He Pleases, as He Says in His Word. No one can change His Word. No one can understand His Word unless He Grants this from Heaven.

Simply point out my error! You have refuted my posts up until now and taken them way off topic so far. why stop now?

You commit a False Analogy: Comparing two things as if they are parallel when they are not really the same at all.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Simply point out my error! You have refuted my posts up until now and taken them way off topic so far. why stop now?

You commit a False Analogy: Comparing two things as if they are parallel when they are not really the same at all.
Nothing false in my posts. Go back in the thread and read them again, IF you want to know. Ask YHVH for His Understanding, as He is the Only One Who is Able to Grant this.
 
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oOKnights TemplarOo

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Nothing false in my posts. Go back in the thread and read them again, IF you want to know. Ask YHVH for His Understanding, as He is the Only One Who is Able to Grant this.

Sorry! It comes across to me that you see me as some sort of enemy. My analogy point was regarding your previous post. I follow the teachings of Christ, being a member of the Mystical Body of Christ (Acts 9:1-5). You say I am in error, then tell me to go to God to seek the answer to that error.

Matt. 18:17-18 – the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith.

Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14,22 – the early Church is identified as the “Way”

Isa. 35:8, 54:13-17 – this prophecy refers to the Church as the Holy Way where sons will be taught by God and they will not err. The Church has been given the gift of infallibility when teaching about faith and morals, where her sons are taught directly by God and will not err.

John 14:26 – Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would teach the Church (the apostles and successors) all things regarding the faith. This means that the Church can teach us the right moral positions on such things as in vitro fertilization, cloning and other issues that are not addressed in the Bible. After all, these issues of morality are necessary for our salvation, and God would not leave such important issues to be decided by us sinners without His divine assistance.

Sorry you cannot see the Divine nature of the Church. I do. It is the Bride of Christ that teaches me in understanding Scripture. Not me reading alone! But by the Magisterium of Mother Church. For forty days after His Resurrection, Jesus taught the leadership of His Church (Acts 1:2-3). So these are not only the teachings of men on faith and morals; these are the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Accept or reject these teachings. The God given gift of "Free Will". Has been given to everyone. Including those with an unillumined mind.
 
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drjean

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Regardless of all the misrepresentations of Scripture I find in this thread, and regardless of whether or not you believe purgatory did at some time exist...there is now no purgatory.

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hebrews 1:3
 
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oOKnights TemplarOo

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Regardless of all the misrepresentations of Scripture I find in this thread, and regardless of whether or not you believe purgatory did at some time exist...there is now no purgatory.


Hebrews 1:3

Until Jesus returns for His Bride. There will always be purgatory. I site Scriptural proof. From His Bride Herself. Original sin is not personal sin!

Jesus came to overcome original sin. Foretold in Genesis 3:15.
 
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drjean

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Jesus says that one who believes that they must do something for salvation along with accepting God's Gift of Himself (Jesus) is not going to heaven. That is the gospel. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done..."

The term "purged" in that verse in Hebrews is in past tense at it's core. If one cannot believe that, then the accompanying verbiage is also discounted, that being that CHRIST is the only way to heaven, HE is our salvation and not we, ourselves. "For all have sinned and COME SHORT of the glory of God". No matter what man tries to do for salvation he cannot save himself. A filthy rag cannot make itself clean,
that requires a perfect Cleanser.

Christ has purged us of all sin.

This refers to our spirit. The flesh is corrupted and will dissolve in time. The energy of our spirit lives eternally either in heaven or hell---

to those who are concerned about the condition they now live in, then perhaps they either need to accept Christ's perfection and have faith "once and for all", or strengthen their knowledge and have faith that God keeps His promises. God also never tells us to do something or be some way we cannot... through Him. "Have the mind of Christ" "Let this mind be also in you" "Have not the Faith of THE LORD JESUS CHRIST (with respect of persons...)" "Lay aside every weight" "Lay aside the sin that doth so easily beset us"... the latter I refer to the act of guilt and I firmly believe that it is a work of the devil that keeps believers from realizing they are clothed in the righteousness of Christ and have no sin before God NOW. That guilt keeps people focussed upon what they are trying to do to BE Christians instead of going about the business of God in His power, worshipping before the throne and not being unable to talk to GOD face to face because of the guilt they insist upon carrying around.

Continue to read, without the religious study books that teach the religion's view. Find those who study God's Word through a knowledge of the languages and exegesis... better yet, obtain Strongs and Ungers and those like and study these things for yourself in God's Word---- and allow the Spirit to teach you, not man who has created religion.

Peace.
 
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oOKnights TemplarOo

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Hebrews 1:1- 2:4 — The Exordium (Prologue) - It must be remembered that the exordium as the first sentence in the Greek text—a very long first sentence some translations divided it into 3 sentences. Also present in the Greek text is the poetic device of alliteration in the repetition of the "p" sound—a sound that would have been repeated in the listener's ear as this document was read to faith communities. During the Mass. As in Sacred Scripture, Old Testament and New, was meant to be read aloud to the faithful.

In verse 3 - How has the Son purged sins which allows Him the privileged position at God's right hand? These passages in Hebrews 1:1-4 reveal the mission, the divine nature and the power of God the Son. The prophet Isaiah wrote in the 8th century BC: It was Yahweh's good pleasure to crush him with pain; if he gives his life as a sin offering.. [Isaiah 53:10a ]. St. Peter confirmed and expanded on this revelation when he wrote in 1 Peter 1:18-20, For you know that the price of your ransom from the futile way of life handed down from your ancestors was paid, not in anything perishable like silver or gold, but in precious blood as of a blameless and spotless lamb, Christ. He was marked out before the world was made, and was revealed at the final point of time for your sake. Through him you now have faith in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory for this very purpose—that your faith and hope should be in God. In declaring that the Son enjoys the privilege of being seated at the "right hand" of God the inspired writer evokes in his audience the connection to the great Messianic psalms of King David, Psalm 110, which will be the basis of one of the central themes of this discourse: Yahweh declared to my Lord (Adonai), 'Take your seat at my right hand, till I have made your enemies your footstool. Yahweh will stretch out the scepter of your power; from Zion you will rule your foes all around you. Royal dignity has been yours from the day of your birth, sacred honour from the womb, from the dawn of your youth. Yahweh has sworn an oath he will never retract, you are a priest for ever of the order of Melchizedek. Psalm 110:1-4.

Christ has purged us of all sin.

Jesus came to overcome Original Sin. That is why He is called the second Adam and Mary the second Eve. Just as all die in Adam, so in Christ all will be brought to life.

In your statement you now have issues with:
Matt. 7:18 – Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.Matt. 7:21 – all those who say “Lord, Lord” on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.

Matt. 12:30-32 – Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against Him, therefore (the Greek for “therefore” is “dia toutos” which means “through this”) blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus’ grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.

Matt. 22:14 – Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God’s banquet, but was cast out.

Luke 8:13 – Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.

Luke 12:42-46 – we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.

John 6:70-71 – Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.

John 15:1-10 – we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don’t bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.

John 17:12 – we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.
John 6:40 – everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person “continues” to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.

Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).

Acts 7:51 – you stiff-necked people, you always resist the Holy Spirit. We, by our own freewill, can resist God and His grace, and turn away from Him.

Rom. 11:20-23 – in expounding on Jesus’ teaching in John 15, Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23). Hence, those justified before God can fall away from the faith and lose their salvation (be “cut off”). Paul also says that those who are cut off can be grafted back in if they do not persist in their unbelief, for God has the power to graft them in again (v.23). These verses are devastating to the “once saved, always saved” position.

And so on........You now have contradictory issues with these and other passages!
 
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drjean

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And so on........You now have contradictory issues with these and other passages!

Not in the least, as God's Word is not so.

Many of your quotes are from Jesus as He addressed the Jews. That is not our gospel, "Paul's gospel" as Jesus gave to him for us.

If you believe what you have written about Paul's addressing those at Rome, then you, my friend have the contradictions to Scripture. Paul writes that a believer is justified by faith--- but faith in? In Jesus! Our justification comes not from works but through Christ. His expounding is of Jesus' Words to the Jews yes, but also to the Gentiles who are/can be grafted into the vine through belief.

Here's a more clear reading of this Scripture:
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 11:11-31 - English Standard Version

if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in
means if they truly believe!
 
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