A question about Job.

brinny · Mar 2, 2014

Originally Posted by brinny View Post
Setyoufree, would you kindly describe to me Job's circumstances and what he was experiencing, in detail, as if you were there in his shoes? Thank you kindly.

Setyoufree said:
Maybe this is what you'd like to hear?

Job, man, I really feel bad for you. I agree, you are a righteous person. You're perfect and blameless, just like you've been telling me. Come here, let me give you a hug.

What was Job experiencing, in detail?

Setyoufree · Mar 2, 2014

brinny said:
What was Job experiencing, in detail?

It doesn't matter in the sense that Job brought these things upon himself. Pride in his performance and self-justification brought these things upon him.

Setyoufree · Mar 2, 2014

brinny said:
What was Job experiencing, in detail?

Better question: Why was Job experiencing these calamities?

Answer: God backed away....God backed off and Satan came in....

Another question:

Why did God back off?

Was it just to show that Satan was wrong and God right about Job?

If so God has an ego and therefore He is sinful like us.

One must remember that God's love is the very opposite of human love. Human love is self-seeking...it does things for reward or to be right.

God does nothing out of gain. As Paul says, "love...is not self-seeking". And the NT tells us "God is love". Therefore "God is not self-seeking".

Just trying to make points with Satan is about ego & pride. So it can't be this reason for God isn't a sinner.

Then apparently Job had a problem.

Setyoufree · Mar 2, 2014

Let me give you something to read, Brinny.

I originally looked into the book of Job after reading this retired Pastor's book that he wrote for SDA. Here it is:

Laodicean Message 8

brinny · Mar 2, 2014

Setyoufree said:
Let me give you something to read, Brinny.

I originally looked into the book of Job after reading this retired Pastor's book that he wrote for SDA. Here it is:

Laodicean Message 8

Herein lies the problem, brother.

Setyoufree · Mar 2, 2014

brinny said:
Herein lies the problem, brother.

No, Jack's not a problem. Anyone who leads folks to truth is not the problem.

Now I cannot ultimately make Jack the last word, so I must dig in for myself. I came to my conclusions on Job myself. I bet you didn't even read his post, did you?

Is it that Jack disagrees with your take on Job or that he's a retired SDA pastor? If the latter, let me tell you something, the majority of SDA hate his theology because he exposes their self-righteousness.

But Christ was hated too for the same reasons....He exposed the self-righteousness of the Jewish leaders and Pharisees and so they had him murdered. Nothing new under the sun!

brinny · Mar 2, 2014

Originally Posted by brinny View Post
Herein lies the problem, brother.

Setyoufree said:
No, Jack's not a problem. Anyone who leads folks to truth is not the problem. I can not make Jack the last word, so I must dig in for myself. I came to my conclusions myself. I bet you didn't even read his post, did you?

Yup, read it, even where he uses Ellen White as a reference.

Setyoufree · Mar 2, 2014

brinny said:
Yup, read it, even where he uses Ellen White as a reference.

So because he is a retired SDA he is a problem?

Let me tell you something, the majority of SDA share your view on Job. And that makes perfect sense because most of them are trapped by their own self-righteousness. So they can't see the forest for the trees.

If anyone has a problem it's you. I think you are the problem. I think you are prejudiced based on your preconceived ideas.

brinny · Mar 2, 2014

Originally Posted by brinny View Post
Yup, read it, even where he uses Ellen White as a reference.

Setyoufree said:
So because he is a retired SDA he is a problem?

Let me tell you something, the majority of SDA share your view on Job. And that makes perfect sense because most of them are trapped by their own self-righteousness. So they can't see the forest for the trees.

If anyone has a problem it's you. I think you are the problem. I think you are prejudiced based on your preconceived ideas.

As i stated several times, you are entitled to your opinion, brother. I ain't hatin' on ya' for givin' it. My reference however regarding Job and the book of Job, is based on what God Himself said about Job.

In addition, if one cannot empathize and sense the utter pain and travails of another (as in the four men who visited Job-uninvited i might add, and Job's wife, and anyone who is heartless to one suffering unimaginably) they haz a "heart" condition, which speaks volumes, and requires even further scrutiny and study. For what this indicates is a "heart of stone".

Setyoufree · Mar 2, 2014

As far as Ellen White goes many SDA have made of her what Catholics have made of the Pope. That's their problem. I did the same at one time before I stopped attending an SDA church. Why did I leave? I wasn't welcome because of my views on works vs grace.

I too, at one time, made Ellen White the final word when I was an SDA. But I learned better. Then I found where she said she wasn't the final word. I read that if SDA would have read their Bibles she wouldn't have been needed. In fact she states she was not infallible and that the Bible, and the Bible only, was to be the last word.

Nevertheless she had some very good things she said. Please note she was writing to SDA:

"Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption." [Ellen G. White]

What did Job say?

Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes.

Setyoufree · Mar 2, 2014

brinny said:
In addition, if one cannot empathize and sense the utter pain and travails of another (as in the four men who visited Job-uninvited i might add, and Job's wife, and anyone who is heartless to one suffering unimaginably) they haz a "heart" condition, which speaks volumes, and requires even further scrutiny and study. For what this indicates is a "heart of stone".

Show me where God empathized with Job in the book of Job.

You can't....

Does that meant that God didn't love Job. No, but Job had a lesson to learn and you can't address self-righteousness and at the same time pat them on the back. Why? It will build them up in their self-righteousness.

When Job repented then God restored everything and then some.....

brinny · Mar 2, 2014

Originally Posted by brinny View Post
In addition, if one cannot empathize and sense the utter pain and travails of another (as in the four men who visited Job-uninvited i might add, and Job's wife, and anyone who is heartless to one suffering unimaginably) they haz a "heart" condition, which speaks volumes, and requires even further scrutiny and study. For what this indicates is a "heart of stone".

Setyoufree said:
Show me where God empathized with Job in the book of Job.

You can't....

Does that meant that God didn't love Job. No, but Job had a lesson to learn and you can't address self-righteousness and at the same time pat them on the back. Why? It will build them up in their self-righteousness.

When Job repented then God restored everything and then some.....

You missed my point, but no biggie.....

peace brother.

Setyoufree · Mar 2, 2014

brinny said:
You missed my point, but no biggie.....

peace brother.

No, I didn't miss your point....You are after Elihu. Get rid of him and Job can shine.....Well, then you'll need to get rid of God because the two agree.

If God did not "empathize" with Job then why should Elihu?

This does not mean that God enjoyed what Job brought upon himself, but in order to allow Job to learn God apparently had to take the route He did.

Elihu's job was to prepare Job for God's intervention. Hence Elihu pointed to Job's problem - self-righteousness.

Job repented. God restored everything plus....

I'm sure God hated that Job took this route, but in the end Job was much better off....Let's read it again:

Job 42:12 The LORD blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. 13 And he also had seven sons and three daughters. 14 The first daughter he named Jemimah, the second Keziah and the third Keren-Happuch. 15 Nowhere in all the land were there found women as beautiful as Job's daughters, and their father granted them an inheritance along with their brothers. 16 After this, Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation. 17 And so he died, old and full of years.

brinny · Mar 2, 2014

Originally Posted by brinny View Post
You missed my point, but no biggie.....

peace brother.

Setyoufree said:
No, I didn't miss your point....You are after Elihu. Get rid of him and Job can shine.....Well, then you'll need to get rid of God because the two agree.

If God did not "empathize" with Job then why should Elihu?

This does not mean that God enjoyed what Job brought upon himself, but in order to allow Job to learn God apparently had to take the route He did.

Elihu's job was to prepare Job for God's intervention. Hence Elihu pointed to Job's problem - self-righteousness.

Job repented. God restored everything plus....

I'm sure God hated that Job took this route, but in the end Job was much better off....Let's read it again:

12 The LORD blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. 13 And he also had seven sons and three daughters. 14 The first daughter he named Jemimah, the second Keziah and the third Keren-Happuch. 15 Nowhere in all the land were there found women as beautiful as Job's daughters, and their father granted them an inheritance along with their brothers. 16 After this, Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation. 17 And so he died, old and full of years.

God recompensed Job for the suffering he endured "without cause" (as it is written that God does for those who suffer without cause...) God restored to Job above and beyond what was taken

in addition, we (each one of us is to do what is written here.....minister to the hurting, the trodden down, the sick, the weary, as it is written here in Isaiah)

"The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified. And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations. And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. But ye shall be named the Priests of the Lord: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves. For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them." ~Isaiah 61:1-7

"Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord and depart from evil." ~Proverbs 3:7....... Job was described by God as His servant, who feared God (Him) and avoided evil. Job was wise, for he "feared" God, and it is written here what it means to be wise: "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding." ~Proverbs 9:10

In addition, we are admonished by God "Strive not with a man without cause, if he have done thee no harm." ~Proverbs 3:30 (what were these four men and Job's wife doing to Job? Job had done NONE of them harm. His wife especially clarified that when she herself called Job a man of "integrity".) She of all people knew Job and she declared he was a man of integrity. This is in line with what God said about Job's integrity. It's also in line with one's heart being "righteous" before God, for if Job's heart was not right before God, neither God nor his wife could've said that he was a man of integrity.

Job's integrity, his right standing before God, is established in the very beginning of the book of Job. Later his own wife confirms it.

Setyoufree · Mar 2, 2014

brinny said:
God recompensed Job for the suffering he endured "without cause"

Job 2:1 On another day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him. 2 And the LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it." 3 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."

True, Satan didn't have a good justification. Satan didn't charge Job of self-righteousness. Satan charged Job of not trusting in God...of not having faith.

Did Job believe in God? Yes! But there was problem and God knew Job's problem. Otherwise all God allowed He allowed for no reason but to prove Satan wrong and Him right. But that's doesn't match the character of the God of the Bible. God, after all, is not self-seeking. He doesn't allow bad things just to prove Himself right. That's ego. He allowed what happened to Job for a reason, but not what Satan claimed.

Setyoufree · Mar 2, 2014

brinny said:
Job's integrity, his right standing before God, is established in the very beginning of the book of Job. Later his own wife confirms it.

James 5:11 As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job's perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.

Not Job's integrity (his righteousness) but his faith endured. Job's self-righteousness was the problem.

brinny · Mar 2, 2014

Setyoufree said:
James 5:11 As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job's perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.

Not Job's integrity (his righteousness) but his faith endured. Job's self-righteousness was the problem.

it is not possible to be defined as a man of integrity and to be "self-righteous" at the same time. It is also not possible because if one "fears" God they have already humbled themselves before God, for it is not possible to "fear" God and to simultaneously worship God and "fear" Him, because the self-righteous one is, in essence, "worshiping" himself and not God.

Setyoufree · Mar 2, 2014

brinny said:
His wife especially clarified that when she herself called Job a man of "integrity". She of all people knew Job and she declared he was a man of integrity.

The same wife that said "curse God and die"?

No, I'll put not my trust in her words. I'll trust God's man, Elihu. He after all was sent to counsel Job:

Job 32:2 "But the anger of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram burned; against Job his anger burned because he justified himself before God."

Job 33:8 "But you (Job) have said in my hearing (Elihu)-- I heard the very words-- 9 'I am pure and without sin; I am clean and free from guilt."

Job 36:2 "...I will show you (Job) that there is more to say on God's behalf."

Setyoufree · Mar 2, 2014

brinny said:
it is not possible to be defined as a man of integrity and to be "self-righteous" at the same time.

Who told you that?

"God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/1-samuel/16-7.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-1but the LORD looks at the heart."

brinny · Mar 2, 2014

Setyoufree said:
The same wife that said "curse God and die"?

No, I'll put not my trust in her words. I'll trust God's man, Elihu. He after all was sent to counsel Job:

Job 32:2 "But the anger of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram burned; against Job his anger burned because he justified himself before God."

Job 33:8 "But you (Job) have said in my hearing (Elihu)-- I heard the very words-- 9 'I am pure and without sin; I am clean and free from guilt."

Job 36:2 "...I will show you (Job) that there is more to say on God's behalf."

As i stated earlier, my reference is what God Himself says about Job. Job's wife confirmed what God Himself said when she called Job a man of integrity. She most likely would've spouted off what was wrong with Job right about then, but she could find nothing and said herself that he was a man of integrity, which is right in line with what God said about Job. A testimony to Job's integrity is right there, even if she was less than pleased that Job was a man of integrity.

"Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die." ~Job 2:9

A question about Job.

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