A question about Job.

I read Job in the NIV, which I liked. In ch.23, Job says his complaint is bitter. Wow, many churches would say don't dare complain to God.
Job was honest, I admire that. Yet still having some trust he says "He knows the way I take, when he tries me I'll come forth as gold."

brinny said:

Yes, THERE it is. In addition he was actually praying and worshiping God in those most excruciating, darkest of moments. Where ELSE was he going to take his utter depths of suffering? He was calling out to God with ALL of it. And i am reminded that we are admonished to pray about ALL things. Job's prayers were raw and honest. And so were David's and even Jesus' prayers were, because they were straight from the heart. THank you again for your insightful post. It was edifying.

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I believe Job was righteous. With that, I believe Job also understood something about sacrifice. He may have understood it darkly, and not clearly ... but he understood something about it. He performed it on behalf of his loved ones, and so he understood something about the difference between righteousness in God, and sacrifice concerning those who do not concern themselves with the things of God and perhaps faith.

So when suffering and loss came upon him, he didn't blame God. And it makes sense, when we realize Job was RIGHTEOUS and already understood some correlations between sacrifice and the "unclean". IOW, he was already a willing participant in sacrifice by his faith in God and some of his apparent understanding.

However when Job was attacked directly ... as in, his own body ... this is where the opportunity for confusion arises, imo. Where he may "crack". Because now, the question arises ... what is it for ? If he was righteous, and understood sacrifice had to do with those who "needed it" ... what was he personally sacrificing for now ? What good was it ?

He still didn't blame God ... yet we see his wife, his friends, etc ... descend on him. His wife is more or less a direct mouthpiece for Satan. His friends are speaking untruth's concerning God (with the exception of Elihu, arguably). And Satan is still standing by his accusation of Job. So what is Job sacrificing himself for now ? Is he sacrificing himself for Satan ? Is he sacrificing himself for his friends and wife, or are they just exploiting the opportunity parasitically ?

It somewhat doesn't surprise me that Job didn't start to blame God and just curse God ... again, I think he understood some things about God, faith, righteousness, sacrifice, etc. But what I don't get, is why he didn't crack and attack his wife and friends. Why didn't he start seeing them as part of the problem ? Why didn't he snap, put two and three together, and realize they were speaking untruths, lies, encouraging him to do evil, and "take them out" ? Leave them, kill them, something. Why didn't he view them as enemies, IOW ?

I'm assuming it's because he loved them. For the same reasons Moses didn't seek the destruction of the hard hearted Hebrews, and Jesus didn't take out the faithless Israelites, and David stood up and defeated Goliath for a nation of cowards ... I'm assuming it's because Job loved.

brinny said:

Well i gotta admit, i had not considered that at all. Can you share more thoughts and insights into Job "loving" those that sorely added to his misery profoundly and were most likely being used of Satan to further buffet and torture Job?

Another thought i'm pondering on.....why do you think that Satan took out all ten of Job's children but not his wife?

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

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Just my op:

Job was sacrificing for his children ... not his wife. IOW, his children were faithlessly letting someone else sacrifice for them. If they had been people of faith, they would have sought righteousness themselves and not relied upon another person to cover this for them. So by their faithlessness, they were basically at risk for the enemy to get at them. And by their lifestyle, they were already "playing in the world", so to speak.

It caught up with them. The first one's attacked by the enemy, were them. Job's servant's, I'm guessing they were killed as well because they knew of the children's actions and did nothing about it. That's a total guess. Job's loss of physical property and belongings ... Job already understood that "stuff is just stuff". He showed this by sacrificing his stuff for the benefit of others already. So when this stuff was taken, it was already something he was willing to sacrifice anyway.

Think of it like a soldier: if the enemy has access to something you love and are protecting, there is a risk that you will experience loss and/or suffering as long as the enemy has that access. With his children, there was access. With his stuff and things ... he probably already understood that it was just "stuff". And we see that when he DID experience the loss, his words and reactions reflect that he had some understanding of the risks involved by being a righteous person, and having family members who didn't have the same faith as him.

As far as why his wife and friends weren't attacked ... it could be because he wasn't sacrificing for them, and so they weren't looking to him to be their righteousness. Also, if his wife is being essentially an advocate for the enemy (attempting to get Job to do the very thing the enemy wanted him to do), why would the enemy attack her ? Why not keep her healthy and good to go, so she could be a puppet for him ? Likewise with Job's friends ... they spoke untruths. They were USEFUL to the enemy. Job's children appear basically useless and ignorant ... too busy living for the flesh, serving neither God nor the enemy but themselves. But Job's wife and friends, perhaps, had use.

In fact ... when it's all over with, God says that Job may sacrifice for his friends and that he would accept it. I don't believe this is because God "loves sacrifices" ... I think it's to try and teach his friends about the difference between Himself, and the enemy. In the story of Job, who is it that sought suffering, sacrifice, and death in order to prove something ? The enemy did. God didn't kill or harm anyone in this story. It was the enemy. God didn't even kill or harm those who spoke untruth's about Him. Yet the enemy provoked, was okay with causing suffering, loss, death, etc. Job's friends ... didn't understand "the sides". They didn't understand God, nor who or what was responsible for all the suffering and loss. The sacrifice of animals is like a way to teach a lesson about the differences between God and the enemy, without harming human beings in the process. To show what believing lies COSTS, and who it is that you open yourself up to who may request access to your life if you go that route.

And I think Job loved his wife and friends, and children ... by standing in the gap for them. He didn't blame them, accuse them, or see the work of the devil in their lives even to where he finally "gave up" and said, "Okay, to h e double hockey sticks with you all ! I'm done, leave me be !" He stuck it out, he suffered in front of them, put up with their insults and lies. Jesus did the same thing. He suffered in front of those whom spoke falsely about him, antagonized him, etc. Moses did the same thing: he asked God to not destroy the Hebrews whom he couldn't leave alone for ten minutes without them building a golden calf, or grumbling against him, or arguing, or disbelieving. Love does not keep a record of wrongs, it does not delight in evil, it always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres, always protects, etc. Even to the point of God dying in a body like ours, in a humiliating and horrific fashion by the hands of the ignorant, the children of the devil. He still loved them and asked for their forgiveness. So I think Job had a similar heart. I know that I'm not like Job, unfortunately ... I come to breaking points and I'm like, "Away with all of them !" unfortunately. Job, wasn't like that. Jonah, probably was like that. Peter, probably was like that. David, may have been a mix. But Job ... Job is a shining example of how God and His children behave. I think Job loved his wife and friends, and did not see certain sides of them because he was full of faith and hope towards them.

brinny said:

Thoughtful post.....an edifying meditation. Perhaps you hit on something here that is not even noticed or hasn't been studied on, and that is the "love" Job had for those who despitefully used him and kicked him woefully when he was lower than low and kept at it (his four "friends" mostly) and then there was his wife, who in the middle of her insult to Job testified to his "integrity" (this brings to mind David's wife who was disgusted with David's dancing before the Lord with all his might....but that's another study, yet it speaks to both of these wive's own character before God)

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Thank you as always Brinny for your kind words

And I'm assuming about the love Job had ... I can somewhat relate at that level, but Job surpasses it for me to where it's hard for me to relate. Like Christ, I have experienced the love of Christ for others to extremes, and to my own detriment and their abuse towards me ... however I reached my limits lol. I know that goes without saying, that Christ would have more love than me haha ... but even looking at Job, he exhibits something I have yet to understand at that level. I can understand it only so far, and then it's beyond my experience.

brinny said:

How God described Job in the very beginning establishes this, for it is not possible to be righteous in God's eyesight without loving Him with all that is in oneself.

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Things to keep in mind.

Job's self-righteousness:

"Let God weigh me (Job) in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless" [Job:31:6]

God, through Elihu, rebukes Job:

Job 33:8 "But you have said in my hearing-- I heard the very words-- 9 'I am pure and without sin; I am clean and free from guilt."

Job 36:1 Elihu continued: 2 "Bear with me a little longer and I will show you that there is more to be said in God's behalf...

Job's problem:

Job 32:1 Then these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 But the anger of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram burned; against Job his anger burned because he justified himself before God.

Job repents:

Job 40:3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said , 4 "Behold, I am vile..." Job 42:6 "Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes"...

Job's wealth is restored:

Job 42:12 "The LORD blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first."

Conclusion:

When God said that Job was blameless, He was presenting Job's view of himself.

Then why did Job suffer? Principle: “everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted”

brinny said:

same here.......it is beyond my understanding......and as i'm writing this what comes to mind is Job's "knowing" God, and in essence "knowing" God's heart, which would be reflected in Job's own heart. What seems clear is that Job loved God with all his heart, mind, soul, and strength, and thus had a perspective on those who taunted and were "blind" as they were being used of Satan (his four friends and his wife)....now since Job already loved God with all that was in him, and therefore "knew" God and "walked" with Him, what most grieved Job is the seeming lack of the "presence" of God. His support and very essence of his existence and his very "breath" came from God, and he "knew" this. He loved "God" first and foremost, and then his family and all else after. How God described Job in the very beginning establishes this, for it is not possible to be righteous in God's eyesight without loving Him with all that is in oneself. What GOd said about Job and repeated it for emphasis speaks volumes on Job's character and his integrity and where his heart was and thus the perspective and wisdom he had. And in Proverbs it is another key for confirmation on Job's "wisdom" for it says that the beginning of wisdom is the "fear of God".

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Yeah that's kind of why I said I think Job knew some things "darkly" before going into his experience, but understood them with more clarity after coming through it. He knew some things about God, had faith, had a heart made by His hands perhaps ... but there was some lack of understanding Job had as well. I don't think he understood the "fine print" in all that he was experiencing, and I don't think he pinpointed the cause in all of it (IOW, he didn't proclaim, "Oh ... this is the work of the enemy. I can see it clearly. This is what is happening with God right now, this is what the enemy is saying and doing, etc"). But he had almost a ... child-like faith and hope and love ? In the end, he knew things with more clarity.

Deeeep deeeep study. Thank you for sharing your thoughtful insights on this very challenging book that has shook me to my very core at times.

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brinny said:

Now there's another nugget i never thought of or considered, and that is a "childlikeness" in Job's faith, which is testified throughout God's Word, especially by Jesus own Words and elsewhere in the New Testament as a requirement for entrance into the kingdom of heaven......this just gets deeper n' deeper....what a glorious insight to study on.....thank you for sharing this precious gem.....

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brinny said:

....it is merely that, your opinion.

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Ditto

Yet, you cannot explain what seems to be a contradiction. Instead you just ignore those statements that do not jive with your interpretation.

brinny said:

...i realize that i haven't even begun studying Job....never really delved into any of those intricacies in detail, that defined him....

Thank you for sharing your insights...

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And thanks again for your kind words towards me

brinny said:

I am focusing on what God Himself said in the very beginning of the book....and how He establishes right from the beginning what we are to keep in mind ....this man (Job) that God Himself calls righteous.

Peace.

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Yes, and while you only focus of that you miss the rest of the story. Hence you can't see the total picture.

If God was speaking of His view of Job then why did in the end Job state that he was actually "vile"? See Job 40:3 KJV.

Also, if Job was blameless (as he claimed in Job 31:6), then why did he repent? See Job 42:6

Apparently Job had a problem. Yes, he believed in God, but so did the Pharisees. The difference is Job repented, but the Pharisees did not.