A Problem With The Pre-Tribulational Rapture

[Ave Maria]

Hi everyone. Doesn't the pre-tribulational rapture require that Jesus comes back 3 times instead of 2? The Bible only mentions a 2nd coming, not a 3rd. But if you believe in the pre-tribulational rapture, you'd almost have to believe in a 3rd coming right?

 

[Sojourner1]

Jesus doesn't come back to the earth during the rapture, He catches believers up to Him in the air and returns to heaven.

1 Thes. 4:15-17
"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

WHAT ONLY ONE PROBLEM LOL

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Hi everyone. Doesn't the pre-tribulational rapture require that Jesus comes back 3 times instead of 2? The Bible only mentions a 2nd coming, not a 3rd. But if you believe in the pre-tribulational rapture, you'd almost have to believe in a 3rd coming right?

The return of Christ is a sudden but drawn out event.

It begins with His sudden appearance in the air to remove those whom He has consecrated and give glorified bodies.
It is followed by HIS judgment and wrath which includes allowing the devil to reign for a time and the two witnesses, trumpet judgments, and bowls of wrath on the kingdom of the beast (Rev). (drawn-out part)
It culminates in His physical return to rule and reign.

In my opinion, this is what seals 5-7 are about in Revelation:
Seal #5 = giving of white robes/glorified bodies to the Bride (rapture)
Seal #6 = SIGNAL that the day of judgment and wrath has begun, satan falls (stars falls/ heavens shaken)
Seal #7 = judgment and wrath poured out which includes the anti-christ/beast, two witnesses, trumpets and bowls.

Seals 1-4 are the birth pains and have been happening in increasing frequency and intensity since Christ ascended. Seal #1, not the anti-christ but the church fulfilling the great commission to take the gospel to the world. It was the last thing Jesus said before He ascended and the first thing He did upon His ascension.


Nutshell version for 'ya...ask if you want more scriptural evidence from me 'cause there's a ton.

 

[Ave Maria]

Jesus doesn't come back to the earth during the rapture, He catches believers up to Him in the air and returns to heaven.

1 Thes. 4:15-17
"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

Oh ok. Thanks! That makes much mores sense.

 

[zeke37]

hi there folks, there is no pre trib rapture...it is fantasy of men, and to be a large trick of Satan.

Jesus doesn't come back to the earth during the rapture, He catches believers up to Him in the air and returns to heaven.

1 Thes. 4:15-17
"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

the subject of the scripture is found in verse 13,

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


so, where are the dead today...?/

they are with Christ in heaven.



and what happens to them?


well, clearly, they come back with Christ at the last trump...and are gathered together with the elect on earth....as verses 15-17 say


these are the firstfruits...the good to go people...

the elect from heaven and from earth....




so how is it that you think this is at some other time?


does Christ come to earth for a flyby with ALL the dead believers, pick up the buch of us, and then return with everyone to heaven???


no, not at all.


the gospels clearly say that the gathering is after the trib of those last days, not before...and the same language is used as in 1Thes4...

Mar13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,


25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.



same language......

and Paul says in 2Thes2 that the gathering to Christ must happen after the son of Perdition claims to be God in Jerusalem and after the church goes apostate.



come on now....


1Thes4 is about where the dead are, and when they come back...and it is at the last trump, when the elect are all gathered together from both heaven and earth....



no one is going anywhere...


see the greek texts (manuscripts) for the definitions and words used in the original writing...instead of relying on a bad english translation.

air= spiritual body that all will be changed to at Christ's arrival...(no mistaking that one)...the breath of life body that we all have...spiritual body that Paul describes in 1Cor15, that will be changed at the final trump of God.

clouds= mass multitude, as in a great cloud of witnesses Heb12.

dead come with Christ, and are joined together with the elect who are alive at the last trump....and all flesh is changed...








there is no pre trib event, but it is when the dead are brought from hevean to the earth.


and that is certainly not pre trib, is it?



ps. I was at one time a pre tribber, rapture believing Christian, who was not preprared for the truth at first, but the evidence is way to overwelming...

pray about it....believe the Word over the traditions that the churches follow today....remember that the whole world gets fooled, except the witnessing elect.


in His service
c

 

[HarrisonS]

Zeke37:
the gospels clearly say that the gathering is after the trib of those last days, not before...and the same language is used as in 1Thes4...

Mar13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,


25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.





You are absolutely right, this does occur at the end of the tribulation and not the beginning. The only problem is, that this is not talking about the rapture! In fact the rapture is nowhere mentioned in the Synoptic Gospels. (Even Matt 24:40-41 is referring to a judgmental removal and not the rapture.) These passages are referring to the gathering of tribulation believers at the second coming of Christ. For parallel scripture see also Deut 30:4 and Matt 24:31.

You can not take a Smorgasbord approach to Bible interpretation (a little here, a little there etc.) without understanding the contexts of each passage! Bible exegesis is best left to the professionals, and those with an adequate background and training. In your case “don’t try it at home!”


Zeke37:
see the greek texts (manuscripts) for the definitions and words used in the original writing...instead of relying on a bad english translation.

air= spiritual body that all will be changed to at Christ's arrival...(no mistaking that one)...the breath of life body that we all have...spiritual body that Paul describes in 1Cor15, that will be changed at the final trump of God.

clouds= mass multitude, as in a great cloud of witnesses Heb12.



I agree with you that we need to refer carefully to the original Greek text (and Hebrew and Aramaic) in doing Bible interpretation. I have read the straight Greek NT from cover to cover probably around 50 times, and can appreciate how this is often true. Indeed, aberrant teachings (two examples being soul sleep and the confusion of Israel with the NT Church) often rely heavily on bad renderings in the KJV which was the English standard for centuries. I am not “knocking” the KJV; it is still one of the best English translations, but every translation has its flaws.

The symbolism you are referring to here has nothing at all to do with the Greek language. “Clouds” can sometimes refer symbolically to multitudes. However, I have never heard of the symbolism of “air” to which you refer; it is probably just that, and a lot of it!

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Hi everyone. Doesn't the pre-tribulational rapture require that Jesus comes back 3 times instead of 2? The Bible only mentions a 2nd coming, not a 3rd. But if you believe in the pre-tribulational rapture, you'd almost have to believe in a 3rd coming right?

no ....

1st coming JC walk on earth
rapture ... We meet Him in Space....
2nd coming JC walks on earth

 

[lastblast]

Oh ok. Thanks! That makes much mores sense.

The only problem with that is that I Thess. 4:14-17 does not state that believers are taken back to heaven while those who are not yet born again (but will be) are left here suffering while we "party" in heaven. When Jesus comes He is bringing back with Him all the dead in Christ (which includes all who die prior to His Second coming) and THEN----when His Body is completed, He will come and gather all that is His on this earth (see I thess. 1:10, James 5:7, Acts 3:19-21, II Thess. 1:6-10, Rev. 6:9-11, Rev. 11:15-18, Rev. 10:7). Blessings...........

 

[lastblast]

Bible exegesis is best left to the professionals, and those with an adequate background and training. In your case “don’t try it at home!”

Wow, I can't even believe that would come out of the mouth of a Christian, but these days, nothing surprises me. Just as the Pharisees believed THEY only could really expound on the law, even today, we have people who think a Bible doctorate gives on credibility on properly interpreting the bible (and BTW, even the so called SCHOLARS disagree on many things, so where does that leave us?)

Do you not believe that the Holy Spirit can open someone's eyes so that they can see the BIG picture of God's plan, seeing all those passages in TRUE context? I do believe that...............just as Jesus chose "simple" men to be His disciples, He has made it known that the wise many times are only wise in their own eyes, but not the Lord's.............He delights in revealing Himself to the simple who long to know Him and to walk in His will. For me, the "professionals" dont' impress me a bit, and I doubt they impress the Lord either when they all are teaching different things on the same issues.............

 

[HisdaughterJen]

The only problem with that is that I Thess. 4:14-17 does not state that believers are taken back to heaven while those who are not yet born again (but will be) are left here suffering while we "party" in heaven. When Jesus comes He is bringing back with Him all the dead in Christ (which includes all who die prior to His Second coming) and THEN----when His Body is completed, He will come and gather all that is His on this earth (see I thess. 1:10, James 5:7, Acts 3:19-21, II Thess. 1:6-10, Rev. 6:9-11, Rev. 11:15-18, Rev. 10:7). Blessings...........

Our home is in heaven, Lastblast.

Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.



Phl 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,



Hbr 11:16Instead, they were longing for a better country-a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.


We are taken to heaven as the devil is cast down. We are the ones who dwell there and say, "woe to the earth for the devil has gone down to you".

 

[zeke37]

Zeke37:
the gospels clearly say that the gathering is after the trib of those last days, not before...and the same language is used as in 1Thes4...

Mar13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,


25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.





You are absolutely right, this does occur at the end of the tribulation and not the beginning. The only problem is, that this is not talking about the rapture!

well, I disagree. It is speaking of the same time that 1Thes4 and 1Cor15 are speaking of....

In fact the rapture is nowhere mentioned in the Synoptic Gospels.

but Jesus said that He had fortold us all things....and that would include the gathering to Christ....and there is a gathering to Christ mentioned i the Gospels (of elect)....there just is no pre trib gathering....it is post trib. It is when Christ brings the dead believers (elect in heaven) with Him.

(Even Matt 24:40-41 is referring to a judgmental removal and not the rapture.)

same exact time....the gathering to Christ...not any early event that does not exist. there is no pre trib gathering. the gatheriong that you think is pre trib is the post trib gathering to Christ, not an imaginary event a half hour earlier!

These passages are referring to the gathering of tribulation believers at the second coming of Christ. For parallel scripture see also Deut 30:4 and Matt 24:31.

there is no such thing as tribulation believers other than the elect who are a number out of the churches. They follow the Lamb where ever He goes and they are sealed with the truth before the 4 winds start to blow their destructive path...before Satan is here...before Satan is cast from heaven to the earth for his short season....and no sealing happens after that time, after Satan is here.....so there are no new believers in the trib. No overcoming Jews, or whatever traditions of man teaches.

the 144,000 are NOT ALL JEWS, only 12,000 are (read it for yourself) but are comprised mainly of the scattered tribes, who crossed the Caucusis mountains and settled much of Europe....became the Christian nations of today. the elect shall come out of ALL 12 tribes, not just ONE tribe.
5 of the 7 church systems are corrupt in the end times as Rev2-3 teach. but the 2 that are good are seen in Rev11 against the beast (2 candlesticks)....as the rest (the other 5) are apostate and follow the beast, be it in ignorance...

the last half of the final hour of temptation which comes upon the whole world sees Satan cast from heaven and pretend to be the returning Jesus, preaching rapture....from earth...walking and talking from earth....claiming to be God (Christ). The elect are sealed of the truth and are not tempted by Satan when he comes here, cast from heaven to play act the returning Jesus. he will fool the world....including all Christians who are not elect. They will honestly think he is Jesus returned. But the elect will know the truth, they are sealed of the truth, shall be fully protected by the Holy Spirit and shall witness for God against Satan as Mar13 describes.

the church is staying here, and Christ is coming here after those events. Heaven is here forever.

You can not take a Smorgasbord approach to Bible interpretation (a little here, a little there etc.) without understanding the contexts of each passage!

huh? lol. that from a pre tribber! Well, I won't call you names, but instead drop a seed of truth and God will either grow it or not.

of the two men on the roof, the one taken is taken in the flood....the flood of lies that comes from Satan. They are both supposed to be watchmen....and yet one fails...taken early by Satan

5 of 10 virgins fail as well...


to many He will say, I never knew you...that is what happens when one is fooled by Satan and worships him as God.

Bible exegesis is best left to the professionals, and those with an adequate background and training. In your case “don’t try it at home!”

ouch! out of the mouths of babes....comes the truth. Any so callled scholar of God's Word that finds pre trib true, is not a scholar, or at least not a very good one.

but I am willing to speak to you about any topic if you want to....conversation can be rewarding....and educational to both, even if we disagree...keeping it pleasant will provide for a better atmosphere...

I realy truly believe that the pre trib doctrine is of the devil, because it allows one to slip into a comfort zone and not even know what is about to happen, let alone what to do about it, because we are told what to do, and how to stay safe, kept from being tempted by Satan in that hour, with truth and knowledge because of the sealing of God....how to be a champion for God and stand for Him and walk through the valley of the shadow of Death....we put the gospel armour on to battle, not to fly....but to go to battle, and the elect have a witness to make against the beast and his system.

and God is against the pre trib rapture theory...as Ez13 states.

I truly believe that those who hold to pre trib, will be the ones easiest for Satan to fool. They (you) don't even think that they will be around to ever see him.

Zeke37:

see the greek texts (manuscripts) for the definitions and words used in the original writing...instead of relying on a bad english translation.

air= spiritual body that all will be changed to at Christ's arrival...(no mistaking that one)...the breath of life body that we all have...spiritual body that Paul describes in 1Cor15, that will be changed at the final trump of God.

clouds= mass multitude, as in a great cloud of witnesses Heb12.



I agree with you that we need to refer carefully to the original Greek text (and Hebrew and Aramaic) in doing Bible interpretation. I have read the straight Greek NT from cover to cover probably around 50 times,

cool! I cannot read Greek fluently yet, but I am working on it....and Hebrew too! but for now I rely on the Strong's Concordance for the interpretations. I trust the authorship. I won't tell you how many years I have been studying.

and can appreciate how this is often true. Indeed, aberrant teachings (two examples being soul sleep and the confusion of Israel with the NT Church) often rely heavily on bad renderings in the KJV which was the English standard for centuries. I am not “knocking” the KJV; it is still one of the best English translations, but every translation has its flaws.

I agree...it is my favorite to study from....with the Strong's.

the sleep mentioned in the bible for dead people is a kinder way of saying dead, because they are not really dead forever as those with out hope are, but alive in Christ and with Him....they are however asleep to life on earth...but are very much awake and alive right now in heaven awaiting their return to earth with Him

I do not believe in replacement theology, but rather I believe in the migration of the scattered tribes, and who they became....it happens to be that the northern tribes in part became the European nations, and eventually the America's...becoming many of the Christian nations of today

The symbolism you are referring to here has nothing at all to do with the Greek language. “Clouds” can sometimes refer symbolically to multitudes.

Yes, and Paul specifically uses it with regards to witnesses

However, I have never heard of the symbolism of “air” to which you refer; it is probably just that, and a lot of it!

you don't have to be like that...remember that I came from an understanding similar to yours....and seeds of truth brought me out that false belief (thank God) and into THE truth...

air/spirit in the Hebrew is Ruach (I'm sure you know what that means)
and many times in Greek it is Pneuma (pneumatic tires) but sometimes aer is used in example and symbolism. All can mean air that we breath, the wind, or the spirit beit man's or God's, depending on the verse.

Paul teaches in 1Cor15 that there are two kinds of bodies that we have...a flesh body, and a spiritual/heavenly/celestial body.

Christ has both, we have both....

Since Christ is coming here, and heaven is coming here forever, and flesh cannot inherrit the kingdom of God...

we are told of the moment when Christ Comes back to Gather His elect...and how we are all changed.

all flesh is changed to the spiritual body that we all have...good or bad...Lazarus or the rich man

when Jesus comes back, all flesh is changed to the spiritual body...it is that body that I am referencing...and that body, either a saved(elect) one or another will last for the entire 1000 year Millennium.

it is part of the blast of the 7th (last) trump of God that the elect are actually part of.



but all that aside....if I understand your interpretation of pre trib, you believe that Jesus' feet will not touch the ground in this pre trib gathering, correct? If so, then all I need really do is warn you that if one does come claiming rapture but does so from earth, walking and talking and making claims from earth...showing miracles and convincing folks that he is Jesus, that it cannot be Messiah because the fake must come first, and because we will not yet be in those spiritual celestial bodies....


if you would agree to that, we can have meaningful conversations.



in His service
c

 

[zeke37]

Our home is in heaven, Lastblast.

and where is heaven Jen?

at a time real soon, heaven will be right here...as the former will be destroyed.


Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

and Jesus died on the cross, went to His Father, and came back. He was speaking to them present at the time, as well as to all of us...

He died on the cross....they present saw Him return....and Christ defeated death....

He is Messiah, and that is what is being spoken of. Christ has made a way for all of us who believe to be with Him in ehaven after we die.


but you don't really think this is a rapture verse do you Jen. That is pretty weak. This verse is for all believers for all time and is NOT speaking of the Gathering to Christ.

Phl 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

we await our Saviour FROM THERE...they(we) were waiting on earth for Him. If we diem, we go to heaven....


but if we be alive at that time, then 1Cor15 tells us what will happen at His return. This is not a rapture verse either.

Hbr 11:16Instead, they were longing for a better country-a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

Yep...sure has...but your bible should teach you that the city is NOT in heaven, but is being prepared for this place, right here on earth and is the place where God shall dwell forever...the center of heaven right here on earth. It is made up of the body of Christ

the city is right now being prepared for us, not a material city Jen...

We are taken to heaven as the devil is cast down.

not so, that is a lie and a trick of the devil.

We are the ones who dwell there and say, "woe to the earth for the devil has gone down to you".

no, the heavenly inhabbitance do,

call them angels or dead believers, beause their bretheren are still beling hassled on earth.


the church in it's entirely stays here for the trib, and if you wanna know what to do in that time (rapidly approaching) you'd better abandon pre trib.


in His service
c

 

[HarrisonS]

Zeke37:
the 144,000 are NOT ALL JEWS, only 12,000 are (read it for yourself) but are comprised mainly of the scattered tribes, who crossed the Caucusis mountains and settled much of Europe....became the Christian nations of today. the elect shall come out of ALL 12 tribes, not just ONE tribe.



The 144,000 are all Hebrews. There are 12,000 from each tribe. (Many people, myself included, loosely use the word “Jews” to refer to all of the twelve tribes; I will try to be more specific in the future) There are no Gentiles among the 144,000, as you seem to be saying. It appears here that you are espousing British Israelism, a cultic teaching once promoted by Herbert W. Armstrong and his “Worldwide Church of God”. British Israelites taught that the European nations were descended from various tribes from among the 10 “lost” tribes of Israel. This view was never taken seriously by any respected historian, and has long ago been thoroughly discredited.



Zeke37:
5 of the 7 church systems are corrupt in the end times as Rev2-3 teach. but the 2 that are good are seen in Rev11 against the beast (2 candlesticks)....as the rest (the other 5) are apostate and follow the beast, be it in ignorance...

Rev. 2 and 3 contain critiques of seven churches as they existed in the first century when Revelation was written. I do not believe that these chapters have any eschatological significance whatsoever.


Zeke37:
air/spirit in the Hebrew is Ruach (I'm sure you know what that means)
and many times in Greek it is Pneuma (pneumatic tires) but sometimes aer is used in example and symbolism. All can mean air that we breath, the wind, or the spirit beit man's or God's, depending on the verse.

Paul uses aer here in I Thes. 4:17. As used ih the NT, it just means “air” and little more. (See Acts 22:23, I Cor. 9:26, 14:9; Rev. 9:2, etc.)



Zeke37:
and God is against the pre trib rapture theory...as Ez13 states.


LOL. You are really begging the question here, aren’t you! Ezekiel 13 says nothing at all about the rapture! This passage addresses false prophets, period. First of all, we are not even speaking about prophesying. Prophesying has to do with the speaking forth of new revelation directly from God. Nobody is doing that here! Second, you are using Ezekiel 13 as a “one size fits all” passage; a pretribulationist could equally well apply this to you!

I will not comment on the rest of your discussion. It seems to be largely a lot of emotional ranting with very little substance. In other words, there is a lot of heat and not much light. It looks like you are on the right track with your study tools, but you really need to invest in some good commentaries rather than running amok through the Bible. Every good teacher and preacher relies heavily on the scholarship of others. We “stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before”. By yourself, like Humpty Dumpty you don’t seem to be able to put the pieces together correctly. The more you say, the more you prove the points that I made in my earlier post!

 

[HisdaughterJen]

and where is heaven Jen?

at a time real soon, heaven will be right here...as the former will be destroyed.


Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

and Jesus died on the cross, went to His Father, and came back. He was speaking to them present at the time, as well as to all of us...

He died on the cross....they present saw Him return....and Christ defeated death....

He is Messiah, and that is what is being spoken of. Christ has made a way for all of us who believe to be with Him in ehaven after we die.


but you don't really think this is a rapture verse do you Jen. That is pretty weak. This verse is for all believers for all time and is NOT speaking of the Gathering to Christ.

Phl 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

we await our Saviour FROM THERE...they(we) were waiting on earth for Him. If we diem, we go to heaven....


but if we be alive at that time, then 1Cor15 tells us what will happen at His return. This is not a rapture verse either.

Hbr 11:16Instead, they were longing for a better country-a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

Yep...sure has...but your bible should teach you that the city is NOT in heaven, but is being prepared for this place, right here on earth and is the place where God shall dwell forever...the center of heaven right here on earth. It is made up of the body of Christ

the city is right now being prepared for us, not a material city Jen...



not so, that is a lie and a trick of the devil.



no, the heavenly inhabbitance do,

call them angels or dead believers, beause their bretheren are still beling hassled on earth.


the church in it's entirely stays here for the trib, and if you wanna know what to do in that time (rapidly approaching) you'd better abandon pre trib.


in His service
c

The New Jerusalem is in heaven and not coming down until after the millenium.

 

[garry2]

ps. I was at one time a pre tribber, rapture believing Christian

Some jw's were once Christ seeking christians.


there is no pre trib event, but it is when the dead are brought from hevean to the earth.

There are no dead in Heaven, there are the spirits of those that died and are awaiting to come with Christ and be joined with their new ressurected changed bodies.

pray about it....believe the Word over the traditions that the churches follow today....remember that the whole world gets fooled, except the witnessing elect.

Of which you are not, beleiving that the devil fathered cain, yes he has fooled you.

of the two men on the roof, the one taken is taken in the flood....the flood of lies that comes from Satan. They are both supposed to be watchmen....and yet one fails...taken early by Satan

Show scripture of the two men on the roof.

I realy truly believe that the pre trib doctrine is of the devil, because it allows one to slip into a comfort zone

I, and I bet Jen too and many other ptr beleivers have always been in the comfort zone thanks to Gods Holy Spirit, even amongst our trials and tribulations.

and God is against the pre trib rapture theory...as Ez13 states.

Quite pathetic, but don't get upset on me saying that, or you can if you want too.


I truly believe that those who hold to pre trib, will be the ones easiest for Satan to fool. They (you) don't even think that they will be around to ever see him.

he hasn't fooled us into thinking that satan fathered cain, especially when God said adam did.

you don't have to be like that...remember that I came from an understanding similar to yours....and seeds of truth brought me out that false belief (thank God) and into THE truth...


in His service
c

No it was seeds sown by man, zeke37, and you like the idea of being one of the elect that have knowledge that other Christians do not have, and you cannot see how deceived by a man you are, even to the extent of when you say satan fathered cain you are as good as calling God a liar who said Adam fathered cain.

 

[lastblast]

Our home is in heaven, Lastblast.

Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.



Phl 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,



Hbr 11:16Instead, they were longing for a better country-a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.


We are taken to heaven as the devil is cast down. We are the ones who dwell there and say, "woe to the earth for the devil has gone down to you".

Scripture does not teach that we go to heaven while those who are (will be) our brothers sisters IN JESUS are on earth suffering. I thess. 4:14-17 doesn't state that, nor do any of the scriptures above state that. The early church never believed that/ nor taught that because as the bible teaches, we shall remain on this earth (those who survive) until the Second Glorious coming of Jesus----to gather ALL---from heaven and earth---that belong to Him. The early church taught that we would suffer anti-christ's persecution up until Jesus leaves heaven and exercises HIS authority.

I believe the early church, middle ages church, and the reformation church kept and taught this truth and this truth was altered by man taking a couple of verses out of context to teach that the church will escape the persecutions of anti-christ and be whisked out of this world BEFORE the Second Coming. That is just not biblically supported, in my opinion...............and I USED to hold to the pre-trib rapture. Matter of fact, when I first became born again and attended a church, this is exactly what they taught............yet, there were WAY too many questions, so I studied for myself and cannot see a pre-trib rapture, nor it's purpose when looking at the supposed "pre-trib" texts. Those pre-trib texts support the Second Coming gathering view to me------especially when one sets out to really understand salvation/the timing of salvation and the make-up of the body of Christ as expressed in the NT. Blessings.....

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Scripture does not teach that we go to heaven while those who are (will be) our brothers sisters IN JESUS are on earth suffering. I thess. 4:14-17 doesn't state that, nor do any of the scriptures above state that. The early church never believed that/ nor taught that because as the bible teaches, we shall remain on this earth (those who survive) until the Second Glorious coming of Jesus----to gather ALL---from heaven and earth---that belong to Him. The early church taught that we would suffer anti-christ's persecution up until Jesus leaves heaven and exercises HIS authority.

I believe the early church, middle ages church, and the reformation church kept and taught this truth and this truth was altered by man taking a couple of verses out of context to teach that the church will escape the persecutions of anti-christ and be whisked out of this world BEFORE the Second Coming. That is just not biblically supported, in my opinion...............and I USED to hold to the pre-trib rapture. Matter of fact, when I first became born again and attended a church, this is exactly what they taught............yet, there were WAY too many questions, so I studied for myself and cannot see a pre-trib rapture, nor it's purpose when looking at the supposed "pre-trib" texts. Those pre-trib texts support the Second Coming gathering view to me------especially when one sets out to really understand salvation/the timing of salvation and the make-up of the body of Christ as expressed in the NT. Blessings.....

Well, that's why there are "harvest" scriptures. How many harvests are there in one field, scripturally? There's a firstfruits harvest and a general harvest, right? Now, think about resurrections. How many resurrections are there?

1. Christ
2. Body of Christ
3. Two witnesses
4. Martyrs that didn't take the mark
5. GWT judgment

How many of the above are a part of the first resurrection? Biblically, 1-4.

Biblically, here is the order of events of the end times:

1. 2000 year church age/hardening of Israel until full number of gentiles comes in which is also filled with wars, famines, plagues, persecution and martyrdom as well as the gospel preached to all the world (great tribulation, seals 1-4)
2. This is followed immediately by Christ's appearance in the air with those who have fallen asleep in Him, the giving of white robes (seal #5) to the Bride, the glorified bodies.
3. This is immediately followed by/coincides with earthquake, sun/moon darken signalling beginning of day of judgment and wrath, satan falls. (seal #6)
4. This is followed by the time of judgment and wrath, includes the beast and two witnesses, trumpets/bowls.
5. Christ physically returns with the angels to destroy all the evil and set up kingdom on earth.


Another way to know that there is a resurrection of the Body of Christ PRIOR to judgment and wrath are various scriptures both in the old and in the new testaments:

We know that judgment BEGINS with the Body of Christ~

1Pe 4:17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?


Psa 50:4 He summons the heavens above,
and the earth, that he may judge his people:
Psa 50:5 “Gather to me my consecrated ones,
who made a covenant with me by sacrifice.”
Psa 50:6 And the heavens proclaim his righteousness,
for God himself is judge.



Psa 75:2When I shall receive the congregation I will judge uprightly.



Isa 26:19 But your dead will live;
their bodies will rise.
You who dwell in the dust,
wake up and shout for joy.
Your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.

Isa 26:20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
Isa 26:21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her;
she will conceal her slain no longer.



2Th 2:1 Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Th 2:4 he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.
2Th 2:5 Don't you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;


Who is the restrainer? The SPIRIT FILLED BODY OF CHRIST!

1Pe 1:5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.



1Th 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.


There's more, but I'll let you digest that much.

 

[Terral]

Hi PaladinGirl with Sojourner1 mentioned:

I am here to help you understand ‘the truth’ of “The Two Comings Of Our Lord Jesus Christ” (my thread) and to stand with the simplicity of Sojourner1’s statement of Post #2 that “Jesus doesn't come back to the earth during the rapture, He catches believers up to Him in the air and returns to heaven.”

Remember that everything part of the “wisdom given him” (Paul) connected to what he calls “The Mystery” (Eph. 3:3, Col 1:26) remained “Hidden IN GOD” (Eph. 3:9) AND that even our gospel (#2 here) is according to “the revelation of THE MYSTERY.” Romans 16:25. Read Paul’s statements to the Corinthians again (1Cor 15:51-53) to realize ‘he’ attaches the events of our gathering and translation to immortality directly to the “mystery” (Vine's Greek definition) which means Christ is ‘prophesying’ about something else in Matthew 24. By the time the “Great Tribulation” of Matthew 24:21 begins very near the END of the Age (Matt 24:3+), then ‘we’ (Body of Christ) will have already been with Christ for the 1000 Years contained within the “Day of the Lord” (diagram) itself. One of the most common errors in Bible interpretation among all professing Christians is they FAIL to provide the right number of years INSIDE the “Day of the Lord” that has a beginning with our Rapture ‘and’ ENDS with this evil age 1000 years LATER (diagram). Therefore, Paul is describing ‘our’ Rapture in 1Thes. 4:13-17 (cited by Sojourner1) that can happen at any moment, but Christ (Matt. 24) is describing END of the Age events taking place some 1000 years LATER. This means the ‘pre, mid-week and post’ tribulation Rapture theories are all OFF by the same 1000 Years contained within the Day of the Lord, because the substance of ‘the truth’ contained in Peter’s words completely escape their notice:

“But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord ONE DAY is like a thousand years, and A THOUSAND YEARS like one day. . . . But the Day of the Lord [see 1Thes 5:1-2, 2Thes 2:1-2] will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.” 2Peter 3:8-10.

While the END of the Age and the END of the 1000 Year Day of the Lord will see the heavens and earth pass away (Rev. 20:11-15), the ‘times and epochs’ period described by Paul as starting with our Rapture (2Thes 2:2 = "has come.") includes the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel prophesied by Christ after God raised Him from the dead! The very first question from the disciples in on this very point:

“So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs [see 1Thes 5:1-2 again] which the Father has fixed by His own authority . . .”. Acts 1:6-7.

Paul had no reason to write about these 'times and epochs' events taking place 'inside' the 1000 Year Day of the Lord, because 'we' will see all of that from "His Heavenly Kingdom." 2Tim 4:18. Jesus Christ is talking about the ‘times and epochs’ period contained within the 1000 Year Day of the Lord itself (diagram again) in which Elijah comes to restore all things to include the Kingdom for Israel (Eze. 47-48). Satan and the antichrist reek havoc on the restored kingdom of Israel at the END of the age (Matt. 24:15/Daniel = "his time" of 2Thes 2:6) that is still over 1000 years in the future at the END of the 1000 Year Day of the Lord that has yet to even begin with ‘our’ mystery gathering to the Lord. We are the members of “Christ’s BODY” (1Cor 12:27) baptized into His Body (see 1Cor 12:12-14, Gal. 3:27) making ready to replace the evil powers of this darkness (Eph 6:12) about to be chained with Satan to START the 1000 Year Day of the Lord. God must prepare the “Body of Christ” to assume those heavenly positions where ‘we’ shall judge the world and the angels (1Cor 6:2-3), before He can chain Satan and the members of his evil body during the upcoming 1000 Year Day of the Lord. God then releases the sons of disobedience gradually (diagram = far left) during the “Seventy Weeks” Decree (advanced diagram) which escalates completely out of control to find David (Eze. 34:23-25) ‘cut off’ as the Messiah (Dan. 9:26) over the Kingdom of God “on earth AS IT IS in heaven.” Matt. 6:10. Therefore, ‘the truth’ of this Rapture topic is that our mystery church is gathered to the Lord (1Thes. 4:16-17) ‘before’ the Great Tribulation, but 1000 years ‘before’ anything related to that END of the Age event takes place.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[HarrisonS]

Wow, I can't even believe that would come out of the mouth of a Christian, but these days, nothing surprises me. Just as the Pharisees believed THEY only could really expound on the law, even today, we have people who think a Bible doctorate gives on credibility on properly interpreting the bible (and BTW, even the so called SCHOLARS disagree on many things, so where does that leave us?)

Do you not believe that the Holy Spirit can open someone's eyes so that they can see the BIG picture of God's plan, seeing all those passages in TRUE context? I do believe that...............just as Jesus chose "simple" men to be His disciples, He has made it known that the wise many times are only wise in their own eyes, but not the Lord's.............He delights in revealing Himself to the simple who long to know Him and to walk in His will. For me, the "professionals" dont' impress me a bit, and I doubt they impress the Lord either when they all are teaching different things on the same issues.............

I would like to clarify my comments regarding Bible study. In no way am I advocating that Christians should not engage in in-depth Bible study! Quite the contrary, we all need to be actively engaged in Bible study and memorization, and the more the better. However, there are right ways and wrong ways of doing this!

You are right, the Holy Spirit does illuminate the believer as he/she studies the Bible, but God has also provided us with many essential tools which we need to use to correctly understand Scripture. Godly scholars have studied the Bible for centuries, and we all need to avail ourselves of the results of their work. There are many wonderful commentaries and other resources (CDs, tapes, radio programs, etc.), and we all need to use them! No one, and I mean no one, no matter how learned, is qualified to “go it alone” in extracting theological doctrine from Scripture. Every pastor who is any good as a teacher will spend hours in study before preaching an expository or doctrinal sermon.

We “stand on the shoulders of giants who have gone before us”, and we must not throw away the fruits of their labor. It is reckless and perhaps even egotistical for anyone to think that they can figure it all out by themselves. Sadly, there are a few who seem to be doing just that, and show an appalling disregard of sound Bible interpretation methods. I think that this is the main reason that we have such a diversity of opinions on this site! Where would modern science be today if everyone ignored all prior research and data, and tried to impose their own opinions on everyone else. Actually there was one “scientist” who did just that. His name was Charles Darwin!