A Paradoxical Heavenly Quandary

[RDKirk]

So this seems rather awful for an idea of "heaven". To be with your loved ones (hopefully) for eternity and yet some of those things about them that you loved so much are gone. An existence where many of the greatest aspects of humanity are stripped away.

It goes to the point I was making about becoming "less than human" in this sinless, virtue-less place where you can do as you like as long as it's within God's rules.

There will be an understanding of what happens when God's plan is not followed--in other words, a true understanding of both the physical principles of nature and the supernatural principles as well. We understand the physical principles of gravitational attraction, so we don't leap off buildings. Most of us don't really need "rules" prohibiting leaping off buildings--we understand the consequences and seek to avoid them.

There are supernatural principles as well, and ignoring them leads to disastrous consequences. We seek to understand those principles and seek to avoid those consequences.

 

[Smidlee]

So this seems rather awful for an idea of "heaven". To be with your loved ones (hopefully) for eternity and yet some of those things about them that you loved so much are gone. An existence where many of the greatest aspects of humanity are stripped away.

It goes to the point I was making about becoming "less than human" in this sinless, virtue-less place where you can do as you like as long as it's within God's rules.

To a lost person you have a point. After God strip away the sin there is nothing left. I think they would probably find heaven miserable.

Most of us heard the story of the Prodigal Son but few heard the other side of the story; The Prodigal Pig. This pig heard the son talk about the father's house and how wonderful it was so he decided he will go along with the son back to the father house. The first thing the pig saw when walking through the door was one of his cousins on the table with an apple in it's mouth. Then the pig was given a shower which he hated. Everything was so clean and no mud in sight. The pig was miserable and went running out the door to jumped in the nearest mud puddle it could find. The pig went back to his father and told how horrible it was living in the father's house.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Well there's other questions I'm not going into here because I think the question I've asked is complicated enough...

In regards to your question...I honestly don't know. Sin in "heaven" leads to some odd scenarios. On the surface, a perfect existence sounds wonderful...but given some thought, it seems...boring. An unchanging state without real growth. I find it odd that an existence of eternal torment seems easier to conceptualize than an existence without any torment. They both seem awful in their own way...yet it doesn't seem to concern those who believe it awaits them in the least.

Edit: upon further thought, if calm assurances were enough for me I probably wouldn't be an atheist to begin with.

I agree against an unchanging state without growth. I expect eternal growth.

As for the boring state of never having any problems . . . I sometimes have fun supposing that people who are getting bored with "perfection" in heaven take a "vacation" by their soul implanted into a new life here on earth, which shocks the boredom right out of them when they live it and finally die again . . .

not that i think that really happens, its just one of those odd things I think up now and then.

 

[Ana the Ist]

To a lost person you have a point. After God strip away the sin there is nothing left. I think they would probably find heaven miserable.

Most of us heard the story of the Prodigal Son but few heard the other side of the story; The Prodigal Pig. This pig heard the son talk about the father's house and how wonderful it was so he decided he will go along with the son back to the father house. The first thing the pig saw when walking through the door was one of his cousins on the table with an apple in it's mouth. Then the pig was given a shower which he hated. Everything was so clean and no mud in sight. The pig was miserable and went running out the door to jumped in the nearest mud puddle it could find. The pig went back to his father and told how horrible it was living in the father's house.

I don't think that by taking away someone's choice to sin nothing is left...simply that what is left is less than what it was. If it's in man's nature to sin, to have the desire to sin, you can't strip that away and claim the end result is somehow more perfect. After all, I think I've shown you would be stripped of virtue at the same time.

However, I'm sure you don't consider yourself a "lost person"...so why not take a crack at explaining it?

Btw, I love the pig story....It's really cute. I remember talking pigs in the bible, but I don't remember that one. He showers too!

 

[Archaeopteryx]

What you are describing is the last dispensation which is the Millennial Kingdom. If God doesn't allow these dispensation to take place then you could make this point to God. But God already ahead of you as He is planning to test your theory.

Why couldn't he have done so from the beginning, and thus avoided introducing evil to the world? Why does he have to "test it" anyway? Being omniscient, he already knows the outcome.

 

[RDKirk]

Why couldn't he have done so from the beginning, and thus avoided introducing evil to the world? Why does he have to "test it" anyway? Being omniscient, he already knows the outcome.

But we aren't and we don't.

'Way bock during the Vietnam war when I went into basic training, on the second or third day the instructors drove us past the obstacle course, which they called the Confidence Course. If you haven't been in the military, you've probably still seen them in movies or on television, but that doesn't give you the same view of a full half mile of difficult physical tasks.

For a bunch of kids--many of whom hadn't even walked a half mile before, it was absolutely daunting. When the instructors told us, "You must complete the Confidence Course in 25 minutes to finish basic training," a lot of kids dismayed.

But the instructors knew what we didn't know. They knew that their physical training regimen over the next weeks would transform us to such an extent that those who persevered to the end to start the course would finish it. We ourselves would not realize how much we had been transformed by their training until after we'd completed the course--which is why it was the Confidence Course.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Ana the 1st. It seems to me quite straightforward, and here is what I think. Adam and Eve were happy with God in the Garden of Eden, until the Serpent came and tempted them into disobeying God, to eat of the Tree they should not have eaten. Adam and Eve are our proto-types, and all who came after, have somehow inherited the sinful nature. We are all tarred with the same brush. We were banished to Earth, to overcome and get rid of that selfish and unloving Character-Trait.
God is Love, and God wants Loving and Caring sons and daughters. The O.T.
tells us in detail just how bad and selfish we were all, and how badly we needed a Saviour, to help us and shed these sinful characters of ours. The Bible tells us to " Repent and to be Born Again," and Jesus came and told us and showed us what God wants from us. In Matthew 5: 48: we are told by Jesus: " Be ye therefore perfect, as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect"
In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us; " The first and great Commandment is:
Love God with all your hearts, with all your souls, and with all your minds.
The second is like it: Love your neighbour as you love yourself." That is what God wants from us, Love God with all our beings, and love our neighbour as we love ourselves. We have to treat all we know and all we meet, as we would love to be treated: kindly and always with friendly and helpful words.
How do we do this? We start by asking in Mathew 7: 7-10: for Love and Joy, then we thank God, and share all Love and Joy with our neighbour. We keep asking and thanking God, then share all Love and all Joy with all around us.
God will see how we follow His Commandments to Love and Joy, and God will Bless us for our loving efforts. We are on Earth to learn to love and care, and then in Heaven we will be the same. Jesus our Saviour will help and guide us.
We have years to learn to become as God wants us to be, and it is not a
Paradoxical Heavenly Quandary, it is a wonderful future which our Father in Heaven has for us. I say this with love, Ana the First. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Dear Ana the 1st. It seems to me quite straightforward, and here is what I think. Adam and Eve were happy with God in the Garden of Eden, until the Serpent came and tempted them into disobeying God, to eat of the Tree they should not have eaten. Adam and Eve are our proto-types, and all who came after, have somehow inherited the sinful nature. We are all tarred with the same brush. We were banished to Earth, to overcome and get rid of that selfish and unloving Character-Trait.
God is Love, and God wants Loving and Caring sons and daughters. The O.T.
tells us in detail just how bad and selfish we were all, and how badly we needed a Saviour, to help us and shed these sinful characters of ours. The Bible tells us to " Repent and to be Born Again," and Jesus came and told us and showed us what God wants from us. In Matthew 5: 48: we are told by Jesus: " Be ye therefore perfect, as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect"
In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us; " The first and great Commandment is:
Love God with all your hearts, with all your souls, and with all your minds.
The second is like it: Love your neighbour as you love yourself." That is what God wants from us, Love God with all our beings, and love our neighbour as we love ourselves. We have to treat all we know and all we meet, as we would love to be treated: kindly and always with friendly and helpful words.
How do we do this? We start by asking in Mathew 7: 7-10: for Love and Joy, then we thank God, and share all Love and Joy with our neighbour. We keep asking and thanking God, then share all Love and all Joy with all around us.
God will see how we follow His Commandments to Love and Joy, and God will Bless us for our loving efforts. We are on Earth to learn to love and care, and then in Heaven we will be the same. Jesus our Saviour will help and guide us.
We have years to learn to become as God wants us to be, and it is not a
Paradoxical Heavenly Quandary, it is a wonderful future which our Father in Heaven has for us. I say this with love, Ana the First. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

Thanks for the reply Emmy! Are you aware there's an award named after you?!?

I guess what I'd ask you is, what do you think heaven's like? Is it a place without sin? Or do we get to indulge in whatever pleasures we may want?

I understand what you're saying about christians trying to be better people...but I'll go out on a limb here and guess that no one dies as a perfect person. So if you make it to heaven, does god strip away those parts of you that aren't "perfect"?

 

[keith99]

To a lost person you have a point. After God strip away the sin there is nothing left. I think they would probably find heaven miserable.

Most of us heard the story of the Prodigal Son but few heard the other side of the story; The Prodigal Pig. This pig heard the son talk about the father's house and how wonderful it was so he decided he will go along with the son back to the father house. The first thing the pig saw when walking through the door was one of his cousins on the table with an apple in it's mouth. Then the pig was given a shower which he hated. Everything was so clean and no mud in sight. The pig was miserable and went running out the door to jumped in the nearest mud puddle it could find. The pig went back to his father and told how horrible it was living in the father's house.

Doh!

Pigs are actually clean animals given a choice. And of course there would never be a pig on a Jewish table.

 

[keith99]

But we aren't and we don't.

'Way bock during the Vietnam war when I went into basic training, on the second or third day the instructors drove us past the obstacle course, which they called the Confidence Course. If you haven't been in the military, you've probably still seen them in movies or on television, but that doesn't give you the same view of a full half mile of difficult physical tasks.

For a bunch of kids--many of whom hadn't even walked a half mile before, it was absolutely daunting. When the instructors told us, "You must complete the Confidence Course in 25 minutes to finish basic training," a lot of kids dismayed.

But the instructors knew what we didn't know. They knew that their physical training regimen over the next weeks would transform us to such an extent that those who persevered to the end to start the course would finish it. We ourselves would not realize how much we had been transformed by their training until after we'd completed the course--which is why it was the Confidence Course.

I've seen them. Piece of cake for 18 year old me.

 

[RDKirk]

I've seen them. Piece of cake for 18 year old me.

I had run track in high school, so I wasn't too worried.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Doh!

Pigs are actually clean animals given a choice. And of course there would never be a pig on a Jewish table.

Yea...but it's a talking pig! That takes showers, not baths mind you, showers.

 

[Smidlee]

Why couldn't he have done so from the beginning, and thus avoided introducing evil to the world? Why does he have to "test it" anyway? Being omniscient, he already knows the outcome.

Oh He's not testing for Himself but to convince the world there was no other Way. Jesus prayed if there were any other way let the cup pass from Him. When God gave Israel the Law He warned them they couldn't keep it but they insisted they could.

Doh!

Pigs are actually clean animals given a choice. And of course there would never be a pig on a Jewish table.

You do know there's no mention in the parable of the Prodigal Son of a pig following him home right? It's just to illustrate a point and not to be taken literally.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Oh He's not testing for Himself but to convince the world there was no other Way. Jesus prayed if there were any other way let the cup pass from Him. When God gave Israel the Law He warned them they couldn't keep it but they insisted they could.

He could convince us of that effortlessly without the need for The Fall or anything else that follows, as we've already discussed.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Oh He's not testing for Himself but to convince the world there was no other Way. Jesus prayed if there were any other way let the cup pass from Him. When God gave Israel the Law He warned them they couldn't keep it but they insisted they could.


You do know there's no mention in the parable of the Prodigal Son of a pig following him home right? It's just to illustrate a point and not to be taken literally.

What was the point?