A Paradoxical Heavenly Quandary

[Usus Vox Tractus]

The transfiguration was a matter of the Fathers reflected glory...as Moses face when he came down from Sinai

Perhaps transfiguration is required to withstand God's glory. *shrug*

 

[Ana the Ist]

You can choose the red pill or the blue one.

Lol not sure if you're serious or joking... but it was funny.

 

[Ana the Ist]

If you had infinity to play with and the universe to travel, do you really think your current pursuits would still captivate your interests?

"I've known adventures, seen places you people will never see, I've been Offworld and back... frontiers! I've stood on the back deck of a blinker bound for the Plutition Camps with sweat in my eyes watching the stars fight on the shoulder of Orion...I've felt wind in my hair, riding test boats off the black galaxies and seen an attack fleet burn like a match and disappear. I've seen it, felt it...!" -- Roy Baty

Lol well I have infinity to do it right? I'd want to do it all...and from the sounds, I cannot.

It's very odd how the posters who've responded try to describe it as. It's as if by taking away this part of you....you become "more"...but I just can't see it that way. What is a virtue when you cannot be un-virtuous? Would doing "good" mean anything or carry any weight when I cannot do wrong? Any way you slice it...it seems to me you end up as less than human.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Lol well I have infinity to do it right? I'd want to do it all...and from the sounds, I cannot.

It's very odd how the posters who've responded try to describe it as. It's as if by taking away this part of you....you become "more"...but I just can't see it that way. What is a virtue when you cannot be un-virtuous? Would doing "good" mean anything or carry any weight when I cannot do wrong? Any way you slice it...it seems to me you end up as less than human.

Not really. When I was a baby, I'd mess my pants in all innocence. Now to do that is a sin. I avoid it. This does not make me less than human. In the same way, we will not be less than human in heaven. We will be enhanced, not diminished.

Still, though, we won't be able to all sit down and have a nice game of poker. We would psychically know what the other guys hand was and there would be no point.

 

[RDKirk]

Lol well I have infinity to do it right? I'd want to do it all...and from the sounds, I cannot.

It's very odd how the posters who've responded try to describe it as. It's as if by taking away this part of you....you become "more"...but I just can't see it that way. What is a virtue when you cannot be un-virtuous? Would doing "good" mean anything or carry any weight when I cannot do wrong? Any way you slice it...it seems to me you end up as less than human.

You don't complain when a surgeon removes a malignant tumor, do you? That cancer is totally "part of you"--it's not a foreign body, it's produced by your own cells.

But you have a choice in whether you want the malignant cancer removed, and you have a choice in this as well.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Not really. When I was a baby, I'd mess my pants in all innocence. Now to do that is a sin. I avoid it. This does not make me less than human. In the same way, we will not be less than human in heaven. We will be enhanced, not diminished.

Still, though, we won't be able to all sit down and have a nice game of poker. We would psychically know what the other guys hand was and there would be no point.

I can't see the analogy...it falls a bit short to me. Surely, as a christian, you know what sin is...yet you still do it. To say that you know what sin is in heaven...and yet for some reason (and several reasons have popped up in this thread)...implies to me the inability to choose. Otherwise, why wouldn't you just choose to stop sinning now?

 

[Ana the Ist]

You don't complain when a surgeon removes a malignant tumor, do you? That cancer is totally "part of you"--it's not a foreign body, it's produced by your own cells.

But you have a choice in whether you want the malignant cancer removed, and you have a choice in this as well.

My reply to this would be almost exactly the same as the one I just gave to Paul of Eugene OR.

Perhaps a practical example would be in order...

If you could never lie (a sin, yes?) would anyone ever think you "good" for telling the truth? The truth would still be useful...as a truth in of itself. However, it loses any virtue one might associate with it.

 

[RDKirk]

My reply to this would be almost exactly the same as the one I just gave to Paul of Eugene OR.

Well, you are an atheist--did either you or I expect you to accept it?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well, you are an atheist--did either you or I expect you to accept it?

I'm just trying to understand RD...or perhaps be understood.

Suppose we built a robot which was designed to rescue children from burning wreckages...

Would you think this robot to be brave, noble, selfless...or any of the other virtues we would associate with a person who does the same? I would think not...and for no other reason than it cannot choose to do otherwise. It seems to me that were you to remove the ability (or even merely the desire) to sin and you automatically remove some of.the most beautiful aspects of people.

Indeed without the choice, they really don't resemble people anymore.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

I can't see the analogy...it falls a bit short to me. Surely, as a christian, you know what sin is...yet you still do it. To say that you know what sin is in heaven...and yet for some reason (and several reasons have popped up in this thread)...implies to me the inability to choose. Otherwise, why wouldn't you just choose to stop sinning now?

Gee, I haven't sinned for at least an hour . . . what are you talking about?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Gee, I haven't sinned for at least an hour . . . what are you talking about?

Lol

Do you at least see my point though?

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Lol

Do you at least see my point though?

Well, as you say, the ability to "sin" seems to be an essential part of our identity . . . but we also believe Jesus managed a life on earth without sin.

We know we have forgiveness of sin committed in our time here on earth.

Suppose we did sin in heaven . . . is there any reason to suppose our sin there would not be forgiven in the same way?

Maybe if you had the calm assurance you could always sin if you really wanted to . . . you wouldn't have to in order to be content that you were fully human?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well, as you say, the ability to "sin" seems to be an essential part of our identity . . . but we also believe Jesus managed a life on earth without sin.

We know we have forgiveness of sin committed in our time here on earth.

Suppose we did sin in heaven . . . is there any reason to suppose our sin there would not be forgiven in the same way?

Maybe if you had the calm assurance you could always sin if you really wanted to . . . you wouldn't have to in order to be content that you were fully human?

Well there's other questions I'm not going into here because I think the question I've asked is complicated enough...

In regards to your question...I honestly don't know. Sin in "heaven" leads to some odd scenarios. On the surface, a perfect existence sounds wonderful...but given some thought, it seems...boring. An unchanging state without real growth. I find it odd that an existence of eternal torment seems easier to conceptualize than an existence without any torment. They both seem awful in their own way...yet it doesn't seem to concern those who believe it awaits them in the least.

Edit: upon further thought, if calm assurances were enough for me I probably wouldn't be an atheist to begin with.

 

[RDKirk]

I'm just trying to understand RD...or perhaps be understood.

Back when I was doing intelligence interrogations I was trying to understand, and that did not include pushing the subject's statements back at him in pejorative terms. That does not encourage communication, that shuts it down.

Suppose we built a robot which was designed to rescue children from burning wreckages...

Would you think this robot to be brave, noble, selfless...or any of the other virtues we would associate with a person who does the same? I would think not...and for no other reason than it cannot choose to do otherwise. It seems to me that were you to remove the ability (or even merely the desire) to sin and you automatically remove some of.the most beautiful aspects of people.

Indeed without the choice, they really don't resemble people anymore.

Oh, then I think you were not actually reading my posts. Go back to my post #77.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

The glory of God comes to mind....if every peace..love..satisfaction...and happiness feeling you had ever had was multiplied by infinity in you....you would not desire anything other than to remain...IMO

Then why create such a protracted and serpentine path to heaven? Simply expose all human beings to this indescribable joy and they will never at all contemplate sin, no matter what the temptation. In this scenario, The Fall is completely avoided. Thus, there is no death or suffering, and everyone ever created lives in perfect communion with the deity. Why not do that from the very beginning and avoid this whole mess that is The Fall?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Back when I was doing intelligence interrogations I was trying to understand, and that did not include pushing the subject's statements back at him in pejorative terms. That does not encourage communication, that shuts it down.



Oh, then I think you were not actually reading my posts. Go back to my post #77.

Where did I push your statement back at you in pejorative terms? I went back and read the last 4-5 exchanges between us...I'm not seeing it. I certainly didn't mean to cause offense, but it's going to be hard to avoid in the future if I don't know what I said that offended you.

I don't see how that post relates to what I'm saying here. Is this the part you're referring to?

"But knowing the consequences, and having gained that knowledge by a very tough lesson that will stick to us for eternity, the response to any future conception of evil will be, "Oh, hell, no!""

In the analogy I'm using here, I'm allowing for a scenario wherein sin isn't committed...and showing how there ceases to be any virtue because of it. Allow me to try again...

Suppose RDKirk cannot/doesn't lie anymore (the reason why he cannot/doesn't is inconsequential). Whenever someone asks something of RDKirk...they know they will always get the truth. Now, the truth is still a useful thing in of itself...but would it ever be considered a "good" or virtuous thing coming from RDKirk? Would anyone ever say..."It was good of RDKirk to tell me the truth there."? I would think that in order for someone to think so...at least one person in heaven would have to lie. Otherwise what you have is an expected norm, a baseline behavior without anything it can be compared to. At best, it might retain virtue for awhile as people still remember what it's like to be lied to...but we're speaking of eternity aren't we? I don't think it would take even 1000 years for everyone to no longer place any virtue in telling a truth.

A question I'd ask after reading post 77 again would be...why would you be unable to fully comprehend the consequences of a sin right now? Sticking with the lie example...I understand how it could do someone harm. I understand how it could affect someone emotionally. I frequently consider the consequences before I lie...I think many people do, and yet they still lie. If there are some hidden consequences that are so awful I'd never "want" to lie again...why wouldn't god just make these known to us now? Doesn't that take away the weight of the sin if I can never really be aware of the consequences of what I'm doing? Would you convict a murderer if he could prove that he never knew the consequences of his actions would lead to someone's death?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

You know, it's entirely possible the problem is on my end and I'm just not getting what you're saying.

For me, if I were in some world where my body couldn't be damaged and I cannot die....why not shoot heroin? What's the downside? There's no brain damage, no withdrawal, no risk of death. You don't need to worry about becoming addicted and losing 10 years of your life to it.

For me at least, you take away death and bodily harm...and it opens a whole floodgate of stuff that most would call sins that I'd never do.

I am, at the very least, assuming that the universal source of Life has some sort of rational moral code to which Death is opposed. Take away Death, and even the inclination to disobey the true pattern of Living is taken away as well.

In other words, I'm not trying to develop a universal moral code based on reason alone that would apply both in the historical now and and in the eschatological later, and based on the fact that in the historical now our lives our death-centric. I'm trying to explain why dying ultimately ends all inclination to sin- not simply because it is death, but because it is Death as opposed to Life. And neither of those terms are as simple as mortality and immortality. They're God and inner-Triune life of love and the structure that that self-giving, self-sacrificing, self-donating love gives to all of his creation, and the Death-impulse that draws everything away from it. So take Death away, and you don't just have reasons not to sin (or to sin, as in your heroin example), but you are left with the whole cosmos being filled with that Pattern of Life that conforms to the inner life the Trinity. And, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, not only with our death-centric flesh no longer be our means of living, but our renewed bodies will be alive with the Spirit's own life, made and kept alive through God's own immortality. In the words of St. Athanasius of Alexandria, "God became man that man might become god."

 

[RDKirk]

In the analogy I'm using here, I'm allowing for a scenario wherein sin isn't committed...and showing how there ceases to be any virtue because of it. Allow me to try again...

Sure, the term "virtue" loses its effective meaning, having nothing with which to compare it.

So?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Sure, the term "virtue" loses its effective meaning, having nothing with which to compare it.

So?

So this seems rather awful for an idea of "heaven". To be with your loved ones (hopefully) for eternity and yet some of those things about them that you loved so much are gone. An existence where many of the greatest aspects of humanity are stripped away.

It goes to the point I was making about becoming "less than human" in this sinless, virtue-less place where you can do as you like as long as it's within God's rules.

 

[Smidlee]

Then why create such a protracted and serpentine path to heaven? Simply expose all human beings to this indescribable joy and they will never at all contemplate sin, no matter what the temptation. In this scenario, The Fall is completely avoided. Thus, there is no death or suffering, and everyone ever created lives in perfect communion with the deity. Why not do that from the very beginning and avoid this whole mess that is The Fall?

What you are describing is the last dispensation which is the Millennial Kingdom. If God doesn't allow these dispensation to take place then you could make this point to God. But God already ahead of you as He is planning to test your theory.