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A Paradoxical Heavenly Quandary

Tree of Life

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Our sinful desires are part of our death-centric lives. Once we pass through death and leave that part of ourselves that always lives with death on the horizon (or physical bodies), our souls will be liberated from those desires.

This is interesting. I haven't heard anyone put it this way before. What are some sinful desires that you'd identify that exist because of the reality of death?
 
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Ana the Ist

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Our sinful desires are part of our death-centric lives. Once we pass through death and leave that part of ourselves that always lives with death on the horizon (or physical bodies), our souls will be liberated from those desires.

Of course, souls are also sinful, and thus Christians believe that we need to be forgiven as well as simply dying. But the source of the evil inclinations is our flesh, as we seek to satiate it.

I'm not sure what you're saying about "death centric" lives...

Are you implying that I enjoyed pre-marital sex because I know I'm going to die?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Well whether you look at it as a good thing or bad isn't all that relevant is it? The result either way is that choice is taken from you...correct?

I don't think that choice is taken. It's more like you transcend to such a point that you become fully aware of 'reality,' and you wouldn't want to choose against God.

It's kind of like this analogy: Satan, despite the fact that he apostasized from God, didn't have God holding his hand. However, becoming a glorified Christian in eternity, with the Trinitarian fullness of God, is similar in state to the angels, but with God eternally holding your hand, a hand that you already chose to hold in your previous terrestrial state.
 
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Tree of Life

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Gotcha. So why not make us as such now? Why wait until we get into heaven?

God could've created a perfect world fully inhabited full of glorified forgiven sinners. He could've created the consummate state right from the start, I suppose. But instead he started with one human couple, allowed them to fall into sin, and initiated a several thousand year process of redemption that is still not yet complete.

I suppose he wanted a story to unfold.
 
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CabVet

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Our sinful desires are part of our death-centric lives. Once we pass through death and leave that part of ourselves that always lives with death on the horizon (or physical bodies), our souls will be liberated from those desires.

So, no free will in heaven?

Of course, souls are also sinful, and thus Christians believe that we need to be forgiven as well as simply dying. But the source of the evil inclinations is our flesh, as we seek to satiate it.

And who designed that flesh again?
 
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Ana the Ist

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I don't think that choice is taken. It's more like you transcend to such a point that you become fully aware of 'reality,' and you wouldn't want to choose against God.

So...he changes you in a way that you wouldn't ever want to disobey him...to do anything he wouldn't want you doing....is that about it?
 
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CabVet

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God could've created a perfect world fully inhabited full of glorified forgiven sinners. He could've created the consummate state right from the start, I suppose. But instead he started with one human couple, allowed them to fall into sin, and initiated a several thousand year process of redemption that is still not yet complete.

I suppose he wanted a story to unfold.

"Unfold" shouldn't be a word in the dictionary of a deity that knows everything, past, present, and future.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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This is interesting. I haven't heard anyone put it this way before. What are some sinful desires that you'd identify that exist because of the reality of death?

I think because death characterizes the end-point for all human existence, we tend to focus on the temporal instead of the eternal; immediate satisfaction over delayed gratification. Premarital sex, for instance, is something we seize onto because either we don't want to wait for sex within the context of marriage or because we want to grab all the pleasure we can out of life. Or internal sins, like lust, in which we look for temporal goods on this side of death/eternity, instead of looking for ultimate Goods that come to us from the other side.

Once our flesh and gone and we've passed through death, the only question that remains is whether what remains of the person (the "soul") is free from the guilt that our death-centric life brought on us or whether we carry that guilt to the other side.

This view is basically the view of Augustine, and Augustine's interpretation of Paul's flesh/spirit opposition, but put in the language of the non-Christian philosopher Martin Heidegger.
 
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Ana the Ist

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To add to my previous post... It was God's will that heaven would be inhabited by forgiven, glorified sinners (ex-sinners). The story of sin and redemption has to be part of that if that's what he wants, right?

I don't see why. If he wants you in this state with him, and he can change you into this state with him, then why not simply do it? Why all the pointless pretense and burning of sinners?
 
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Tree of Life

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I think because death characterizes the end-point for all human existence, we tend to focus on the temporal instead of the eternal; immediate satisfaction over delayed gratification. Premarital sex, for instance, is something we seize onto because either we don't want to wait for sex within the context of marriage or because we want to grab all the pleasure we can out of life. Or internal sins, like lust, in which we look for temporal goods on this side of death/eternity, instead of looking for ultimate Goods that come to us from the other side.

Once our flesh and gone and we've passed through death, the only question that remains is whether what remains of the person (the "soul") is free from the guilt that our death-centric life brought on us or whether we carry that guilt to the other side.

This view is basically the view of Augustine, and Augustine's interpretation of Paul's flesh/spirit opposition, but put in the language of the non-Christian philosopher Martin Heidegger.

Where can I read more of Augustine's take on this?
 
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Ana the Ist

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I think because death characterizes the end-point for all human existence, we tend to focus on the temporal instead of the eternal; immediate satisfaction over delayed gratification. Premarital sex, for instance, is something we seize onto because either we don't want to wait for sex within the context of marriage or because we want to grab all the pleasure we can out of life. Or internal sins, like lust, in which we look for temporal goods on this side of death/eternity, instead of looking for ultimate Goods that come to us from the other side.

Once our flesh and gone and we've passed through death, the only question that remains is whether what remains of the person (the "soul") is free from the guilt that our death-centric life brought on us or whether we carry that guilt to the other side.

This view is basically the view of Augustine, and Augustine's interpretation of Paul's flesh/spirit opposition, but put in the language of the non-Christian philosopher Martin Heidegger.

Lol and here all this time I thought I did things that feel good because they felt good...
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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So, no free will in heaven?

That's not even close to what I said. In "heaven" we could conceivably still have the free will to sin, but without the death-centric flesh that characterizes our mortal existence, there will be no appeal to sin whatsoever.

And who designed that flesh again?

Evolutionary processes taking millions of years which couldn't possibly end up in any natural way developing human flesh and organs and bone that wouldn't end up dying. But God is at work to elevate humanity out of it's purely material origins and into God's own immortal, divine, perfect life.
 
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Tree of Life

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I don't see why. If he wants you in this state with him, and he can change you into this state with him, then why not simply do it? Why all the pointless pretense and burning of sinners?

If God wants heaven to be inhabited by forgiven sinners then a human history has to play out in which sin happens and sinners exist. God will "simply do it" but at the right time - once the story has played out enough to reach all of the sinners that he desires to reach.

The presence of sin in the story glorifies God. It shows us that God is merciful, forgiving sin, and that he is just, punishing sin. Without sin in the story the fullness of God as a merciful and just God could not be put on display.

The point of the story is to glorify the Lord.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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So...he changes you in a way that you wouldn't ever want to disobey him...to do anything he wouldn't want you doing....is that about it?

Who knows...the Bible isn't clear on that part. What I gather from the New Testament is that you become transcendent in such a way that you wouldn't desire to leave the comfort that you're in. In other words, you will always feel that you've reached the destination that you were striving for during your terrestrial life. Or, we might see it as a person who comes in from the cold, to an eternal place of warmth and comfort (i.e. Christ). If this is the case, how could anything be 'better' than coming in from the frostbiting cold? In a glorified state, everything will be crystal clear; you'll absolutely know that there is 'no better place' than with Jesus in eternity.
 
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CabVet

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If God wants heaven to be inhabited by forgiven sinners then a human history has to play out in which sin happens and sinners exist. God will "simply do it" but at the right time - once the story has played out enough to reach all of the sinners that he desires to reach.

The presence of sin in the story glorifies God. It shows us that God is merciful, forgiving sin, and that he is just, punishing sin. Without sin in the story the fullness of God as a merciful and just God could not be put on display.

The point of the story is to glorify the Lord.

What sort of narcissistic deity would be like that? Really? A God that wants everyone to suffer and go through sin and death just so he can be seen as merciful and just? Come on.
 
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