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A new development to watch closely

Subduction Zone

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Nope, that is not what they did. They set the atmosphere to what was thought to be the Early Earth atmosphere at that time. Later work puts the time of abiogenesis later and the atmosphere was different then. It was tested again with that atmosphere and it still worked. There was no dishonest tweaking.

And you don't seem to understand the purpose of the experiment. At that time there were those that denied that amino acids could form naturally. That would be one of the first steps in abiogenesis. The demonstrated that that claim was wrong and later experiments reconfirmed their work.
 
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pshun2404

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No DISHONEST tweaking just tweaking...we can call it "making adjustments" until they procured the hoped for results but it was not dishonest. And I cannot understand anybody that would deny that normal chemical reactions would or could take place in nature (but that's not life)...even if we found some (which we have not) that could actually "self" assemble or self-replicate, that is not life...
 
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Subduction Zone

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pshun. Once again, they did no change the atmosphere to get the results that they did. Therefore there was no tweaking at all.

What they did was to try to best replicate what the Early Earth atmosphere was thought to be at that time.

Do you understand?

Replicating is never "tweaking".

Later that atmosphere was found to be wrong. So the experiment was run again. In fact it has been run several times with different atmospheres and they were constantly able to get amino acids. Some atmospheres were better than that one.

And if you can't understand why people would deny the obvious you do not understand creationists very well at all. Denying the obvious is a must if one is to be a creationist.
 
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tas8831

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This new hypothesis therefore must ASSUME:

Remind us all about the ASSUMPTIONS YOU employ in choosing to accept bible-based creation?

So one hypothesis ASSUMES that early nucleic acids “assembled themselves” into functional proteins

Proteins are not made of nucleotides.
Well on the side of intelligent design playing a major role in all science
Really?
So to ASSUME such reactions already existed as the cause of forming such reactions in the first place is a logical absurdity, but the hypothesis driven are missing this in their thinking.

And the ABSURDITY of ASSUMING that the tribal deity of ancient middle eastern numerologists was the one TRUE supernatural entity, and the the largely un-original stories they told regarding this deity and his followers were TRUE and ACCURATE depictions of reality?

What is that saying about planks in eyes?
 
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pshun2404

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Tas...aside from the off topic rant (open thread if you wish) I said "ONE HYPOTHESIS" assumes this (there are a number of scientific origins hypotheses)....in the RNA World model they without doubt assume that these NUCEIC ACIDS (RNA) could have self-replicated and formed functional proteins (and yes NOT ALL proteins are nucleic acids) leading to living systems. They ASSUME it because not a single example of self-replicating RNA (a nucleic acid) has ever been found outside a living system in nature (before you go off, yes some have been intelligently designed in laboratories).

Caps for emphasis not emotion

For example, one of the products of RNA inside living systems is the production and use of ribonucleoproiteins. We are informed that RNA-binding proteins (RBPs) are proteins that bind to the double or single stranded RNA in cells participate in forming ribonucleoprotein complexes. See Lunde, B. M.; Moore, C; Varani, G (2007). "RNA-binding proteins: Modular design for efficient function". Nature Reviews Molecular Cell Biology. 8 (6): 479–90.( PMID 17473849. doi:10.1038/nrm2178 ) for more information. According to the article in Wiki, "diversity enabled eukaryotic cells to utilize RNA exons in various arrangements, giving rise to a unique RNP (ribonucleoprotein)." These ribonuceoproteins are functional proteins that assist in a number of various cellular processes (cellular function, transport and localization, splicing, stabilization, and even mRNA translation). Though still little understood without them the Eukaryotic cells as we know of them would no longer function properly.
 
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Speedwell

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Have you defined "life" yet?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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How do we know "proto-cells" even existed long before life began?
We know that proto-cells or vesicles can form spontaneously in what are thought to be early Earth environments. Since life appears to have been cellular since very early times, some researchers feel it's reasonable to hypothesise that metabolism might have got started in the protected environment inside such vesicles.

Isn't this just another assumption of convenience?
It's just one hypothesis; other researchers think that metabolism might have come first and was encapsulated later. There are other ideas also being investigated.

And how do we know proto-cells were these fat vesicles OR that they became real cells?
It's one hypothesis of many. Living cells have lipid bilayer membranes and vesicles, and proto-cell vesicles are lipid bilayer membranes. It's not much of a leap to hypothesise a developmental connection.

It's worth remembering that modern cellular life is the product of several billion years of evolutionary selective refinement. The earliest replicators would probably be very inefficient and wouldn't yet have efficient enzymes - but reactions can be enhanced, even in energetically unfavourable directions, by simple metallic compounds and/or the surface chemistry of rocks and clays. This concept might favour development of metabolism outside of vesicles, with later encapsulation.

E.T.A. Almost forgot - biofunctional dipeptides have been found in meteorites and in outer space.
 
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pshun2404

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Thanks! That was an honest and insightful contribution (as usual). Yes there are a few hypotheses and some are very reasonable. These few dipeptides however are hardly "functional" since they do nothing on their own. I have no problem understanding that various results of the natural process of covelant bonding can produce amino acids anywhere in the universe and we have found a few here on earth as well (in nature outside of a living system) but these are extremely rare. So all the building blocks of what goes into a living thing's structure are there (no doubt here) and under certain conditions could be available. But assembling themselves together or becoming functional proteins that actually perform there purpose? It's a hypothesis...
 
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pshun2404

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Have you defined "life" yet?

No one has done so here yet...the vitality that makes these forms eliminate, respirate, assimilate. reproduce offspring and so on, has not really been discovered or clearly understood (perhaps never). One thing I believe is that with life comes awareness (some form of consciousness) and I do not think that can be easily defined either. We often assume some lower forms have none because they do not share our types of systems (nervous system, brain, etc.) but we really do not know.

Is life simply the process of what happens to matter or is it a separate quality in the universe that only associates with certain levels of material complexity or is it something added by a God? We really do not know from a scientific level.
 
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Speedwell

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In general I agree with that, but the reason I brought up the question is that you stated that a self-replicating entity is not yet life. Without a clear definition, how can you be sure?
 
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pshun2404

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In general I agree with that, but the reason I brought up the question is that you stated that a self-replicating entity is not yet life. Without a clear definition, how can you be sure?

I have seen too many times when scientists (not to be confused with science itself) pour new meaning into or change the meaning of commonly understood terms to support their hypothesis. This is just such a case. "Self-replication" is not "life" even many crystals replicate molecularly. This is the new tendency in the pro-abiogenesis movement...

IF we were to discover free floating RNA or DNA (outside of a living system of part of a designed/controlled experiment dependent on Intelligent intervention) that self-replicates, they would claim to have discovered the key to life, but living things are much, much more as I described above. The production of offspring is far more complex and involved many factors, forms, and forces. Plus all living things respirate, assimilate, digest, and so on and in my opinion, they are all aware of their environment and interact with it respective to their life-form.

If and when we ever find such an independent amino acid (or in a pool of them) that can do this It still would not mean it is alive. Does it move or grow with a determined purpose or goal". Does it respond to threat in a defensive manner? Can it perceive (by what ever means) its surroundings and react appropriately?

So far (and I know how people will explode when I say this) all we have demonstrated and all we have that are observable facts about "self-replicating RNA" is that which by intelligent intervention under conditions designed with intent to test for or derive a particular reaction or result, actually yields some result similar to what we planned and expected.

Add that to the observed and continually demonstrated fact that we have NEVER seen this in nature outside of already extant life and what have we really found evidence for? Think about it? Only when intelligence is involved and creates the conditions necessary for such a thing to happen does it happen (within the extant laws and principles of physics and chemistry which the matter when urged in this way follows and obeys).
 
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pshun2404

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Frumious was right, there are more than a few hypotheses, but we should not confuse any with fact. It may even turn out (as I believe) that these molecular building blocks that life uses and employs are available from many sources (space, volcanoes, vents, and more) not just one or the other.
 
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tas8831

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All your pontificating and 'paraphrasing', and yet still not a single example of scientific evidence supporting intelligent design or creation.
 
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pshun2404

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All your pontificating and 'paraphrasing', and yet still not a single example of scientific evidence supporting intelligent design or creation.

Was that what this thread was about? Maybe you should start one since ALL your comments go there....
 
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AV1611VET

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As long as I can blow up balloons on my birthday, I'm not gonna worry about it.
 
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SkyWriting

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So sunlight promotes life? I was under the impression that
every interested person in the field knew this. When searching
for life I thought most scientists lean toward sunlight as a given.
 
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tas8831

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Was that what this thread was about? Maybe you should start one since ALL your comments go there....


I did.

And I note that ALL your comments appear to be archival, including the quotes you use. You've left a footprint on the internet in these debates. And the footprints seem to proscribe a circle.
 
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tas8831

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So one hypothesis ASSUMES that early nucleic acids “assembled themselves” into functional proteins and RNA which then “assembled themselves” (a further assumption) into higher order functional strands of genetic material.

Why would anyone ASSUME that nucleic acids assembled themselves into proteins?

This suggests enzymatic reactions already occurring.

Enzymes speed up reaction rates, but reactions can occur without them. That a reaction that, for example, we rely on to survive is enzymatic, it does not follow that the reaction does not occur spontaneously. You know why soft drinks bubble? Spontaneous reaction - the same reaction that occurs in your lungs at a much faster rate due to carbonic anhydrase.


This newer suggestion is that Iron-Sulphur clusters (a basic component of all enzymes)

Iron-Sulfur clusters in all enzymes? Carbonic anhydrase does not have an Iron-sulfur cluster.
'Carefully calibrated' reactions?
Things change over time !?!?!!
Strawman argument?

Good question.

It would appear that regardless of one's claimed scientific education and experience, if one is a creationist, their interpretations of any and all evidence is forced to fit into their deity/magic-based models.
Well on the side of intelligent design playing a major role in all science,

Setting up a fallacious 'argument from analogy'?


Are you ASSUMING that no catalytic substances existed?

Why?

The hypothesis driven - as opposed to whom? The "scientists DESIGN experiments, therefore, INTELLIGENT DESIGN is real!" crowd?

And if these results were observed in Nature, you would be saying 'but there is no way to know if these reactions occurred naturally!' or some other all-purpose escape.

I just cannot go on.

This sad 'scientists DESIGN experiments, therefore Jesus' line of "reasoning" is too much.

This thread is titled "A development to watch closely", yet in your OP, and ever since, you have done nothing but try to undermine the work and insult the intelligence of those involved.

What are you trying to accomplish?

*forgot that I had already replied to this, but I bring up some different points here, so I will leave it.
 
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tas8831

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So can obligate anaerobic exist in an oxygen-free environment? (yes). So why do we have so many all-caps words if some forms if life can exist without oxygen, or at least free oxygen?

I'm sure you already know the answer...
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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So sunlight promotes life? I was under the impression that
every interested person in the field knew this. When searching
for life I thought most scientists lean toward sunlight as a given.
Not all abiogenesis hypotheses involve sunlight - in the deep oceanic hydrothermal vents (a popular choice for abiogenesis research), sunlight doesn't reach that far and ecosystems are based on based on bacteria that metabolize sulphur and iron compounds rather than photosynthesis.

Bacteria are also found deep underground in rocks and clays (clays are another popular subject of abiogenesis studies) where sunlight doesn't reach.

Simple life just needs a source of energy and materials to metabolize.
 
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