A new development to watch closely

pshun2404

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In a recent article in Science, (July 2017) titled “How sunlight might have jump-started life on Earth”, writer Roland Pease tells us of e new theory set forth by Geophysicist, Robert Hazen and others postulates the possibility that maybe something as simple as ultra-violet rays could have caused a reaction in Iron-Sulphur clusters that may have formed the first enzymes. And as we know enzymes are responsible for almost all cellular functions. However there are a few assumptions that would need to be confirmed to make the theory plausible.

One of the necessary components for this reaction however are peptides, the presence of a dipeptide being the first essential step leading to the structures in living things. A peptide is defined as “a compound consisting of two or more amino acids linked in a chain, the carboxyl group of each acid being joined to the amino group of the next by a bond of the type -OC-NH-“!

Now the one’s we are aware of at this point are all a part of a living system like:
So far (having expected to find these since the early 20th century) not a single life worthy dipeptide has been found naturally arising outside of the living system.

But recently we have been able to intelligently design some basic di- and poly- peptides inside the laboratory, like:
So the bottom line is in the actual Data we have two kinds...those we know we will find in already extant living systems, and those intelligently designed outside of a living system.

This new hypothesis therefore must ASSUME:

a) first that enzymes DID exist in the early Earth biochemistry, which rely on the presence of

b) basic Amino acid molecules already existing, and next

c) that these were all present in some kind of a primordial soup concept, around 4 billion years ago

So one hypothesis ASSUMES that early nucleic acids “assembled themselves” into functional proteins and RNA which then “assembled themselves” (a further assumption) into higher order functional strands of genetic material. This suggests enzymatic reactions already occurring. This newer suggestion is that Iron-Sulphur clusters (a basic component of all enzymes) have been around at least since the “last common ancestor of all living things” (an additional assumption). YET we know that all the many “carefully calibrated” metabolic reactions INSIDE living cells require oxygen which all modern scientists appear to agree was NOT PRESENT in this early earth!?!

So which came first, the enzymes (usually formed by coding in already extant RNA or DNA) or the cellular environment in which we can actually observe them arising in? Do we rely on and hypothesize based on the actual evidence, or the interpret the evidence to fit the model we suppose?

Well on the side of intelligent design playing a major role in all science, in laboratories Scientists have devised a way to remove oxygen, and then in this oxygen depleted environment mix Iron with glutathione (a sulfur containing peptide ) they claim was likely a predominate factor in the early earth (sound like a similar approach to the Miller/Urey intelligently designed model).

Only that makes little or no sense, because as we know, these already extant peptides would have required some catalytic or enzymatic action just to have formed in the first place. So to ASSUME such reactions already existed as the cause of forming such reactions in the first place is a logical absurdity, but the hypothesis driven are missing this in their thinking. So far replies I receive boil down to “Duh! I cannot understand what you are saying here!”

It is like some kind of cog is stuck not allowing them to process the simple reasonable fact of what this proposes. All they really did in these experiments was show that under intelligently designed conditions in a controlled environment they could produce a form of Iron that could readily interact with sulfur (the sulfur which is bound in already formed peptides).

Out of 30 different compounds they created for trial, a few were found to actually somewhat work if placed INSIDE our intelligently designed fatty acid vesicles (we refer to as proto-cells and use them in labs), SO now this proposes a new problem being ignored or not admitted to, which is that fatty acids contain a carboxylic acid which itself is oxygen dependent to exist.

They seem to agree that also “all the basic chemicals for life (meaning for their structures and functions) can be cooked up in a water –filled impact crater” but AGAIN a “water-filled” crater demonstrates the necessity of oxygen, since oxygen is essential for water to exist and the environment they ASSUME allegedly has none, and if it were as they project in their initial assumptions, in the presence of such high levels of Ultra-violet radiation, water would be almost immediately evaporate were it even able to form in the first place.

Despite these obvious realities, I predict within a year or so many will be persuaded there is some actual truth to this, and after a while it will find its place beside other intelligently designed processes (like Miller/Urey) in classrooms and textbooks everywhere as evidence for an evolutionary source for life.
 

Christie insb

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<<"metabolic reactions INSIDE living cells require <<oxygen which all modern scientists appear to <<agree was NOT PRESENT in this early earth!?!"
Well maybe this is a dumb question but what about anaerobic cells?
 
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Subduction Zone

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<<"metabolic reactions INSIDE living cells require <<oxygen which all modern scientists appear to <<agree was NOT PRESENT in this early earth!?!"
Well maybe this is a dumb question but what about anaerobic cells?
Those that have a hard time understanding science have a tough time telling the difference between oxygen's presence in compounds, which has always existed on the Earth, with molecular O2 which did not exist in any significant amounts until long AFTER life first arose.

By the way, I am not saying that you are the one that is having a difficult time understanding the sciences.
 
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pshun2404

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<<"metabolic reactions INSIDE living cells require <<oxygen which all modern scientists appear to <<agree was NOT PRESENT in this early earth!?!"
Well maybe this is a dumb question but what about anaerobic cells?

Not a dumb question at all...it was me who was not considering anaerobic bacteria...sorry...(though even these processes happen only in already extant life forms)
 
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pshun2404

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Those that have a hard time understanding science have a tough time telling the difference between oxygen's presence in compounds, which has always existed on the Earth, with molecular O2 which did not exist in any significant amounts until long AFTER life first arose.

By the way, I am not saying that you are the one that is having a difficult time understanding the sciences.

You are probably correct on this one Sub, so maybe you can school me here (Please do)...doesn't water form when Oxygen and Hydrogen bond? And if so doesn't this necessitate the presence of Oxygen to precede the formation?

I was taught that water was one of the molecules entering the atmosphere from volcanic activity when life allegedly formed. If that is true where did the original oxygen for the formation of water molecules come from if not from the environment?

The same question applies to the formation of Carboxyl groups..don't they form from carbon and oxygen? Don't both molecules have to be present separately for these to form (bond)?

Maybe I am missing something here so please elaborate...
 
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Subduction Zone

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You are probably correct on this one Sub, so maybe you can school me here (Please do)...doesn't water form when Oxygen and Hydrogen bond? And if so doesn't this necessitate the presence of Oxygen to precede the formation?

I was taught that water was one of the molecules entering the atmosphere from volcanic activity when life allegedly formed. If that is true where did the original oxygen for the formation of water molecules come from if not from the environment?

The same question applies to the formation of Carboxyl groups..don't they form from carbon and oxygen? Don't both molecules have to be present separately for these to form (bond)?

Maybe I am missing something here so please elaborate...

Hydrogen and oxygen are highly reactive. The water that formed the initial seas came to the Earth as water. Water is in fact the second most common molecule in the universe. You should be able to figure out what is the most common molecule without any more help.

And yes, carboxl groups form naturally too. You do realize that the sort of reaction found in the Miller-Urey experiment is not the only natural source for amino acids, don't you?
 
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pshun2404

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And would have happened with the first life on the Earth.

Maybe but I thought the article was discussing a possibility of how the first life came to be...that's why the writer asks which came first...the enzyme or the cell? Did such enzymes cause the cell, or vice versa, or did they both come about simultaneously?
 
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pshun2404

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Hydrogen and oxygen are highly reactive. The water that formed the initial seas came to the Earth as water. Water is in fact the second most common molecule in the universe. You should be able to figure out what is the most common molecule without any more help.

And yes, carboxl groups form naturally too. You do realize that the sort of reaction found in the Miller-Urey experiment is not the only natural source for amino acids, don't you?

"The water that formed the initial seas came to the Earth as water. "

So where did this primordial water come from? The reaction found in the Miller Urey is not one of the Natural sources for amino acids...the experiment along with the required cold trap device were intelligently designed (unless that is what you are trying to defend).
 
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Subduction Zone

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Maybe but I thought the article was discussing a possibility of how the first life came to be...that's why the writer asks which came first...the enzyme or the cell? Did such enzymes cause the cell, or vice versa, or did they both come about simultaneously?
He is suggesting that enzymes arose on their own first
Well, of course proto-cells existed long before life did. Enzymes could have easily been incorporated into proto-cells.
 
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Subduction Zone

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"The water that formed the initial seas came to the Earth as water. "

So where did this primordial water come from? The reaction found in the Miller Urey is not one of the Natural sources for amino acids...the experiment along with the required cold trap device were intelligently designed (unless that is what you are trying to defend).
Space. The dust cloud that formed the planets of our solar system.

And you clearly do not understand the Miller-Urey experiment. The trap mimicked what would be existing natural traps. The experiment was "intelligently designed" to replicate aspects of the Early Earth on a very small scale. This should have been obvious to you.
 
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Christie insb

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Those that have a hard time understanding science have a tough time telling the difference between oxygen's presence in compounds, which has always existed on the Earth, with molecular O2 which did not exist in any significant amounts until long AFTER life first arose.

By the way, I am not saying that you are the one that is having a difficult time understanding the sciences.
Well I am not a scientist but I took about 25 credits of biology and 15 of chemistry in college. I do understand that oxygen exists in compounds, even in "pure oxygen," which is O2. So anyway you did not answer my question. What about anaerobic bacteria?
 
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Subduction Zone

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Well I am not a scientist but I took about 25 credits of biology and 15 of chemistry in college. I do understand that oxygen exists in compounds, even in "pure oxygen," which is O2. So anyway you did not answer my question. What about anaerobic bacteria?

Anaerobic bacteria do not depend upon O2. But I thought your question was aimed at pshun.
 
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Christie insb

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SubductionbZone: [Anaerobic bacteria do not depend upon O2. But I thought your question was aimed at pshun.]
Well that was my point.
YET we know that all the many “carefully calibrated” metabolic reactions INSIDE living cells require oxygen which all modern scientists appear to agree was NOT PRESENT in this early earth!?!
So can obligate anaerobic exist in an oxygen-free environment? (yes). So why do we have so many all-caps words if some forms if life can exist without oxygen, or at least free oxygen?
 
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pshun2404

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He is suggesting that enzymes arose on their own first
Well, of course proto-cells existed long before life did. Enzymes could have easily been incorporated into proto-cells.

How do we know "proto-cells" even existed long before life began? Isn't this just another assumption of convenience? And how do we know proto-cells were these fat vesicles OR that they became real cells?
 
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pshun2404

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He is suggesting that enzymes arose on their own first
Well, of course proto-cells existed long before life did. Enzymes could have easily been incorporated into proto-cells.

"He is suggesting that enzymes arose on their own first"

Yes that is exactly what I thought he was saying and there is ZERO evidence to suppose this. Such life promoting enzymes are functional proteins (an effect which can then cause...a product that has purpose) and no such thing exists outside of or caused by an already extant living system.
 
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pshun2404

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Space. The dust cloud that formed the planets of our solar system.

And you clearly do not understand the Miller-Urey experiment. The trap mimicked what would be existing natural traps. The experiment was "intelligently designed" to replicate aspects of the Early Earth on a very small scale. This should have been obvious to you.

Sorry! What is obvious to me was that they tweaked the original atmospheric model until they came up with one that would be hostile to actual life (which most do not think existed) though was able to produce some amino acids ( actually hostile to long things) which denatured in this artificial and hostile environment and so they devised the cold trap which in no way was present in nature.

Don't get me wrong, it was brilliant, but nothing like creating life in a lab...they did what was needed to get a certain reaction (just good chemistry)
 
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pshun2404

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SubductionbZone: [Anaerobic bacteria do not depend upon O2. But I thought your question was aimed at pshun.]
Well that was my point.
So can obligate anaerobic exist in an oxygen-free environment? (yes). So why do we have so many all-caps words if some forms if life can exist without oxygen, or at least free oxygen?

Yeah some can, and I coped to that one so you are right (my bad)...they were probably referring to oxygen in various compounds not the requirement of O2 for respiration...

but even in these creatures the enzymes arise within the organism do they not?
 
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