A new CF, an old vision (3)

[Athene]

The mods should have been out among the people they had power over, getting to know them and conversing with them. If they haven't been doing that, they weren't doing as good a job as they could have, IMO. If they have been doing that, I don't think everyone is just going to forget all they've contributed.

Exactly, if I don't get voted back on because the members don't know me from Adam then I've only got myself to blame, I clearly have not been doing my job properly.

As it is I am worried about this, since being on staff I haven't been posting in my old forums very much at all. This has been a wake up call for me.

 

[Lisa0315]

The Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement (or simply, Restoration Movement) is a religious reform movement born in the early 1800s in the United States during the Second Great Awakening. Barton W. Stone and Alexander Campbell were leading figures of four independent movements with like principles who merged together into two religious movements of significant size. These churches have a total population of about 4,000,000 in the United States. Restorationism sought to renew the whole Christian church, on the pattern set forth in the New Testament, without regard to the creeds developed over time in Catholicism or Protestantism, which allegedly kept Christianity divided. Churches are now found throughout the globe, claiming to "concentrate on the essential aspects of the Christian faith, allowing for a diversity of understanding with non-essentials."
Among key practices are the weekly celebration of the Lord's Supper on the first day of each week and a commitment to believer's baptism by immersion in water.
Some members of the Churches of Christ object to the phrase "Stone-Campbell Movement" and "Campbellite" as derogatory because of its man-made origin.

 

[suzybeezy]

Most of the incivility came primarily from staff and that's why they felt the need for the dark curtains of secrecy -- so that they could practice their incivility in private; and so that they could violate the rules while pretending to be there to enforce rules.

You've gotta be kidding me!

I think much of the incivility was due to the restrictions and not the people. Any time you impose restrictions on points of view people will butt against them and couple that with a good chunk of the membership here being told for years that they aren't good enough to be part of the whole forum you will get reactions. It's human nature. I think much of that will melt away now. Sure there will be some but did you ever visit GT? Christians certainly are no angels when it comes to civility! This thread proves that point. It's conservative Christians bashing atheists and non-Nicene Christian right out in the open, declarin' war, screaming about threats and so on. The incivility in this thread is all being perpetrated by Christians at this point. I would be more afraid of so called Christians attacking the non-Christians now that the gloves are off rather than the other way around.

I modded many of the debate forums. We had to ban more Christians for being jerks than non-Christians at any given time. That speaks volumes. Go read the open forums again. Most of the vitriol from atheists is in response to stupidity posted by Christians who have been protected by staff time and time again. That protection ends and it will end much of the vitriol.

I agree with the majority of what you've written.

You need to keep in mind, staff didn't create the system, we were stuck with it. I know I was one of the staffers trying to get things fixed - and the execs will confirm I was a thorn in their side trying to improve the broken and uneffective system we had.

With that said, I don't think the system that Erwin is recommending is the answer either.

 

[intricatic]

Nevermind. Appeal to kindness is lost on you. I give up this line of argument. You win!

Why thank you.

 

[sparklecat]

you know its amazing to me how certain members would cry, complain, pout, and bully because they didn't get their way on this site and now that Erwin has caved to their demands those members are looking at us as if there's something wrong with us for being upset and telling us 'if you don't like it you can leave'

can you say "hypocrisy"?

I agree. I may not have used the same words, but we didn't like being told to just leave if we had a problem.


Of course, if instead a person has been threatening to leave for the entire discussion, that's a bit different.

 

[ProdicalChristian]

I'm not focusing on the racist undertones specifically. I'm focusing on the members leaving of their own will because they dislike the policies instituted by the Church. It's distasteful to me because this is a Christian website.

I left Churches when they stopped being "spirit-lead" and changed to "law-lead".

 

[Beastt]

you know its amazing to me how certain members would cry, complain, pout, and bully because they didn't get their way on this site and now that Erwin has caved to their demands those members are looking at us as if there's something wrong with us for being upset and telling us 'if you don't like it you can leave'

can you say "hypocrisy"?

Perhaps you should consider re-reading Erwin's post. As I read it, there was no "caving". Erwin took everything upon himself and made a decision in pursuit of his vision; not the vision of those you suggest forced him to cave.

People have always been free to leave. There is no change there. The difference is that no one is now forced into dark corners with no voice. Now everyone can speak equally. If what they say is more profound, more accepted and more consistent with what can be demonstrated, perhaps you should be listening to what they're saying instead of protesting their new-found right to say it.

 

[Brimshack]

It's exactly as much a responsibility of those in charge as if a Church were to evict it's black members and lose the ideologically motivated white members as a result. Perhaps you're misunderstanding me here.

No, I did not misunderstand you. And your last explanation is not equivalent to your initial charge.

 

[porterross]

You know, I find all this to be quite sad. Conservatives do not and will never have a monopoly on Christianity. I want CF to take a good, hard look at all the festering hatred people are throwing at the "liberals and unchurched" in the name of their god. Look at the way they castigate and insult their neighbors. For what? For Christ Jesus, who came to die for the sins of all mankind?

Get real. People are going on and on about how they need to "protect" themselves from the unbelievers. They say that they want to "witness" to us. And then they go saying such mean-spirited things.

I displayed an Anabaptist icon for most of my time on CF. I preached a message of love and respect for all god's creation. And you know what? People listened. I cannot even begin to try to tell you guys how many times people have told me that I restored their faith in Christians, Christianity, or even Christ himself by the sheer power of friendship.

This is the thanks that I get. If you lot are the true Christians, then it's a miracle that I deconverted when I did.

Christ didn't come to allow people to remain comfortable in their sinful lives. If you think He came with the intent of those who followed Him learning to tolerate those who oppose Him, you know very little of His purpose.

No Peace, but a Sword
Matthew 10:34-39

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."

You have chosen to lose your salvation at this point. It doesn't mean we should sit back and let others be led down the same path by those who have chosen to not accept to inerrancy of the Word of God.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

you know its amazing to me how certain members would cry, complain, pout, and bully because they didn't get their way on this site and now that Erwin has caved to their demands those members are looking at us as if there's something wrong with us for being upset and telling us 'if you don't like it you can leave'

can you say "hypocrisy"?

I for one welcome all the true colors that are being shown here. The only people being told to go are ones who have said they are leaving because of the changes. If they are leaving there is not a reason to indulge their wining any further. If they want to stay and work with the new system then by all means stay. If you are going to leave because you think the new system will be bad without even seeing the whole thing put into place then go ahead and leave already and quit whining about it. The people attempting to use emotional blackmail are being called on it and rightly so. There are many who are opposed to this system not threatening to leave and not being told to leave but that nuance seems to be lost. If you threaten to leave someone will tell you go already because your words beyond that are mere static. If you are sticking around then no-one is telling you to leave. Why is that so hard to understand. It's not like staff haven't been doing the same thing for years already.

*RING*
*RING*
Hello?
Yeah...
Hey POT!! Its KETTLE for you...

 

[intricatic]

No, I did not misunderstand you. And your last explanation is not equivalent to your initial charge.

Yes, it is equivalent. The ideology has changed, thus we no longer have a place here.

 

[Beastt]

You've gotta be kidding me!

You don't want me citing examples. And I won't because that is not the purpose of this thread, nor should we begin pointing fingers at any individuals. But the guilt is there and I think it would be to the benefit of those voicing objections like yours to refrain from challenging anyone to produce the evidence of that guilt.

Nice to see you toe to toe. Perhaps we can start fresh.

 

[Blank123]

Perhaps you should consider re-reading Erwin's post. As I read it, there was no "caving". Erwin took everything upon himself and made a decision in pursuit of his vision; not the vision of those you suggest forced him to cave.

i saw with my own eyes what erwin said was his vision for this site just four or five years ago. it was described nothing remotely similar to this.

i suppose its just easier to give into the most vocal members on the board than to maintain a consistent state in running things here though.

Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. - James 4:4 (random verse )

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

You need to keep in mind, staff didn't create the system, we were stuck with it. I know I was one of the staffers trying to get things fixed - and the execs will confirm I was a thorn in their side trying to improve the broken and uneffective system we had.

I don't know what you did but I tried to change things as well. I got shouted down.

With that said, I don't think the system that Erwin is recommending is the answer either.

It isn't. And nothing will be. The new system already has problems due to the size of the site. Those will have to be rectified. On the whole it will be less broken than the old system. No system will fix all of the problems at CF but this system, while immediately broken, will cause less problems than the old system once the dust settles. The community can come together and deal with the problems in the system. Running a site on almost the exact same ideals for the past few months has given me a lot of thought on the system. The first thing that has to be realized is that you can't please everyone all the time. Any system will create its own conflicts. With this system the conflicts will be out in the open and able to be dealt with at the very least. It's nowhere near perfect but it's much better than the broken system currently in place that was patched with more brokenness time and time again.

 

[ProdicalChristian]

Christ didn't come to allow people to remain comfortable in their sinful lives. If you think He came with the intent of those who followed Him learning to tolerate those who oppose Him, you know very little of His purpose.




You have chosen to lose your salvation at this point. It doesn't mean we should sit back and let others be led down the same path by those who have chosen to not accept to inerrancy of the Word of God.

My concept is this. If you keep sinning and not feeling guilty, not remorsing that you are not willing to repent and change your ways, it is a "sign" that you may not be saved. That we should "not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." (Ephesians 4:30). You are saved when the Holy Spirit convicting YOU to repent and help you change your ways. If you didn't feel the conviction and didn't have the motivation to change from "within", then you will know that you are not saved. Repent is NOT an addition to salvation but PART of salvation along with Grace. This is a CONTINUIOUS sanctification process of repenting throughout your Christian life.

CF and Churches can't control sinners but God can.

 

[Lisa0315]

Well, one of the key points of Erwin's original post was FORGIVENESS. So, let's leave the past in the past, and give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Clean Slates for everyone! Now, be the Christian you have always wanted to be. Be the Humanist you have always wanted to be. Be the American, Moralist, Whateverist you always wanted to be, STARTING NOW!

Lisa

 

[ProdicalChristian]

i saw with my own eyes what erwin said was his vision for this site just four or five years ago. it was described nothing remotely similar to this.

i suppose its just easier to give into the most vocal members on the board than to maintain a consistent state in running things here though.

Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. - James 4:4 (random verse )

Depends how (biblically) means making friends. A Christian life in this world should be different from the world, being in the world but not of the world.

 

[Brimshack]

Yes, it is equivalent. The ideology has changed, thus we no longer have a place here.

A decision made by you. Discrimination is a decision made by someone for you.

You are quite capable of understanding the difference, and I won't be wasting any more time on this point. I can understand the reasonableness of leaving, but to pretend this is discrimination by Erwin or CF is willful deception.

 

[ProdicalChristian]

Well, one of the key points of Erwin's original post was FORGIVENESS. So, let's leave the past in the past, and give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Clean Slates for everyone! Now, be the Christian you have always wanted to be. Be the Humanist you have always wanted to be. Be the American, Moralist, Whateverist you always wanted to be, STARTING NOW!

Lisa

I agree which is why I am welcoming this change.

Forgiveness is REALLY hard to do in this forum especially with those who doctrinally different. If its hard to forgive, then it is hard to love another because LOVE forgives. Love hopes all things (1 Corinth 13). Love refuses to take human failure as final. With Christ in me, my human failures are never final. Love never keeps a record of wrongs. Love forgives and love is unable to think about them anymore. Forget the past and move on. Focus on the future as I focus on Christ at the same time. Romans 4:8 (also Psalms 32:2) "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him". In 1 Corinthians 13:5 says "Love does not act unbecomingly"; which means a Christian should demonstrate godly love and have real Christian credibility.

 

[ProdicalChristian]

A decision made by you. Discrimination is a decision made by someone for you.

You are quite capable of understanding the difference, and I won't be wasting any more time on this point. I can understand the reasonableness of leaving, but to pretend this is discrimination by Erwin or CF is willful deception.

Discrimination is a problem faced by many Christians from other Christians and we are reminded of James 2:1-4, 9