A matter of choice....

[Avonia]

They believe homosexuals truly need to repent and turn from actively engaging in homosexual acts.

Defining the expression of sexuality by only the physical misses most of sexuality.

Sexual potential is created because of distance between poles. For heterosexuals, the most contrast usually happens between a man and a woman. For homosexuals, the most contrast usually happens between a man and a man or a woman and a woman. However, that's not the end of the story. For many people born in the last few decades - especially women - sexuality can express along a spectrum. Sexual potential exists with both men and women, but tends to express more with one than the other. And then their are bisexuals - those who have two poles - more or less equal. They can decide whether to be with a man or a woman and be in a healthy relationship with either.

Because of the continuous creative potential between people, sexuality is a continuous experience. Some of the most powerful sexual exchanges happen energetically - with no physical contact. Because I notice energy in a different way than some people, I am able to see that shift in almost everyone. So, when I watch a man walk into church, I can tell who he is most attracted to - who he naturally has creative potential with - by simply observing his energy shift. Same is true with women, although their energetic shifts aren't nearly as frequent or as quick. You know this, because you can feel your body shift when you are around whatever gender you are attracted to.

This is why affairs are often the most intense before physical contact - because energy builds up quickly between sexual poles, but expresses slowly and nearly continuously. Many of the most powerful sexual experiences don't involve physical contact.

God created us as sexual creatures. We are that way 24/7. We've mistaken sexuality for physical sexual acts. And tend to block or deny our affinities. This is what gets people into trouble. Pastors who repress their energies. Priests who repress their energies.

When we tell homosexuals to not express their sexuality physically, it does not make any difference in terms of the expression of their sexuality with other people. It does make it highly likely they will be out of balance and dysfunctional. And more likely that they will make bad decisions. Because they are more likely to go unconsciousness when it comes to their sexuality.

To answer your question overtly - since you have now asked multiples times - Christians become better Christians when they help homosexuals become better homosexuals. The predominate attitude among Christians about homosexuality seems antithetical to the beautiful principles of love, balance, and reverence for the body I read in the Bible.

But, as I said, it was a path of experience with those who are homosexual that led me to this insight. And I understand that others take different paths.


.

 

[Joe67]

Kira,

You are not alone on the born again issue. Born again is not definable, but can be experienced. Born again does act in new ways that are contrary to the desires of the flesh and the mind as witnessed by the apostle Paul.

Eph 2:1-6
:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: KJV

And witnessed by our Lord Jesus, which is the greatest witness.
John 3:3-7
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. KJV

God does work in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. Philippians 2:13.
Male with male and female with female is not pleasing to God.

Joe

 

[StormyOne]

Perhaps Joe, but even Paul whom you referenced admitted that the good that he should do, he didn't do, that he did evil instead and this was AFTER his "born again" (please someone define it) experience.... Toddlers at some point act differently than babies in significant areas, are they born again? Adults act differently than they did when children, are they born again? Paul even said, when he was a child he spoke as a child and thought as a child but now being a man he had put away childish things..... born again?

If after being born again people have the possibility of engaging in the same behavior prior to being "born again" then what does that say about the concept?

 

[AzA]

The core of all of this is whether or not the Bible says its OK for someone who is born again to live in a homosexual lifestyle and engage in homosexual activity.

I found that although a few people believe this to be the core question, many others locate the core elsewhere. Just like how some Adventists think that knowing how to plan worship sessions is all about finding out which instruments Asaph and David used in Psalms.

But for those that do ask the question "Can you be gay and Christian," there are a range of opinions including:

1. Yes -- if you marry a different-sex partner.
2. Yes -- if you marry a same-sex partner
3. Yes -- if you're celibate.
4. No -- you can change: keep the religion, ditch the sexuality.
5. No -- you can change: keep the sexuality, ditch the religion.
6. That's a good question -- and I've got an answer that I'm comfortable with
7. That's a good question -- and I'm having a really hard time with this
8. That's not a good question at all; it abridges the issues and turns people into objects and texts into God.
9. Yes, you can, but I can't; I'm already married.
10. Maybe my spouse can but he/she'll have to divorce me first.
11. My parent(s) is/are.
12. I don't know.

For myself, I don't find "for the Bible tells me so" to be an independently viable justification for the things we are, do, seek, or create -- not least because it masks all the work involved in approaching a text, divining a meaning, and reapplying that meaning out of its context. That doesn't make the Bible irrelevant; nor does it mean I can't reason with or using it. I just think that "What does the Bible say" is a weak starting point for planning a day or a life.(see #8)

That distinguishes me from many Adventists and evangelicals -- at least in theory. Practice is another issue; rarely do even Adventists pin their entire lives on "what the Bible says."

 

[Kira Light]

I am starting to see a theme of downplaying the Bible here. I didn't expect that that is where you were all coming from, but most of you seem to be going that route.

It will make it harder and harder to find anything to discuss if we lack any common ground. If we are going to say the Bible is not the absolute authority, then there is nothing left to be argued.

I don't have any reasons for not doing whatever it is you please outside of the Bible.

Basically, we can't have a discussion about how Christians should address homosexuality if we don't agree on where Christian values and principles come from. If the Bible is not authoritative, then it is subjective and meaningless. Make it say whatever you want. Somewhat disappointing =/

 

[Kira Light]

Defining the expression of sexuality by only the physical misses most of sexuality.

Sexual potential is created because of distance between poles. For heterosexuals, the most contrast usually happens between a man and a woman. For homosexuals, the most contrast usually happens between a man and a man or a woman and a woman. However, that's not the end of the story. For many people born in the last few decades - especially women - sexuality can express along a spectrum. Sexual potential exists with both men and women, but tends to express more with one than the other. And then their are bisexuals - those who have two poles - more or less equal. They can decide whether to be with a man or a woman and be in a healthy relationship with either.

Because of the continuous creative potential between people, sexuality is a continuous experience. Some of the most powerful sexual exchanges happen energetically - with no physical contact. Because I notice energy in a different way than some people, I am able to see that shift in almost everyone. So, when I watch a man walk into church, I can tell who he is most attracted to - who he naturally has creative potential with - by simply observing his energy shift. Same is true with women, although their energetic shifts aren't nearly as frequent or as quick. You know this, because you can feel your body shift when you are around whatever gender you are attracted to.

This is why affairs are often the most intense before physical contact - because energy builds up quickly between sexual poles, but expresses slowly and nearly continuously. Many of the most powerful sexual experiences don't involve physical contact.

God created us as sexual creatures. We are that way 24/7. We've mistaken sexuality for physical sexual acts. And tend to block or deny our affinities. This is what gets people into trouble. Pastors who repress their energies. Priests who repress their energies.

When we tell homosexuals to not express their sexuality physically, it does not make any difference in terms of the expression of their sexuality with other people. It does make it highly likely they will be out of balance and dysfunctional. And more likely that they will make bad decisions. Because they are more likely to go unconsciousness when it comes to their sexuality.

To answer your question overtly - since you have now asked multiples times - Christians become better Christians when they help homosexuals become better homosexuals. The predominate attitude among Christians about homosexuality seems antithetical to the beautiful principles of love, balance, and reverence for the body I read in the Bible.

But, as I said, it was a path of experience with those who are homosexual that led me to this insight. And I understand that others take different paths.


.

I'm sorry but this is really out there to me. God made all of us with these sexual desires and we have to act on them or we become unbalanced and dysfunctional? Wow.

Was Jesus completely unbalanced and dysfunctional? Was he not a sexual being? Honestly, I don't even know where to take this.

 

[Kira Light]

Perhaps Joe, but even Paul whom you referenced admitted that the good that he should do, he didn't do, that he did evil instead and this was AFTER his "born again" (please someone define it) experience.... Toddlers at some point act differently than babies in significant areas, are they born again? Adults act differently than they did when children, are they born again? Paul even said, when he was a child he spoke as a child and thought as a child but now being a man he had put away childish things..... born again?

If after being born again people have the possibility of engaging in the same behavior prior to being "born again" then what does that say about the concept?

I don't think I'm really qualified to define this either. What it means to me is you experience a transition in your life in which the Holy Spirit comes to live in you and change you. This doesn't mean you are sinless from then on, but the evidence that you are born again is that you begin to thirst for God and hate evil.

 

[Kira Light]

Kira,

You are not alone on the born again issue. Born again is not definable, but can be experienced. Born again does act in new ways that are contrary to the desires of the flesh and the mind as witnessed by the apostle Paul.

Eph 2:1-6
:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: KJV

And witnessed by our Lord Jesus, which is the greatest witness.
John 3:3-7
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. KJV

God does work in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. Philippians 2:13.
Male with male and female with female is not pleasing to God.

Joe

Thanks Joe! Feel free to jump in here anytime. Could use the back up!

 

[Avonia]

I'm sorry but this is really out there to me.

That's fair.

God made all of us with these sexual desires and we have to act on them or we become unbalanced and dysfunctional?

Not exactly. But ideally, sexual energies move with us and express in many ways. Many of these ways are not physical. Sometimes it's as simple as noticing a strong affinity - and not attaching to it or blocking it. Letting it move through us.

Was he not a sexual being?

I imagine he was - I don't know how he could not be. But that's not a comfortable idea for many people.

 

[StormyOne]

I am starting to see a theme of downplaying the Bible here. I didn't expect that that is where you were all coming from, but most of you seem to be going that route.

It will make it harder and harder to find anything to discuss if we lack any common ground. If we are going to say the Bible is not the absolute authority, then there is nothing left to be argued.

I don't have any reasons for not doing whatever it is you please outside of the Bible.

Basically, we can't have a discussion about how Christians should address homosexuality if we don't agree on where Christian values and principles come from. If the Bible is not authoritative, then it is subjective and meaningless. Make it say whatever you want. Somewhat disappointing =/

well this is the progressive section and as such you might find that we hold a wide variety of views.... Speaking for myself, I question how one can make the bible the absolute authority of a life lived here and now given that it was written thousands of years ago, by who knows whom, and to a different cultural setting.... having said that, it is my belief that the bible is the compiled words of inspired men who wrote what they understood about God at that time.... So for me, it is not the inspired, infallible word of God.... that's my view, and I understand that not all who are posters in this section share my view.... and thats cool.....

Having said that, we can still discuss appropriate christian behavior because christianity has a value system that can be examined... Sorry you are disappointed, though I am not sure what you expected....

 

[StormyOne]

I don't think I'm really qualified to define this either. What it means to me is you experience a transition in your life in which the Holy Spirit comes to live in you and change you. This doesn't mean you are sinless from then on, but the evidence that you are born again is that you begin to thirst for God and hate evil.

How does the Holy Spirit live in you? How would you know that has possessed you? What does thirsting for God and hating evil mean? Is it possible for someone to hate evil and not be possessed by the Holy Spirit? Since human life is about constant transition, how does the variable of the Holy Spirit factor into humans who are changing anyway?

 

[StormyOne]

I'm sorry but this is really out there to me. God made all of us with these sexual desires and we have to act on them or we become unbalanced and dysfunctional? Wow.

Was Jesus completely unbalanced and dysfunctional? Was he not a sexual being? Honestly, I don't even know where to take this.

How could someone write that Jesus was tempted as we are and yet did not sin, if he was not a sexual being? Unless you are saying he really wasn't like us at all..... which is also something we can explore if you wish....

 

[Avonia]

I am starting to see a theme of downplaying the Bible here.

Not from me. And not from some others here I know well. But I do think we dishonor the Bible when we insist on using it to decide whether or not to "do something" when we have all the information we need - and much more suited to the task - all arond us.

If we are going to say the Bible is not the absolute authority

God is the Absolute. It seems important to me to not displace God with the Bible.

Somewhat disappointing.

You are contributing to the conversation, and receiving in return. What more do you desire from the conversation?

 

[Kira Light]

That's fair.



Not exactly. But ideally, sexual energies move with us and express in many ways. Many of these ways are not physical. Sometimes it's as simple as noticing a strong affinity - and not attaching to it or blocking it. Letting it move through us.



I imagine he was - I don't know how he could not be. But that's not a comfortable idea for many people.

I suppose I should press further about what it means to you that Jesus was a sexual being. You kind of skipped my question about whether he was dysfunctional and unbalanced because of his refraining from acting out sexually (although I suppose you could say he did act sexually under your definition of sexual energies and the noticing of strong affinities etc...)

Jesus taught to even lust is to commit adultery, and if you break 1 commandment you break them all. Yet we are taught he was sinless and perfect. I suppose this might be another thing that the fallible book we call the Bible got wrong... Very hard to debate if we can't rely on it.

 

[Kira Light]

Not from me. And not from some others here I know well. But I do think we dishonor the Bible when we insist on using it to decide whether or not to "do something" when we have all the information we need - and much more suited to the task - all arond us.



God is the Absolute. It seems important to me to not displace God with the Bible.



You are contributing to the conversation, and receiving in return. What more do you desire from the conversation?

So does God disagree with the Bible? How do we get an answer from Him on these issues if we don't use the Bible?

If you have gotten such an answer in the past, has it been in disagreement with the Bible. This would seem odd.

I am only saying it is disappointing that there is really no point in continuing the debate because we don't all share the same beliefs about the Bible's authority.

 

[Kira Light]

How could someone write that Jesus was tempted as we are and yet did not sin, if he was not a sexual being? Unless you are saying he really wasn't like us at all..... which is also something we can explore if you wish....

Said this in the other post as well, but do you believe Jesus lusted after women (or men I suppose...)

I read about Jesus being tempted, but not sexually. Maybe that part of the Bible was fallible though and we cant trust it..

 

[Kira Light]

How does the Holy Spirit live in you? How would you know that has possessed you? What does thirsting for God and hating evil mean? Is it possible for someone to hate evil and not be possessed by the Holy Spirit? Since human life is about constant transition, how does the variable of the Holy Spirit factor into humans who are changing anyway?

Seems many people can tell you the story of when they got born again and accepted Jesus. I don't have such a story so I can't say there was a dramatic change here or there. I believe I am turning from evil and pursuing more of what I believe to be good (based on the Bible) and I find that to be evidence that I have been born again. I don't know that I can answer you more specifically, I am not some master of this subject.

 

[Avonia]

I suppose I should press further about what it means to you that Jesus was a sexual being.

It means he had human qualities.

You kind of skipped my question about whether he was dysfunctional and unbalanced because of his refraining from acting out sexually

Sexual energies are always in motion. A person may or may not choose to express them through a specific physical action.

Jesus taught to even lust is to commit adultery

Lust is about dehumanizing someone - not being attracted to them. If it were the latter, all of us would be lusting every day. Or be in denial about it.

I suppose this might be another thing that the fallible book we call the Bible got wrong... Very hard to debate if we can't rely on it.

It's wholly and continuously reliable. Using a level to pound a nail - and failing - doesn't mean the level was unreliable. It means we misunderstood the nature of the level.

 

[Avonia]

How do we get an answer from Him on these issues if we don't use the Bible?

By looking at everything in creation - including the Bible. It all has His signature. And then using the gift of discernment He created us with. And refining the process over time by being both teachable/impressionable and observant of the consequences of our actions.

Or - instead of attempting to know a thing - you can just decide about it.

 

[StormyOne]

Seems many people can tell you the story of when they got born again and accepted Jesus. I don't have such a story so I can't say there was a dramatic change here or there. I believe I am turning from evil and pursuing more of what I believe to be good (based on the Bible) and I find that to be evidence that I have been born again. I don't know that I can answer you more specifically, I am not some master of this subject.

fair enough.... though you have used some terms that are in need of defining i.e. what is good, what is evil, and how would you know? Is it possible that some have thought they were doing good, but in fact it was evil... just some questions that popped up, don't feel pressed to answer them....