A matter of choice....

[Kira Light]

Some people are born with the sex organs of a man and a woman. Would you also deny them physical intimacy?

Also? I didn't realize I was suddenly in the business of denying anyone physical intimacy

This question really leads me to wonder what the importance of physical intimacy should be in our lives. How much time should a Christian spend pursuing sexual pleasure? Didn't Paul write that it would be better to not marry so we could serve God even more?

I have a difficult time holding any of the pleasures of this life and this world up too high.

Submit fully to God and see where He takes you.

And to directly answer your question... I would just send that person to God to find their answer. I would just be guessing at what is right for that person to do. In the end, I'm thankful it's not up to me

 

[Avonia]

I would just send that person to God to find their answer.

This seems a sage approach for homosexual as well.

 

[StormyOne]

I don't attend a church right now and I really have no idea what the discrimination is like there. I don't see how you can be actively engaging in homosexual acts as a born again Christian. I am open to being proven wrong here, but it seems to equate to the heterosexual sins of lust and adultery at the very least. Obviously, we are not saved by NOT sinning, so maybe its all just dandy, I don't really know. I firmly believe in surrendering totally to Jesus and letting him figure it out.

Interesting..... so then its seems you are saying that you will leave it up to the person or persons and their relationship with God? If that's the case, where is the problem?

 

[StormyOne]

Also? I didn't realize I was suddenly in the business of denying anyone physical intimacy

This question really leads me to wonder what the importance of physical intimacy should be in our lives. How much time should a Christian spend pursuing sexual pleasure? Didn't Paul write that it would be better to not marry so we could serve God even more?

I have a difficult time holding any of the pleasures of this life and this world up too high.

Submit fully to God and see where He takes you.

And to directly answer your question... I would just send that person to God to find their answer. I would just be guessing at what is right for that person to do. In the end, I'm thankful it's not up to me

Paul believed Christ would return in his lifetime..... over a thousand years ago..... Married folks pursue sexual pleasure all the time... I think its possible to do both, that is, enjoy sexual pleasure and serve God... however serving God must be defined....

So if we allow the person to find their answers from God, why do we get bent out of shape when this topic is discussed?

 

[AzA]

Man, Aza you are way way into this gay agenda. I'm afraid we'll never agree on anything

The "gay agenda" phrase just tickles me every time. Should I also wait for The Liberal Agenda and The Feminist Deception? How about the Scholarly Conspiracy? I love your sense of humor.

Are you an Adventist or a former one?

I'm an Adventist.

I understand Christians being accepting and loving, but what you are talking about goes way beyond.

I'd love you to reread my last post and explain why you think so.

Even with all the drawbacks to homosexual relationships you list, it is still relatively awesome in the US for a gay person.

On what basis do you say so? You already said you don't (think you) know any gay people, so how do you know how awesome it is for gay people in this country? What are your sources? Are you relying on Hollywood for your representations? Or... the local Evangelical pulpit? Surely not.

Why isn't there more focus from your side on getting countries in the middle east to stop killing homosexuals? It seems theres a lot more work to do around the world before you focus back in on us.

Interesting (and with a giggle about "your side" ).

There are a lot of people, some homosexual and some not, who work on international human rights and equity. Yet "the world" still does include the US, so issues in the US remain on the table until they are addressed. That's the case when we're talking about poverty, water resources, agriculture, education, treatment of women, children, and the elderly, and other issues like weapons proliferation and sustainable land management. America isn't left to spoil on any other issue -- and it isn't left behind because the rest of the world recognizes that until America participates in progressive change, global effects are minimal. Like it or not, the country has tipping influence. So if it isn't left behind on any other issue, it's not clear why it should be left behind on human issues?

One recent case you may not have heard about: In October, four US Representatives asked the US State Department what it was doing about a private bill proposed in Uganda. The bill was creatively titled "The Anti-Homosexuality Bill of 2009"; amongst its proposals were imprisonment and death penalties for homosexuals and people who knew about their sexuality but did not turn them in. It also proposed to ban all literature and advocacy thought to "promote" homosexuality, and overrule international human rights treaties. Yes, I've read the bill in full myself. It's online.

Between October and December, church groups and civil rights groups in America and across Europe issued statements against that law. After some prompting from a number of Adventist members, the Seventh-day Adventist GC also disclaimed the law -- twice... here's the most recent statement. All of the people I know who sent letters on this issue are also engaged on other issues, including poverty and education. And the Adventist church itself advocates in all sorts of areas. ADRA, for instance, is busy helping people in Haiti right now. These activities aren't mutually exclusive.

For me, I really don't expect to see a perfect world out there, so I'm not disappointed when I don't see one. There are 1 billion people without enough food or clean drinking water. 30,000 children starve to death each day. MAYBE when we get this stuff all fixed up I will worry about medical or insurance related inequalities for gays in the US.

That sounds remarkably cavalier, Kira -- not least because you've abridged and dismissed even the few issues I mentioned. If this is your way of saying "I don't know and I don't care," I can acknowledge that. But that would surprise me given how you've represented yourself in this forum so far. From you, I'd much more expect "I don't know yet, but I'm willing to listen."

 

[Kira Light]

Interesting..... so then its seems you are saying that you will leave it up to the person or persons and their relationship with God? If that's the case, where is the problem?

My biggest problem would be with Christians spending their time fighting for equality for homosexuals in the US. I can't seem to figure out how that is a good use of our time. On the other side, fighting against gay marriage and the like would also be a poor use of ones time. We shouldn't expect morality from our government. We should expect ludicrous levels of corruption and evil and the eventual demise of everything on earth.

We are rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic here.

 

[Kira Light]

You are certainly a bit hard to read yourself Aza. I haven't looked back at all of your 1000 posts so maybe its just cause I'm new around here.

I know the "gay agenda" is like a curse word to those who support more rights for homosexuals. I am sorry if it offends you. You do admit you have some gay rights agenda though don't you? I'm sorry, but I don't know what else to call it. It seems like this will all devolve into semantics soon if we have to quarrel over every word.

I say gay people in the US have it pretty good because they get to do whatever they want behind closed doors and we leave them alone. They can even have parades or civil unions some places. Probably nationwide marriage or unions very soon. Is this really like some gay concentration camp? I don't know any gay people so maybe. Although knowing 1 or 2 gay people hardly makes you an expert. I would even say knowing hundreds of gay people would do you little good in grasping the true picture nationwide. You can dismiss everything I say just because I don't have a gay friend though, if you like.

I may have to sift through this a bit more and respond further in a bit

 

[AzA]

You are certainly a bit hard to read yourself Aza. I haven't looked back at all of your 1000 posts so maybe its just cause I'm new around here.

Lol, Kira -- no one asked you to read 1000 posts. Just the one post you read, quoted, and described as "way beyond" loving and accepting. I was asking why you thought so.

I know the "gay agenda" is like a curse word to those who support more rights for homosexuals. I am sorry if it offends you. You do admit you have some gay rights agenda though don't you? I'm sorry, but I don't know what else to call it. It seems like this will all devolve into semantics soon if we have to quarrel over every word.

No worries -- I'm not offended, and far from interested in quarrels.

I say gay people in the US have it pretty good because they get to do whatever they want behind closed doors and we leave them alone. They can even have parades or civil unions some places. Probably nationwide marriage or unions very soon. Is this really like some gay concentration camp?

That's not my claim at all... though it's interesting that concentration camps are now the new baseline for equitable treatment of minorities. "It's not Auschwitz, so stop whining!" Really?

Behind closed doors almost all of us do "whatever we want" (except plot terrrorism, view child pornography, and any other thing that society says we can't do behind closed doors). But a healthy life isn't lived behind closed doors or in soft or hard isolation. If you're concerned about people's well-being, then it's helpful to consider ways in which the status quo undermines that well-being.

I may have to sift through this a bit more and respond further in a bit

I'd love it if we could keep talking.

 

[Avonia]

I say gay people in the US have it pretty good because they get to do whatever they want behind closed doors and we leave them alone.

Is the quality of your life primarily defined by what you do behind closed doors?

 

[StormyOne]

My biggest problem would be with Christians spending their time fighting for equality for homosexuals in the US. I can't seem to figure out how that is a good use of our time. On the other side, fighting against gay marriage and the like would also be a poor use of ones time. We shouldn't expect morality from our government. We should expect ludicrous levels of corruption and evil and the eventual demise of everything on earth.

We are rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic here.

I think fighting for equality for all is worthwhile..... so then until the eventual demise of everything on earth people should do what?

 

[Kira Light]

I think fighting for equality for all is worthwhile..... so then until the eventual demise of everything on earth people should do what?

Did the disciples fight for equality in the Roman empire? Would that have been a good use of their time? Instead of going out and preaching the word they could have had parades and demonstrated for gay rights. Why didn't they spend any of their time fighting for gay marriage?

If gay rights and gay marriage should be SO important for Christians today, why does the New Testament say nothing about it? Is this really something God wants Christians to spend their time fighting for?

 

[Kira Light]

Lol, Kira -- no one asked you to read 1000 posts. Just the one post you read, quoted, and described as "way beyond" loving and accepting. I was asking why you thought so.

No worries -- I'm not offended, and far from interested in quarrels.

That's not my claim at all... though it's interesting that concentration camps are now the new baseline for equitable treatment of minorities. "It's not Auschwitz, so stop whining!" Really?

Behind closed doors almost all of us do "whatever we want" (except plot terrrorism, view child pornography, and any other thing that society says we can't do behind closed doors). But a healthy life isn't lived behind closed doors or in soft or hard isolation. If you're concerned about people's well-being, then it's helpful to consider ways in which the status quo undermines that well-being.

I'd love it if we could keep talking.

Addressing the plight of homosexuals in America...

I can't help but look to the Bible and see how Christians were persecuted.

Paul writes:

"beaten times without number, often in danger of death. Five times I received from the Jews 39 lashes. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and day I have spent in the deep. I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among the false brethren; I have been in labour and hardship, through many sleepless nights, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure"(2Cor.11:24-27)

Paul describes these hardships as momentary and light. This is real persecution and he faced it without ever complaining. He also faced it standing up for God and spreading the Word.

It just seems to me that Christians should try to be more like Paul and pursue what truly matters. The laws and institutions put for by some temporary government here on earth have absolutely zero relevance.

 

[BigRedBus]

I read AzA’s Post #34 as being against injustice rather than being for any particular minority. Exposing and fighting injustice is a very practical way to express one’s Christianity.

Kira Light, can you go back to Post #34, and try something. Pretend that the couples are heterosexual, and the issue that causes the legal and social impact for the different couples is that one of them is a wheelchair user. That means that in one of the cases, the couple is disadvantaged regarding immigration status. In another instance, social taboos still frown on the union of a wheelchair user and a non-wheelchair user. And so on…

What’s your reaction now? Are you horrified that a civilised country like the USA could condone or allow discrimination in such an arbitrary fashion? After all, the wheelchair user doesn’t get to choose whether s/he is that way. Why shouldn’t their outcomes be the same as everyone else’s?

Or would you think that it’s OK really. After all, things have got so much better for wheelchair users over the last 100 years, and it’s much better for them in the USA than in some other countries. So the fact that it’s an improvement means nothing further need be done for them, and anyway haven’t we Christians got better things to do with our time than to help fight their corner?

What I’m getting towards is that you stop very little discrimination by being selective which minorities you will support and which ones you will oppose. The battle against such injustice is actually an all or nothing one. It’s an overall attitude of mind you develop, not something you can switch on and off as you please.

So do you think people choose to be gay? It doesn’t appear they do, from what I read here. If they don’t choose, we Christians have to put down our copy of Leviticus, stop condemning and start using some humanity and commonsense.

AzA, Avonia and StormyOne have asked you some very relevant questions since my last post. I’d like to see how you answer them.

 

[Kira Light]

I read AzA’s Post #34 as being against injustice rather than being for any particular minority. Exposing and fighting injustice is a very practical way to express one’s Christianity.

Kira Light, can you go back to Post #34, and try something. Pretend that the couples are heterosexual, and the issue that causes the legal and social impact for the different couples is that one of them is a wheelchair user. That means that in one of the cases, the couple is disadvantaged regarding immigration status. In another instance, social taboos still frown on the union of a wheelchair user and a non-wheelchair user. And so on…

What’s your reaction now? Are you horrified that a civilised country like the USA could condone or allow discrimination in such an arbitrary fashion? After all, the wheelchair user doesn’t get to choose whether s/he is that way. Why shouldn’t their outcomes be the same as everyone else’s?

Or would you think that it’s OK really. After all, things have got so much better for wheelchair users over the last 100 years, and it’s much better for them in the USA than in some other countries. So the fact that it’s an improvement means nothing further need be done for them, and anyway haven’t we Christians got better things to do with our time than to help fight their corner?

What I’m getting towards is that you stop very little discrimination by being selective which minorities you will support and which ones you will oppose. The battle against such injustice is actually an all or nothing one. It’s an overall attitude of mind you develop, not something you can switch on and off as you please.

So do you think people choose to be gay? It doesn’t appear they do, from what I read here. If they don’t choose, we Christians have to put down our copy of Leviticus, stop condemning and start using some humanity and commonsense.

AzA, Avonia and StormyOne have asked you some very relevant questions since my last post. I’d like to see how you answer them.

I would like to try to address all these questions, but I admit some get lost in the many quotes. Any big ones I'm missing I hope people will ask again or specifically point back to.

It is interesting that you paint me as touting my copy of Leviticus and condemning without any humanity or common sense. Perhaps you would do well to re-read some of my posts as well.

In your hypothetical situation about the same discrimination happening to heterosexuals, it just leads me back to what Paul and the early Christians went through. They were persecuted endlessly and they didn't seem to cry a river of tears about how unfair the government was. They realized how temporary these earthly kingdoms are and they focused on what was truly important.

The US government is very near broke already, and there isn't a politician there that isn't totally corrupt. This thing is falling apart rapidly and you really think we need to expend time and energy trying to convince it to give more rights to homosexuals? Is this what Christians should spend their time doing?

 

[Avonia]

If gay rights and gay marriage should be SO important for Christians today, why does the New Testament say nothing about it?

Jesus told us to love each other.

The suicide rate for our gay kids is high. Part of this is because we have told them there is not a way forward to be who they were born to be. That how they feel is wrong. That what they are drawn to is wrong. This makes it hard to step toward a future.

Some of this accountability is on the shoulders of the Christian community. I don't know how there could be a more important cause than life or death.



.

 

[AzA]

Kira, your objections on this page seem to be about limited time and not evangelizing. What is the good news to your mind? Is it only shared via satellite or leaflets?

I gave some examples of Christian service in post 45. Service to God and service to His creation are not mutually exclusive options. Several passages including Matthew 25 suggest they are one. I have personally learned some amazing things about God while connecting with people; being open to Him opens me up to them. I've heard others say this is also part of their experience.

I don't take it for granted that there is nothing that can be done about the state of our world or our human relationships. And even if we were past tipping point on any scale that would not give me a free pass to go running around the city shooting up or thieving.

It can be so easily to get sucked into cynicism and disillusionment -- the kind that says "Screw it all and why bother." I know it's easy because I catch myself in that mood sometimes. But BRB has read me right -- I care about people. It doesn't matter to me if they are Western, Eastern, subSaharan, or Pacific. But I care about people, and I choose not to give up on our species. Part of not giving up is seeing what we can do better and not settling until we get there.

 

[Kira Light]

Jesus told us to love each other.

The suicide rate for our gay kids is high. Part of this is because we have told them there is not a way forward to be who they were born to be. That how they feel is wrong. That what they are drawn to is wrong. This makes it hard to step toward a future.

Some of this accountability is on the shoulders of the Christian community. I don't know how there could be a more important cause than life or death.



.

I don't see how loving each other means accepting any and all sins and lifestyles just to not offend or make someone feel depressed.

I think there is a way more important cause than life or death.

Should the gay kid in your example really be told that its all OK and he should go out there into the world and do whatever he wants? If the whole country agreed and we did this I'm sure the kid would go out there and have a great time, but to what end? Is pleasure seeking for the flesh really what Christians are here to promote?

 

[Kira Light]

Kira, your objections on this page seem to be about limited time and not evangelizing. What is the good news to your mind? Is it only shared via satellite or leaflets?

I gave some examples of Christian service in post 45. Service to God and service to His creation are not mutually exclusive options. Several passages including Matthew 25 suggest they are one. I have personally learned some amazing things about God while connecting with people; being open to Him opens me up to them. I've heard others say this is also part of their experience.

I don't take it for granted that there is nothing that can be done about the state of our world or our human relationships. And even if we were past tipping point on any scale that would not give me a free pass to go running around the city shooting up or thieving.

It can be so easily to get sucked into cynicism and disillusionment -- the kind that says "Screw it all and why bother." I know it's easy because I catch myself in that mood sometimes. But BRB has read me right -- I care about people. It doesn't matter to me if they are Western, Eastern, subSaharan, or Pacific. But I care about people, and I choose not to give up on our species. Part of not giving up is seeing what we can do better and not settling until we get there.

I see what you're saying. It is easy for me to think why bother with most of this world. What I'm really trying to say is Christians should have a very different perspective on the world, and I can't really see how homosexual rights in a temporary earthly kingdom would fit on our radar.

We aren't really addressing a core issue here though. Can a born again Christian live a life in which they engage in homosexual activity?

 

[StormyOne]

I see what you're saying. It is easy for me to think why bother with most of this world. What I'm really trying to say is Christians should have a very different perspective on the world, and I can't really see how homosexual rights in a temporary earthly kingdom would fit on our radar.

We aren't really addressing a core issue here though. Can a born again Christian live a life in which they engage in homosexual activity?

Do born again christians lie, steal, commit adultery, covet.... yes they do... so then why the outrage when it comes to homosexuality? All have sinned, and will continue to do so until "changed" permanently. What then is the solution? Allow people to live their lives and allow God to work with them...

 

[Kira Light]

Do born again christians lie, steal, commit adultery, covet.... yes they do... so then why the outrage when it comes to homosexuality? All have sinned, and will continue to do so until "changed" permanently. What then is the solution? Allow people to live their lives and allow God to work with them...

Christianity does seem to take a position when it comes to these things you list. They take a side with regards to sex outside marriage and adultery. You would have them stop all of that? Your argument is people do it anyway so stop telling them its wrong. Should the church stop saying abortion is wrong, too? There have been 50 million of those so far and people are gonna do it anyway, so stop judging?

It almost seems like you are trying to trick homosexuals. You are saying don't judge them at all or say anything they are doing is wrong. Just let them find Jesus and then he'll break the news to them. Frankly, it might work, but it seems deceptive.