A matter of choice....

[AzA]

In this latest leg of my journey, I've learned that a lot of things can stand in the way of knowledge. Tradition often does. Sometimes consensus does. At other times, gut feeling, and sometimes logic. I haven't always found that my long-established ideas have fallen away smoothly from me.

(As an example, it took me a little while to acknowledge that my ideas about jewelry couldn't withstand investigation. No one outside or inside church challenged me. There was no obvious impetus to investigate and even less social encouragement to change. I had no investment in the subject except that I wanted to know that my position had basis. But something said to me, "AzA -- take another look at that." So I did. And was less surprised by my conclusion and more unnerved at the prospect of being out of step with my and my family's tradition. As you know Kira, we're not always trained to be out of step with our own traditions.)

A lot of people have found it necessary to reexamine various positions of their faith, whether those positions are rightly called doctrine or dogma. Many of us here have looked at things we were taught, including teachings about the Sabbath or our diet, about God Godself and the Incarnation, or what redemption is, and what it means to disciple another person. I'm not sure the search should be about intellectual debate, which is one reason I'm reluctant to go that route. But I have been sensitive to doctrines and teachings about gender and sexuality in part because I'm a woman in a tradition that has some demonstrated weaknesses in how it handles women, how it handles sexual minorities, and what it teaches about sexuality and sexual expression.

When I was ready to consider my church's teachings on gender and sexuality, I realized that they were networked into other aspects of church teaching including spiritual gifts and ecclesiology, the family and marriage, and the nature of man. I also realized that my convictions, whatever they were, would play out in my own life and how I dealt with other people. The application part raised the stakes for me. It's not like debating Daniel 11 and deciding who the King of the North is. These kinds of teachings affect people's lives in the present; they affect individuals' experiences in the church, and also affect our individual and collective witness. That's why I think they're important.

 

[AzA]

It wasn't too long ago that the Adventist church advertised and endorsed a change ministry run by Colin Cook. "Debacle" is not the right word, but runs close. A lot of people were damaged and abused in that situation, and I would say it was a colossal misdirection of our resources given that one of Adventism's three branches is wellness ministry. But that action was rooted in entrenched beliefs and position statements, just like the church's action today. It's worth re-viewing entrenched beliefs, even if it's uncomfortable. Maybe especially if it is.

There are a couple of groups within the Adventist community that work with LGBT or same-sex attracted people: SDA Kinship International (sdakinship.net) and GLADventist (God's Love Our Witness) (gladventist.org). Members of these groups don't always agree on the theology beneath their missions any more than Heartland Institute and the 1888 Study Committee do, but both groups host discussions and resources for people who want to investigate the question. They mirror the diversity of conviction in the denomination and the diversity in the rest of Christianity. If one wants to explore the various theological approaches to sexuality, there are libraries of books available from all angles including historical, sociological, interpretative, pastoral, and medical.

Love certainly doesn't mean "anything goes." At least, I've not experienced it that way, nor do I express it in that way. I find that love in my life tends towards a largeness that can be easy to resist because my tradition and culture rely on drawing some people out of the in-group. Love prompts me to open up anyway.

 

[StormyOne]

Christianity does seem to take a position when it comes to these things you list. They take a side with regards to sex outside marriage and adultery. You would have them stop all of that? Your argument is people do it anyway so stop telling them its wrong. Should the church stop saying abortion is wrong, too? There have been 50 million of those so far and people are gonna do it anyway, so stop judging?

It almost seems like you are trying to trick homosexuals. You are saying don't judge them at all or say anything they are doing is wrong. Just let them find Jesus and then he'll break the news to them. Frankly, it might work, but it seems deceptive.

My position is that there is inconsistency and hypocrisy when the church takes a side... should they? I suppose, in the sense that every club needs rules to determine who is or is not a member.... However church membership does not determine who or who is not God's child....

I would have no problem if folks stopped judging.... while you mentioned abortion I would say that is a different topic which would be best explored in a different thread.....

I say allow God to be God and to impress on each of us what is right or wrong..... it is no trick, but it does mean that church folks would have to find a different message.....

 

[Avonia]

I don't see how loving each other means accepting any and all sins and lifestyles just to not offend or make someone feel depressed.

A homosexual couple can have an aligned, healthy relationship - just like a heterosexual couple. Or they can have a dysfunctional, unhealthy relationship - just like a heterosexual couple.

We do violence to others when we suggest that they deny - or do not express - their core sexual orientation.

 

[Kira Light]

A homosexual couple can have an aligned, healthy relationship - just like a heterosexual couple. Or they can have a dysfunctional, unhealthy relationship - just like a heterosexual couple.

We do violence to others when we suggest that they deny - or do not express - their core sexual orientation.

I'm not sure what you mean by aligned. Haven't heard it used like this before. What constitutes a healthy and aligned homosexual relationship? Why should Christians spend their time trying to foster such relationships?

 

[Kira Light]

My position is that there is inconsistency and hypocrisy when the church takes a side... should they? I suppose, in the sense that every club needs rules to determine who is or is not a member.... However church membership does not determine who or who is not God's child....

I would have no problem if folks stopped judging.... while you mentioned abortion I would say that is a different topic which would be best explored in a different thread.....

I say allow God to be God and to impress on each of us what is right or wrong..... it is no trick, but it does mean that church folks would have to find a different message.....

So do we white out the verses in our Bibles that might offend or seem to cast judgment? If we welcome drunkards we better not let them see the parts of the Bible that condemn drunkenness, or they might get depressed and leave.

I would imagine it would be hard to come up with a sermon that is able to skip all of the parts of the Bible that deal with morality.

Would a preacher really be doing his congregation a service by bending over backwards not to offend?

 

[StormyOne]

So do we white out the verses in our Bibles that might offend or seem to cast judgment? If we welcome drunkards we better not let them see the parts of the Bible that condemn drunkenness, or they might get depressed and leave.

I would imagine it would be hard to come up with a sermon that is able to skip all of the parts of the Bible that deal with morality.

Would a preacher really be doing his congregation a service by bending over backwards not to offend?

A preacher would be doing his congregation a service by inviting in the drunks, prostitutes, the homeless, the castoffs of society and letting them know that they belong to God.... and treat them as a child of God.... let's start there..... as for what to do with the bible... so much damage has been done using that book, perhaps it would be better to put it down for a while...

 

[Avonia]

So do we white out the verses in our Bibles that might offend or seem to cast judgment?

References to homosexuality in the Bible do not appear to be as much about a homosexual relationship as abuse through homosexual acts.

I'm not sure what you mean by aligned. Haven't heard it used like this before. What constitutes a healthy and aligned homosexual relationship?

Love. Good agreements that are honored. Mutual respect. Same ingredients as a heterosexual relationship.

 

[Avonia]

If we welcome drunkards we better not let them see the parts of the Bible that condemn drunkenness, or they might get depressed and leave.

Let's look at causality for both. We know that drunkenness has an array of negative consequences. Families are torn apart. People are killed on the road. Drunkards are often violent. And extreme amounts of alcoholic can kill you.

Homosexuality has no negative consequences - except for the array we've created by condemning homosexuals.

 

[Kira Light]

Let's look at causality for both. We know that drunkenness has an array of negative consequences. Families are torn apart. People are killed on the road. Drunkards are often violent. And extreme amounts of alcoholic can kill you.

Homosexuality has no negative consequences - except for the array we've created by condemning homosexuals.

I know plenty of drunks who haven't faced any of these consequences. Does that mean its OK? Also, I do realize homosexuality is not exactly the same as drunkenness. I know that must blow your mind, but I do understand the difference. It's funny to me to watch myself get straw manned to death for using any and every analogy in this debate. It's effective I suppose

I can think of a handful of negative consequences with regards to homosexual men. Many are too unpleasant to really want to list here. The worst ones are definitely due to the abundance of sexual partners we find with homosexual men. I suppose you blame that on Christianity too though

 

[Kira Light]

Standing back from all of this for a moment, I am realizing we are going in circles here because we are operating from a different premise.

The core of all of this is whether or not the Bible says its OK for someone who is born again to live in a homosexual lifestyle and engage in homosexual activity. It looks like most of you think so. I am pretty unconvinced of this thus far.

 

[StormyOne]

Standing back from all of this for a moment, I am realizing we are going in circles here because we are operating from a different premise.

The core of all of this is whether or not the Bible says its OK for someone who is born again to live in a homosexual lifestyle and engage in homosexual activity. It looks like most of you think so. I am pretty unconvinced of this thus far.

circles? I don't think so... nor am I attempting to convince you to believe as I do... I am making you aware perhaps that not everyone sees this issue through the same lens that you do... and that is the purpose I think of good dialog..... now the other issue you raise, i.e. being born again, is a completely different topic..... which most people are hard pressed to define, i.e. what does it mean to be "born again," what does it look like, how would you know, etc.... maybe another thread....

 

[Avonia]

I know plenty of drunks who haven't faced any of these consequences.

Every drunk experiences impaired judgment, every time.

It's funny to me to watch myself get straw manned to death for using any and every analogy in this debate.

My intention is to give you the opportunity to experience another perspective - not to win a debate. As a heterosexual, I gained my perspective from being around a fairly large number of homosexuals over the years. I would not hold the perspectives I hold without this experience. And I do not expect you to fully understand my perspectives without the benefit of similar experiences.

However, that you are willing to talk about it in a reasoned, kind manner says a lot about you.

 

[StormyOne]

I know plenty of drunks who haven't faced any of these consequences. Does that mean its OK? Also, I do realize homosexuality is not exactly the same as drunkenness. I know that must blow your mind, but I do understand the difference. It's funny to me to watch myself get straw manned to death for using any and every analogy in this debate. It's effective I suppose

I can think of a handful of negative consequences with regards to homosexual men. Many are too unpleasant to really want to list here. The worst ones are definitely due to the abundance of sexual partners we find with homosexual men. I suppose you blame that on Christianity too though

and homosexual women, negative consequences would be what? Are you making the assumption that homosexual men have alot of partners? Would that be more or less than the 700 wives and 300 concubines (and lets not sugar coat what concubines were) that Solomon reportedly had?

 

[Kira Light]

and homosexual women, negative consequences would be what? Are you making the assumption that homosexual men have alot of partners? Would that be more or less than the 700 wives and 300 concubines (and lets not sugar coat what concubines were) that Solomon reportedly had?

The actual negative physical consequences discussion is a spin-off of this stawman used against me saying that I claimed homosexuality is just as damaging to the body as alcohol. I should not have allowed it to derail me into this meaningless debate about whether homosexual acts are more physically damaging in men vs women or hetero vs homo. It is just irrelevant.

The true debate is whether homosexual acts are something a born again Christian would actively engage in. This seems to be something you guys don't wanna debate here though.

I am not assuming homosexual men have more partners so much as I am just regurgitating statistics I have heard countless times. It is harder to google than you would think because of all the propaganda out there. I am 99% sure that is true though and if you absolutely demand it I will go and look for the study.

Polygamy is an entirely different issue. I would say Biblically it is a less egregious sin than homosexuality. Probably should not go down that road here...

 

[Kira Light]

circles? I don't think so... nor am I attempting to convince you to believe as I do... I am making you aware perhaps that not everyone sees this issue through the same lens that you do... and that is the purpose I think of good dialog..... now the other issue you raise, i.e. being born again, is a completely different topic..... which most people are hard pressed to define, i.e. what does it mean to be "born again," what does it look like, how would you know, etc.... maybe another thread....

I am very very aware that not everyone sees this issue through the same lens that I do.

 

[Kira Light]

Every drunk experiences impaired judgment, every time.



My intention is to give you the opportunity to experience another perspective - not to win a debate. As a heterosexual, I gained my perspective from being around a fairly large number of homosexuals over the years. I would not hold the perspectives I hold without this experience. And I do not expect you to fully understand my perspectives without the benefit of similar experiences.

However, that you are willing to talk about it in a reasoned, kind manner says a lot about you.

I'm glad I'm still being perceived as kind and willing to talk! Not trying to have a big fight here. Just offering my perspective because everyone was in such agreement in this thread it was a bit boring

 

[BigRedBus]

I’m glad you are staying around for the debate, Kira Light. You are certainly fighting your corner, I just hope you can see where the rest of us are coming from.

From what you have stated here on this thread, I get the impression that you might be happy to see rights granted to gay people in theory but not if it involves any time or expense on the legislature’s part. And you don’t appear to want to see these theoretical rights then being exercised in any meaningful way. Your justification (if I read you correctly) is that you think homosexuals don’t have to be that way if they don’t want to be, and the Bible says homosexuality is wrong. That particular minority can go to the back of the queue and stay there, as far as you are concerned.

Don’t you think that approach is counterintuitive to the more general principles of Christianity?

You say that people were discriminated against in the 1st and 2nd century AD, within the Roman Empire. I’m quite sure they were, but it was in a very different society where people had very different expectations of their government. It was a more cruel, violent society than ours, with far less opportunity for free speech.

Homosexuals do not have to be promiscuous, they can have monogamous relationships. But it’s not made easy for them to do this, and it’s not happening on equal terms with the rest of society – can that really be right?

Gay people are made to feel they cannot be gay as well as Christian. That they are the ones who must change, not the church. But how can you change if you can’t? The church can instil gay people with a sense of guilt over the expression of their sexuality – but when it’s something that harms nobody else and feels natural, isn’t that none of the church’s business?

I’m sorry if you think that I portray you (and other fundamentalist Christians) as bible-thumping bigots because of your stance on this issue. But can’t you see what gives me this impression, even if I’m wrong about you?

What won’t help is a cultural disconnect between England and the USA. Though we are strong allies in many ways, we often see the world quite differently. Christian fundamentalism is much rarer here than in the USA. Where it does exist it tends to have been “imported”. It is seen as an irrelevance, it comes nowhere near mainstream thinking. It stays much more in the background than in American culture and if it expresses itself stridently it is actively disliked.

 

[Kira Light]

Yo, BRB. This is a lot to respond to. Hope I do so sufficiently and quickly.

I don't think homosexuals can choose not to be homosexuals. I do believe they can refrain from acting on it. Part of living as fallen and sinful beings is denying yourself a lot of what it desires. Way way back in this thread I was talking more on that angle and just about the unfairness that exists there because homosexuals would have to deny themselves something that heterosexuals do not.

Moving on. You toss out my argument that the early disciples and Christians didn't spend their time trying to manipulate the laws of temporary kingdoms here on earth, but I don't really accept your theory that this was only because governments were much more violent and cruel back then. I don't believe if the disciples were alive today they would spend their time and energy trying to change US or British laws regarding insurance and medical equality for homosexuals.

I see most people here don't want to address whether a born again Christian would or should be actively engaging in homosexual activity. It makes it difficult to push any point home when I don't have anyone on record with that.

I think you point about society forcing homosexuals to be more promiscuous is dead wrong. I am not at all surprised Christians are getting blamed for even that, however, and I even predicted as much a few posts back.

When you talk about the church's relationship to homosexuals within it and claim it is none of the church's business, it just strikes me that the church is only trying to put these people on the right path to God. They aren't doing this out of hatred. They believe homosexuals truly need to repent and turn from actively engaging in homosexual acts. This is an act of love. You may disagree with it, and I certainly do disagree with some churches methods, but that's a whole nother thing.

I'm fine with any labels that you wanna dump on me. Just sometimes a bit surprised at how little it takes to get one. Oh well, was bound to happen

 

[StormyOne]

Kira, thanks for the dialog.... we can discuss what born again christians may or may not do as soon as you define what the term "born again" means. Explain how one arrives at that state and how would a person know that they are born again... Likewise let me put out my disclaimer, I do not subscribe to the inner man outer man theory, nor do I view the idea of man having a heart, soul, and mind theory as valid....

So define the term born again, and we can explore what a born again hetero or homosexual person might do.....