A Losing Battle

[SkyWriting]

I think our fight is against this mentality, not against one another as Christians.

Having been to church many times, I never label people as Christians. It's a
catagory that creates more problems than value. My uncle is a minister and
the least Christian I know. I think I know two Spirit filled people.

 

[SkyWriting]

I think morning after rape abortion pills may be practical as the fetus has not had time to take a definite form and the act was not consensual or practical.

"Practical" does not cover much crime.
And the use of morning after pills is not limited to rape situations.

 

[amariselle]

Having been to church many times, I never label people as Christians. It's a
catagory that creates more problems than value. My uncle is a minister and
the least Christian I know. I think I know two Spirit filled people.

To me "Christian" simply means "follower of Christ". But I agree that it has a lot of negative connotations and that not everyone who calls themselves a Christian actually acts like one.

Although, in terms of making mistakes and falling short, we ALL do. There is no such thing as a perfect Christian.

 

[SkyWriting]

To me "Christian" simply means "follower of Christ". But I agree that it has a lot of negative connotations and that not everyone who calls themselves a Christian actually acts like one.
Although, in terms of making mistakes and falling short, we ALL do. There is no such thing as a perfect Christian.

When my uncle says a prayer out loud you'd swear he meant every word.
But that's the only time you'd mistake him for a Christian.
Perhaps when he gives sermons, but I've never wanted to.
He is captious (apt to make trivial criticisms; fault-finding; carping)

 

[amariselle]

When my uncle says a prayer out loud you'd swear he meant every word.
But that's the only time you'd mistake him for a Christian.
Perhaps when he gives sermons, but I've never wanted to.
He is captious (apt to make trivial criticisms; fault-finding; carping)

Yes, we should not go on a person's words alone. We need to look at the fruits of someone's life as well. Many people seem sincere and even use Jesus' name, but they are not following Jesus at all. I cannot judge your uncle of course, so I am only speaking generally.

 

[SkyWriting]

Yes, we should not go on a person's words alone. We need to look at the fruits of someone's life as well. Many people seem sincere and even use Jesus' name, but they are not following Jesus at all. I cannot judge your uncle of course, so I am only speaking generally.

I don't judge him, I avoid him and detest him.
But he is the reason I don't find the term "Christian" useful.

 

[amariselle]

I don't judge him, I avoid him and detest him.
But he is the reason I don't find the term "Christian" useful.

Fair enough, I wasn't speaking of what you should do, I was acknowledging that I cannot judge him. I don't even know him.

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

That is actually exactly what I've been trying to say when the issue of abortion comes up. Maybe you've read what others have said on these forums, but some Atheists in particular are saying that people who choose to have abortions are quite happy with their decision. I have tried to stand up and say that this is far from the truth, however they reference statistics and phone surveys as evidence that women never regret having an abortion and throw out every personal story I reference as "mere anecdotes."

I think our fight is against this mentality, not against one another as Christians.

The mentality one should be against, particularly if one is a Christian, is any acceptance of untruth, anything that is not in accord with seeking out and illuminating the truth. You can say the other's position is "far from the truth," but I do wonder if what you have in defense of that is more than a few anecdotes? It may be quite a few if "the right people" are surveyed extensively enough, but I suspect it is primarily people who were "pro-life" before having an abortion who seem to be regretting it afterward.

Presumably more"pro-choice" people would be having abortions than "pro-life," presumably the actual reality would be, far more who don't have much in the way of qualms about abortion in the first place are actually having them?

So what I don't understand is why anyone wouldn't think it is indeed true that most "people who choose to have abortions are quite happy with their decision." After all, it is not that there is no reason for them to be having one, not even that they "only do it as a matter of convenience," as is sometimes suggested. BEING PREGNANT WHEN ONE DEFINITELY DOE NOT WANT TO BE PREGNANT, perhaps one is not married and quite a lot of other factors are likely in play (like it costs a lot to raise a child, whether married or not), is not the happiest situation. So IF there are not moral qualms that seem to the individual to override those serious considerations of future happiness, then why would there not be HAPPINESS when they were able to return themselves to their former unpregnant state?

Perhaps the one who has trouble seeing this is not remembering that there are many who do not view the matter in the same way they do - and therefore do not have the same reactions?

It is not an inconsequential action, and NOT A RESULT THE PERSON WHO HAS THE ABORTION DOES NOT WANT. (Almost by definition,)

 

[amariselle]

The mentality one should be against, particularly if one is a Christian, is any acceptance of untruth, anything that is not in accord with seeking out and illuminating the truth. You can say the other's position is "far from the truth," but I do wonder if what you have in defense of that is more than a few anecdotes? It may be quite a few if "the right people" are surveyed extensively enough, but I suspect it is primarily people who were "pro-life" before having an abortion who seem to be regretting it afterward.

Presumably more"pro-choice" people would be having abortions than "pro-life," presumably the actual reality would be, far more who don't have much in the way of qualms about abortion in the first place are actually having them?

So what I don't understand is why anyone wouldn't think it is indeed true that most "people who choose to have abortions are quite happy with their decision." After all, it is not that there is no reason for them to be having one, not even that they "only do it as a matter of convenience," as is sometimes suggested. BEING PREGNANT WHEN ONE DEFINITELY DOE NOT WANT TO BE PREGNANT, perhaps one is not married and quite a lot of other factors are likely in play (like it costs a lot to raise a child, whether married or not), is not the happiest situation. So IF there are not moral qualms that seem to the individual to override those serious considerations of future happiness, then why would there not be HAPPINESS when they were able to return themselves to their former unpregnant state?

Perhaps the one who has trouble seeing this is not remembering that there are many who do not view the matter in the same way they do - and therefore do not have the same reactions?

It is not an inconsequential action, and NOT A RESULT THE PERSON WHO HAS THE ABORTION DOES NOT WANT. (Almost by definition,)

To really find out what women (and men) go through in regards to having had an abortion (or men who have been or are the partner or spouse of a woman who has) we need to be willing to listen.

 

[Arsenios]

I do not pray for other people.

Would you please reconsider and pray for me?

I've found that prayer only changes me, not others.

Please simply pray that God will have mercy on the chief of sinners Arsenios...

And it gives God an opportunity to let me know He's listening. But it never helps
others beyond how it changes me.

I have found just the opposite - My prayers for others are answered all the time, and those for myself not so much - I am like the woman who bugged the Judge with so many petitions that he finally gave her the ruling...

And you don't need my forgiveness for anything.

I desparately need your forgiveness...

I have no authority.

You are the one I offended...

Please forgive my mouth...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I don't remember much before age 10.
So I can't emphasize with anyone
younger than that I guess.

Oddly, I manage very well with kids
by loving them anyway.

I will tell you a secret - A child in the womb is very aware of its universe, and the mother IS that universe... The child is utterly at peace there, in total innocence, without words... It knows the world outside the mother's womb by knowing without words the mother in whose womb he or she IS...

I used to not remember much before age 10... It took a long time and a lot of help to get back what was not lost but buried...

God bless you, and please pray for me...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I don't judge him, I avoid him and detest him.

Good grief - How can you detest a person you have not judged?

But he is the reason I don't find the term "Christian" useful.

I detested Christians too...

They were all a bunch of judgmental hypocrites as far as I was concerned!

God's conversion of me to Christ is a slap-stick and hugely funny story...

I knew God for 14 years before He told me He is the Christian God...

And I was SCANDALIZED!

Arsenios

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

To really find out what women (and men) go through in regards to having had an abortion (or men who have been or are the partner or spouse of a woman who has) we need to be willing to listen.

If you only listen to those who are very opposed to abortion you may miss some aspects of "what men and women go through." Dare I say you may not arrive at the whole truth?

 

[amariselle]

If you only listen to those who are very opposed to abortion you may miss some aspects of "what men and women go through." Dare I say you may not arrive at the whole truth?

That is not what I was saying at all.

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

That is not what I was saying at all.

Am I supposed to only echo what you say?

If after you said we should be willing to listen, I had said nothing about anything, that would have been much better - is that what you are trying to say? In other words, can you understand I should be able to say something that is not simply what you were saying?

Please note that I did NOT say anything to contradict ":"To really find out what women (and men) go through in regards to having had an abortion (or men who have been or are the partner or spouse of a woman who has) we need to be willing to listen."

 

[Arsenios]

Am I supposed to only echo what you say?

Some of us would actually regard such an action on your part...

As a START...

That you actually listened to and heard her...

Arsenios

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

Some of us would actually regard such an action on your part...

As a START...

That you actually listened to and heard her...

Arsenios

You might have noticed I did that. I sent back to her what she actually said, and my summary of what she said!

Are you a shut up censor too?

 

[amariselle]

Am I supposed to only echo what you say?

If after you said we should be willing to listen, I had said nothing about anything, that would have been much better - is that what you are trying to say? In other words, can you understand I should be able to say something that is not simply what you were saying?

Please note that I did NOT say anything to contradict ":"To really find out what women (and men) go through in regards to having had an abortion (or men who have been or are the partner or spouse of a woman who has) we need to be willing to listen."

My apologies, it seemed as though you were suggesting I only wanted to listen to those who are already opposed to abortion.

You said:

"If you only listen to those who are very opposed to abortion you may miss some aspects of "what men and women go through." Dare I say you may not arrive at the whole truth?"

It just sounded to me like you think I only want to listen to certain people, (those very opposed to abortion) and that if so I would therefore not arrive at the whole truth. If that is how I think, I would have to agree with you. I was simply trying to point out that that is not what I think at all.

And no, please do not repeat everything I say. I never asked you to do that either.

 

[amariselle]

You might have noticed I did that. I sent back to her what she actually said, and my summary of what she said!

Are you a shut up censor too?

Can we please try to be kind to one another? I don't think anyone was telling anyone else to "shut up."

 

[Arsenios]

You might have noticed I did that. I sent back to her what she actually said, and my summary of what she said!

Are you a shut up censor too?

I should doubtless BE shut up, as in locked away without possibilities!

And yes, you did as you said, and indeed, it is a start...

Forgive me for being less than fully generous with you...

You just did not seem all that joyful about echoing her thoughts...

Which is, as you have doubtless surmised, none of my business!!

So will you forgive me??

Arsenios