A look at the 144,000

[MidnightCry]

Surely the Lord God does nothing, Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets. A lion has roared! Who will not fear? The Lord God has spoken! Who can but prophesy? (Amos 3:7,8)


John calls the 144,000, "servants," "servants the prophets," and "servants of God" in the book of Revelation. (Rev. 6:11, 7:3, 10:7, 19:2). Please note the following texts:

Then a white robe was given to each of them; (the martyrs) and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Rev. 6:11)

Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads. And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed. (Rev. 7:3,4)

But in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets. (Rev. 10:7)

The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth. (Rev.11:18)

And I heard the angel of the waters saying: "You are righteous, O Lard, The One who is and who was and who is to be, Because You have judged dthese things. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, And You have given them blood to drink. For it is their just due." (Rev. 16:5,6)

If we compare these four passages to one another, we find that John consistently distinguishes between God's servants and God's saints. Since the fifth seal occurs during the latter part of the Great Tribulation, we have to consider, "What servants" of God will be slain during the Great Tribulation?

In the fourth text, Rev. 5-6, John distinguishes between "saints" and "prophets." We definitely have two groups of people. During the seven last plagues, the third bowl will be poured out. The Bible says the third bowl will be specifically directed to those who shed the blood of "saints" and "prophets."

The third text says that just before the seventh trumpet sounds, "The mystery of God will be accomplished just as He announced to His servants the prophets." What prophets will be informed about "the mystery of God" prior to the sounding of the seventh trumpet? It is the 144,000! The 144,000 will be a distinct group of people who are separate and distinct from the numberless multitude who come out of the Great Tribulation.

In Rev. 11:18, the seventh trumpet sounds, loud voices in Heaven will urgently proclaim that the time has arrived for Jesus to avenge the killing of His "prophets" and "saints" Once again John distinguishes between a group of people called prophets and a group of people called saints, and he indicates that people in both groups will suffer death during the Great Tribulation.

Before the Great Tribulation begins, God will select, empower, and seal 144,000 servants who will serve His as prophets during the Great Tribulation. These people will speak for God. Most of these servants of God will suffer the fate of prophets in ages past. (Matthew 23:37)

There are many more texts in the Bible that state "servants the prophets." We will look at more next.

YSIC,
MidnightCry

Castaway57,

Please see my post #29 above. The Bible does call the 144,000 servants and servants the prophets.

They are the first to be sealed and redeemed from the earth. They are the firstfruits of the coming harvest, as I have already stated. Please see the posts above.

MC

 

[Castaway57]

Castaway57,

Please see my post #29 above. The Bible does call the 144,000 servants and servants the prophets.

They are the first to be sealed and redeemed from the earth. They are the firstfruits of the coming harvest, as I have already stated. Please see the posts above.

MC

There are only two texts in the Bible which mentions a hundred and forty and four thousand, and only one of them calls them "servants." Nowhere are they called "prophets." This is a complete fabrication not found in Scripture. The Bible does not say that everyone called "servant" is also a "prophet." None of the texts you provided say that. Certainly, there is no indication that those who are "sealed" of this 144,000 were all prophets. The Bible's definition of "the seal of God would prohibit such a conclusion:

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

One would not have to be a prophet to fit this Bible description of a person who had the seal of God.

 

[Castaway57]

Castaway57,

Please see my post #29 above. The Bible does call the 144,000 servants and servants the prophets.

They are the first to be sealed and redeemed from the earth. They are the firstfruits of the coming harvest, as I have already stated. Please see the posts above.

MC

It would be quite unlikely that the 144,000 is not even a literal number, given the following text:

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Getting dogmatic about the 144,00 always leads to errant theology.

 

[MidnightCry]

It would be quite unlikely that the 144,000 is not even a literal number, given the following text:



Getting dogmatic about the 144,00 always leads to errant theology.

The number 144,000 is not symbolic. If the 144,000 were symbolic then there would be a relevant text to give us the meaning of the symbol. Why would God use one number to symbolize another number? That doesn't even make any sense.

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb..... (Revelation 7:9)

Look at the above verse. How can you not see the obvious? The numberless multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues are the remnant people of God that come from all over the world and from all religious backgrounds. The 144,000 are like John the Baptist, they preach the gospel and tell people to come out of Babylon.

All the people that listen to the gospel and accept Jesus as their Lord and Redeemer, and follow Him, they make up the last remnant church on earth before the return of Christ.

The Book of Revelation all flows together and makes perfect sense. It's not confusing and hard to follow. How can you not at least see this?

YSIC,
MidnightCry

 

[Castaway57]

Well; one might ask how you can ignore the text I just gave you, and pit the Bible against itself as you have just done.

 

[MidnightCry]

Well; one might ask how you can ignore the text I just gave you, and pit the Bible against itself as you have just done.

What text did you just give me that I ignored? How did I pit the Bible against itself?

MC

 

[Adventtruth]

Adventtruth,

I have to disagree with you. Hyperbole is not used in scripture. God does not need to exaggerate to make a point.

Apocalyptic language can be literal, symbolic, or analogous. To reach the intended meaning of a passage, you must consider: 1) the context, 2) the use of parallel language in the Bible, and 3) a relevant text that defines the symbol if an element is thought to be symbolic language.

The above text is literal to a certain degree. God will send an angel to bind Satan to this earth during the 1,000 at the end of time. Exactly how He will do that, I don't know. I know that Satan will appear on Earth during the Great Tribulation to deceive many. He will be visible. When Jesus returns, Satan and His angels will return to the spirit world and will not be able to deceive anyone for 1,000 years.

Where is the exaggeration? What is the point being made by hyperbole? The scripture states what will happen.


YSIC,
MidnightCry

Oh I disagree with you. Symbolic language is an exaggeration, MC. Hyperbole, one of over 200 different types of figures of speech found in the Bible, is exaggeration for effect. Here is one such passage that is hyperbole which you say is not in the bible.

"You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.” (Matt. 23:24, NIV)


And what does it mean? "“You pay close attention to little things but neglect the important things.”

Hyperbole or symbolism, or exaggerations are never to be taken literal but are to relay a message.

Here is more Hyperbole.

"If thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out…" Matt. 5:29 Or do you suppose that to be literal as well, MC?

AT

 

[Adventtruth]

Castaway57,

Please see my post #29 above. The Bible does call the 144,000 servants and servants the prophets.

They are the first to be sealed and redeemed from the earth. They are the firstfruits of the coming harvest, as I have already stated. Please see the posts above.

MC

MC...you are taking stuff out of context.

 

[MidnightCry]

Oh I disagree with you. Symbolic language is an exaggeration, MC. Hyperbole, one of over 200 different types of figures of speech found in the Bible, is exaggeration for effect. Here is one such passage that is hyperbole which you say is not in the bible.

"You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.” (Matt. 23:24, NIV)


And what does it mean? "“You pay close attention to little things but neglect the important things.”

Hyperbole or symbolism, or exaggerations are never to be taken literal but are to relay a message.

Here is more Hyperbole.

"If thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out…" Matt. 5:29 Or do you suppose that to be literal as well, MC?

AT

Adventtruth,

I was referring to apocalyptic prophecy, mainly the scripture in Daniel and Revelation.

MC

 

[MidnightCry]

MC...you are taking stuff out of context.

Adventtruth,

Please show me an example from the above post that is taken out of context. What do you mean exactly?

MC

 

[Adventtruth]

Adventtruth,

I was referring to apocalyptic prophecy, mainly the scripture in Daniel and Revelation.

MC

Well thats not what you said earlier...read below

Hyperbole is not used in scripture.

And please tell me you are not saying there is none in apocalyptic text after I gave you one such passage earlier?

 

[Adventtruth]

Adventtruth,

Please show me an example from the above post that is taken out of context. What do you mean exactly?

MC

The bible does not call the 144,000 prophets...to say they are with other text trying to support you idea is to take them out of context.

 

[MidnightCry]

The bible does not call the 144,000 prophets...to say they are with other text trying to support you idea is to take them out of context.

Adventruth,

You still haven't shown me which verse you are talking about. This thread is discussing the group of 144,000 that are presented in Revelation. The verses that I listed are all taken from Revelation:

Revelation 6:11
Revelation 7:3,4
Revelation 10:7; 11:15,18
Revelation 16:4-6

If you were going to study the 144,000 what book of the Bible would you look at? What verses would you look at?

I also posted scripture from the Old Testament:

2 Kings 17:22,23
Jeremiah 7:25,26
Ezekiel 38:16,17
Daniel 9:6,10Joel 2:28,29

I wanted to see where in the Bible "servants the prophets" are used for a comparison. It is an interesting comparison. Have you actually read the verses?

YSIC,
MidnightCry

 

[Castaway57]

I wanted to see where in the Bible "servants the prophets" are used for a comparison. It is an interesting comparison. Have you actually read the verses?

YSIC,
MidnightCry

Yes; it is an interesting comparison; except that it would not always apply to "servants." Not all "servants" are prophets. That idea is not in the Bible.

 

[MidnightCry]

Yes; it is an interesting comparison; except that it would not always apply to "servants." Not all "servants" are prophets. That idea is not in the Bible.

I didn't say it was.

but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets. Revelation 10:7)

The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, and those who fear Your name, small and great, and should destroy those who destroy the earth. (Revelation 10:18)


What or who is referred to in the above verses when the term "servants the prophets" and the term "saints" is used?

God is logical and He does not waste words; everything He has written in the Bible for us means something. The above verses are very clear. So, can you tell me what is meant by "servants the prophets" and the "saints?"

YSIC,
MidnightCry

 

[Adventtruth]

I didn't say it was.

but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets. Revelation 10:7)

The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, and those who fear Your name, small and great, and should destroy those who destroy the earth. (Revelation 10:18)


What or who is referred to in the above verses when the term "servants the prophets" and the term "saints" is used?

God is logical and He does not waste words; everything He has written in the Bible for us means something. The above verses are very clear. So, can you tell me what is meant by "servants the prophets" and the "saints?"

YSIC,
MidnightCry

The passage in Rev 10.7 from looking at context as well as the verb tenses and mood, leads to the prophets of old like in the old testament who had the job of preaching the gospel to those of old.....and the passage in Rev 11:18 even backs this up as the passage mentions the judgment is coming upon the dead....the servants and prophets. Read it in context please.

 

[MidnightCry]

The passage in Rev 10.7 from looking at context as well as the verb tenses and mood, leads to the prophets of old like in the old testament who had the job of preaching the gospel to those of old.....and the passage in Rev 11:18 even backs this up as the passage mentions the judgment is coming upon the dead....the servants and prophets. Read it in context please.

Adventtruth,

The Book of Revelation is a book about the second coming of Jesus. Why would God put a verse about the "prophets of old" (whatever that means) in a book talking about the wrath of God that will proceed the second coming?

Please open your Bible to Revelation chapter 10.

We have a mighty angel coming down from heaven. Read the description of what He looks like. This is Jesus. He has a little book in his hand. He stands on the sea and the land. This tells us He has dominion over the entire earth, both land and sea. Seven thunders spoke. We don't know what they said because we are not told in the book of Revelation what they said.

The angel John sees raises up His hand to heaven and swore by Him who lives forever and ever. Jesus raises up His right hand and swears to His Father that He will destroy sin and sinners as planned from the creation of the world. He swears there will be no more delay. We are living in that delay right now. Waiting for the 144,000 to be sealed. At the seventh trumpet, remember seven means completion, the mystery of God will be finished.

Now turn to Revelation 11:18

The seventh angel sounded his trumpet. Jesus becomes Lord over the earth, He takes rightful possession of the earth, away from Satan. Look at verse 18. The time of wrath has come. Everyone will be judged. The saints and the servants the prophets (the 144,000) will receive their reward. And all those who fear the name of Jesus. Those who are evil and who have destroyed the earth will be destroyed.

Where have I taken a verse out of context?

Whenever Jesus punished Israel for idolatry by sending them into captivity, He always sent a prophet to warn them. Just look in the Old Testament. He wanted His people to turn to Him.

Before the flood, God sent Noah to warn people and try to get them in the ark. Before Jesus came, John the Baptist was sent to preach. It seems to me, before any major event occurred, that affected God's people -- He warned them. He tried to save them from captivity and destruction.

Are you telling me that before God sends His wrath upon the earth to destroy sin and sinners, that He will not send a prophet to warn His people? Won't He try to save as many people as He can? Is God not fair? Doesn't He love everyone, righteous and sinner alike?

If these verses are talking about Old Testament prophets, please show me where in the Old Testament the "mystery of God" was finished. You could start by telling me what the mystery of God is if you like.

YSIC,
MidnightCry

 

[MidnightCry]

One more point, why does John differentiate between "servants the prophets" and "saints." Why does He specifically mention two groups of God's people?

Remember, God does not waste words. He doesn't just put a word in that doesn't mean something. Everything God says is important and has meaning. Is He trying to tell us something?

YSIC,
MidnightCry

 

[Adventtruth]

Adventtruth,

The Book of Revelation is a book about the second coming of Jesus. Why would God put a verse about the "prophets of old" (whatever that means) in a book talking about the wrath of God that will proceed the second coming?

Please open your Bible to Revelation chapter 10.

We have a mighty angel coming down from heaven. Read the description of what He looks like. This is Jesus. He has a little book in his hand. He stands on the sea and the land. This tells us He has dominion over the entire earth, both land and sea. Seven thunders spoke. We don't know what they said because we are not told in the book of Revelation what they said.

The angel John sees raises up His hand to heaven and swore by Him who lives forever and ever. Jesus raises up His right hand and swears to His Father that He will destroy sin and sinners as planned from the creation of the world. He swears there will be no more delay. We are living in that delay right now. Waiting for the 144,000 to be sealed. At the seventh trumpet, remember seven means completion, the mystery of God will be finished.

Now turn to Revelation 11:18

The seventh angel sounded his trumpet. Jesus becomes Lord over the earth, He takes rightful possession of the earth, away from Satan. Look at verse 18. The time of wrath has come. Everyone will be judged. The saints and the servants the prophets (the 144,000) will receive their reward. And all those who fear the name of Jesus. Those who are evil and who have destroyed the earth will be destroyed.

Where have I taken a verse out of context?

Whenever Jesus punished Israel for idolatry by sending them into captivity, He always sent a prophet to warn them. Just look in the Old Testament. He wanted His people to turn to Him.

Before the flood, God sent Noah to warn people and try to get them in the ark. Before Jesus came, John the Baptist was sent to preach. It seems to me, before any major event occurred, that affected God's people -- He warned them. He tried to save them from captivity and destruction.

Are you telling me that before God sends His wrath upon the earth to destroy sin and sinners, that He will not send a prophet to warn His people? Won't He try to save as many people as He can? Is God not fair? Doesn't He love everyone, righteous and sinner alike?

If these verses are talking about Old Testament prophets, please show me where in the Old Testament the "mystery of God" was finished. You could start by telling me what the mystery of God is if you like.

YSIC,
MidnightCry

Before we get to Rev 11. lets settle this thing in Rev 10.7

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Look at the sentence structure and look at the word "hath". The tense is "Aorist"...its based on the verb or action which is the mystery of God should be finish."Hath" Is past tense. So he is stating the "mystery of God should be finished" was also told to His servants the prophets..... In Johns day it had to be the prophets of old whom it was declared too, and now the voice of the seventh angel is going to declare that same message.

Do you understand?

 

[MidnightCry]

Adventtruth,

The seventh trumpet has not sounded yet. It did not sound in John's day. It is yet in the future.

YSIC,
MidnightCry