A look at the 144,000

[rainbowinthesky]

That is a very good question for it is very evident that if the Lord has completed the work of grace in my soul, then the Lord is not going to do any further work in my soul in the second seal. And neither does He. Let it be established in the mind that the second seal is not concerned with the work of the Holy Spirit in the soul of man; that work by that time is complete, and you cannot complete completion, or perfect perfection.

At the same time, the second seal is still the sealing of the people of God. In a way not accomplished by the first seal, this seal will give the people of God a final and eternal protection from sin. This is but to say that although "the full corn" of Christ's character is "in the ear," which is necessary for admission into Heaven, they still cannot enter there until this further work, not accomplished by the first seal, has been done for them.

It is to say that this work is something beyond the province of the Holy Spirit, something which even He cannot do for them. He has done all that He could do in the first seal, but now Another must accomplish this final service for them.

This is not to limit the power of the Holy Spirit in the least. It is not to say that He is anything less than omnipotent. He is truly all-powerful in the fullest sense of the word, but it is not a question of power but one of province. Thus we shall see that the second seal is the work of the Savior Himself and not of the Holy Spirit.

to be continued

 

[MidnightCry]

That is a very good question for it is very evident that if the Lord has completed the work of grace in my soul, then the Lord is not going to do any further work in my soul in the second seal. And neither does He. Let it be established in the mind that the second seal is not concerned with the work of the Holy Spirit in the soul of man; that work by that time is complete, and you cannot complete completion, or perfect perfection.

At the same time, the second seal is still the sealing of the people of God. In a way not accomplished by the first seal, this seal will give the people of God a final and eternal protection from sin. This is but to say that although "the full corn" of Christ's character is "in the ear," which is necessary for admission into Heaven, they still cannot enter there until this further work, not accomplished by the first seal, has been done for them.

It is to say that this work is something beyond the province of the Holy Spirit, something which even He cannot do for them. He has done all that He could do in the first seal, but now Another must accomplish this final service for them.

This is not to limit the power of the Holy Spirit in the least. It is not to say that He is anything less than omnipotent. He is truly all-powerful in the fullest sense of the word, but it is not a question of power but one of province. Thus we shall see that the second seal is the work of the Savior Himself and not of the Holy Spirit.

to be continued

That's confusing. Could you be more specific? Also could you please use scripture to support your views? So, are all believers sealed twice?
What happens if you are not sealed twice?

YSIC,
MidnightCry

 

[rainbowinthesky]

What then is this final work which gives to the people of God the second and final sealing against sin?

Wherein has the first seal not provided the full and final protection? The answer is simple and clear. To understand it we must turn to the unfolding of the gospel work as revealed in the sanctuary.

The sanctuary makes it very clear that there can be no such thing as once saved, always saved. While it is true that pardon and cleansing is a very real and literal matter in the daily experience, it is also to be understood that such pardon and cleansing is conditional on our faithfulness to the end. Ezek.18:14.

Here on this earth we are on probation. Our destiny is not yet finally and eternally secure. The sins which we have confessed are safe and secure in the sanctuary until the great day of final atonement, but then, if we are found without the wedding garment, they will come back on our own heads just as if we had never been forgiven. G.C.420.

The first seal does not provide the protection needed to make us eternally secure from the return of those sins. At the end of the hours of our earthly probation we are still in a position wherein there is the open door of the possibility of those sins returning upon us again.

It is a door which we need to have sealed forever, so that the sin can never ever come back upon us. It must be very apparent that the provision of the sealing off of any possibility of the sin returning upon us from the sanctuary, is a very different work from the work of overcoming.

Yet both, in the truest sense, are a sealing against sin into righteousness. The first seal is preliminary to the second, for if we did not have the first seal then there would be no sin in the sanctuary from the return of which we would need to be protected.

Yet while the first is preliminary to the second, it cannot be complete in itself and without the second all that was accomplished under the first would be of no avail whatsoever. This is a fact which needs to be made quite clear.

sky

 

[rainbowinthesky]

Think of the situation as follows:

A believer has faithfully put away every sin which has ever been shown to him; he has received all the benefit of the former and the latter rain, thus having had the full measure of the character of Christ developed within him; he has faced and passed the great final test and thus has all the inward fitness to enter Heaven; but this does not seal him against the return of the sins which were sent beforehand to judgment. That is a very different work.

It is the other seal and it can be effected by One Person and one alone and that is Jesus the High Priest, who by virtue of the merits of His shed blood can and will make the final atonement for our confessed and forsaken sins.

As this point everything depends upon Him. Just as Queen Esther was the one person in existence who could go in before the king and plead for Israel of old, so Jesus will be the One in existence who can go in and plead before the Father for His people.

But He does not have to do it. His is not a service of compulsion other than that of the divine compulsion of an indwelling and unquenchable love. His ever has been and ever will be a willing sacrifice. Cost Him what it may, we know that He will go through with the final atonement without the least hesitation. On this we can rely with the greatest of certainty and assurance.

But there is a danger that we underestimate the full implications of what this means to us. Therefore, in an effort both to bring home to us how vitally important it is that Jesus does make the final atonement, and to show the nature and work of the second seal, let us suppose that Jesus in the end refused to go through with His work.

That is to say, we are supposing for the moment that when the time comes for Him to step to the mercy seat and sprinkle His blood for the final atonement for our sins by virtue of which He is able to take all the sins of the true people of God and place them upon the scapegoat, He would refuse to do this.

What then?

 

[rainbowinthesky]

What would this mean to the man here upon this earth at that time who, while living, had received the full benefit of the daily sealing, the full impression of the Spirit of God in the character of Christ in his life and in whose heart throbbed the hope of translation?

We need consider no other individual than such for the rest of the living at that time could not receive the benefit of the final atonement anyway.

It could mean that his sins could not and would not go onto the scapegoat. But neither could they remain any longer in the sanctuary from which they must be promptly removed. The limit of time during which they can remain there is expired.

The judgment has come demanding the removal of them from the sanctuary and it will have what it demands. Therefore the sin must be taken out and it must be sent somewhere. Inasmuch as it cannot under such circumstances be placed upon the scapegoat, then it must be returned to the individual himself.

There is no other alternative and such would mean that there would be no salvation for us at all but only the darkness of an eternal night. And this would still be so even though the individual had received all the benefits of the first seal.

In the light of these clear facts, no one should have the least difficulty in seeing that the first seal does not provide us with the protection from the possibility of the return of all our confessed sins.

At the same time it must not be forgotten that the first seal must be had in order to receive the second. It is preliminary but it is not final. Wonderful and perfect as it is, if it was the only seal received, we could not have salvation.

Thus it is that the first seal takes us so far but leaves us unsealed against the awful possibility of the return of all of our sins in the great day of Judgment, but when Jesus steps to the mercy seat and sprinkles His blood as He most certainly will do for every truly repentant child of God who has received all the benefits of the Holy Spirit's work in the first seal, then the sin is placed upon the scapegoat and we are eternally secure against the return of sin in any shape or form.

That final work of Jesus in the sanctuary sets a seal of protection upon us by shutting off forever any possibility of sin regaining its dominion over the people of God. This is the second seal and final seal which is different in every respect from the first seal.

Next: Conclusion

 

[rainbowinthesky]

As we summarised the facts of the first seal, let us now summarize the facts of the second so as to show the difference clearly and distinctly.

1. Whereas the first seal is a work done in us, the second is a work done in the sanctuary.

2. Whereas the first seal is a work done by the Holy Spirit, the second seal is accomplished by our High Priest.

3. The first is done during a certain period of time, the second is done in a moment.

4. The first prepares us for the final test, the second is only given on passing the great final test.

5. The first completes the work in the soul, the second does nothing in the soul.

6. The first is completed before the judgment, the second is given only after passing the judgment. (Only those who pass this judgment, of the living, can become members of the 144,000, those who are to go through the time of Jacob's trouble and be translated without seeing death)

When the Jews of old were not able to understand the difference between the two comings of Christ, it cost them their eternal life, for they were led to expect Him to arrive at His frist coming as He was due to arrive at the second.

When He did not thus come they rejected Him and lost their eternal salvation in consequence. It was as serious as that.

So will the wrong understanding of the seals lead us to take a position which will cost us our eternal life.

Let us see how this could be.

The difficulty with the Jew of old was that he saw one coming where he should have seen that there were two. Likewise, the average professed child of God today sees but the one seal where he should see two.

If only the Jews in the days of Christ had understood the difference between two things which were called by the same name and yet were different, they would not have lost their eternal life.

And today, if only we can understand the difference between the two seals which are called by the same name and yet are different, then we too shall be saved from the consequences of thus being confused.

Today, we must be in an attitude to receive both the former and the latter rain by trusting daily in the all-sufficient merits of a crucified and risen Saviour that our hearts may be marked or cleansed by the atoning blood and thus become vessels fit for the Master's use. (Rom.3:25) As the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is being written upon the fleshly tablets of our hearts, we shall have the preparation to receive the great final seal when that time comes. May each one make his calling and election sure. Amen!

sky

 

[MidnightCry]

OK. Enough of this.

In the future, when posting in this thread, please support your views with scripture.

Second, there is only one sealing of God's people. It takes place during the Great Tribulation. The 144,000 are the first to be sealed. No one has this seal of God at this time.

YSIC,
MidnightCry

 

[MidnightCry]

Let's look at the following specifications concerning the 144,000. Then we can look at each specificaiton:

1. John calls the 144,000, "servants, "servants the prophets," and "servants of God" in the book of Revelation. (Rev. 6:11, 7:3, 10:7, 19:2)

2. The four angels do not hurt Earth until the 144,000 are sealed. (Rev. 7:3)

3. The 144,000 will be the first to receive the seal of God (Rev. 7:3) They will be presented to God as the firstfruits of the Great Tribulation. They will not be defiled with women and they will travel with Jesus wherever He goes. (Rev. 14:4)

4. Unlike the numberless multitude who will come out of the Great Tribulation, the 144,000 will be numbered. (Rev. 7:5-8, 9, 14)

5. The 144,000 will experience and endure the sufferings of Christ. They will be honored above the rest of the redeemed. No one else will be able to sing their song. (Rev. 14:1,3)

6. No lie or falsehood will be found in the mouths of the 144,000. (Rev. 14:5)

7. The 144,000 will visibly wear the names of the Father and Son on their foreheads throughout eternity. (Rev. 14:1; Rev. 22:3,4)

8. The 144,000 will be Jews, descendants of Abraham. (Rev. 7:5-8)

tomorrow we will look at specification #1.



YSIC,
MidnightCry

 

[MidnightCry]

Surely the Lord God does nothing, Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets. A lion has roared! Who will not fear? The Lord God has spoken! Who can but prophesy? (Amos 3:7,8)


John calls the 144,000, "servants," "servants the prophets," and "servants of God" in the book of Revelation. (Rev. 6:11, 7:3, 10:7, 19:2). Please note the following texts:

Then a white robe was given to each of them; (the martyrs) and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Rev. 6:11)

Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads. And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed. (Rev. 7:3,4)

But in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets. (Rev. 10:7)

The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth. (Rev.11:18)

And I heard the angel of the waters saying: "You are righteous, O Lard, The One who is and who was and who is to be, Because You have judged dthese things. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, And You have given them blood to drink. For it is their just due." (Rev. 16:5,6)

If we compare these four passages to one another, we find that John consistently distinguishes between God's servants and God's saints. Since the fifth seal occurs during the latter part of the Great Tribulation, we have to consider, "What servants" of God will be slain during the Great Tribulation?

In the fourth text, Rev. 5-6, John distinguishes between "saints" and "prophets." We definitely have two groups of people. During the seven last plagues, the third bowl will be poured out. The Bible says the third bowl will be specifically directed to those who shed the blood of "saints" and "prophets."

The third text says that just before the seventh trumpet sounds, "The mystery of God will be accomplished just as He announced to His servants the prophets." What prophets will be informed about "the mystery of God" prior to the sounding of the seventh trumpet? It is the 144,000! The 144,000 will be a distinct group of people who are separate and distinct from the numberless multitude who come out of the Great Tribulation.

In Rev. 11:18, the seventh trumpet sounds, loud voices in Heaven will urgently proclaim that the time has arrived for Jesus to avenge the killing of His "prophets" and "saints" Once again John distinguishes between a group of people called prophets and a group of people called saints, and he indicates that people in both groups will suffer death during the Great Tribulation.

Before the Great Tribulation begins, God will select, empower, and seal 144,000 servants who will serve His as prophets during the Great Tribulation. These people will speak for God. Most of these servants of God will suffer the fate of prophets in ages past. (Matthew 23:37)

There are many more texts in the Bible that state "servants the prophets." We will look at more next.

YSIC,
MidnightCry

 

[Adventtruth]

Let's look at the following specifications concerning the 144,000. Then we can look at each specificaiton:

1. John calls the 144,000, "servants, "servants the prophets," and "servants of God" in the book of Revelation. (Rev. 6:11, 7:3, 10:7, 19:2)

2. The four angels do not hurt Earth until the 144,000 are sealed. (Rev. 7:3)

3. The 144,000 will be the first to receive the seal of God (Rev. 7:3) They will be presented to God as the firstfruits of the Great Tribulation. They will not be defiled with women and they will travel with Jesus wherever He goes. (Rev. 14:4)

4. Unlike the numberless multitude who will come out of the Great Tribulation, the 144,000 will be numbered. (Rev. 7:5-8, 9, 14)

5. The 144,000 will experience and endure the sufferings of Christ. They will be honored above the rest of the redeemed. No one else will be able to sing their song. (Rev. 14:1,3)

6. No lie or falsehood will be found in the mouths of the 144,000. (Rev. 14:5)

7. The 144,000 will visibly wear the names of the Father and Son on their foreheads throughout eternity. (Rev. 14:1; Rev. 22:3,4)

8. The 144,000 will be Jews, descendants of Abraham. (Rev. 7:5-8)

tomorrow we will look at specification #1.



YSIC,
MidnightCry

Is the scripture you quoted literal or hyperbole?

Why or why note?

 

[MidnightCry]

Is the scripture you quoted literal or hyperbole?

Why or why note?

Are you serious? Seriously???

I don't have time for this, I have a million things to do.

YSIC,
MidnightCry

 

[Adventtruth]

Are you serious? Seriously???

I don't have time for this, I have a million things to do.

YSIC,
MidnightCry

Yes I am serious! Can you answer the question? It makes a difference. There is an art and science to biblical interpretation and it seems as if you are breaking all the rules.

For instance....you wrote this

"8. The 144,000 will be Jews, descendants of Abraham. (Rev. 7:5-8)"

So you got that from Rev, 7:5-8.

12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.


The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. 2001 (Re 7:5–8). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

So are these literal or hyperbole?

If you say literal then you go against Traditional Adventist teaching and side with dispensationalism who say God is going to bring back literal Jews. So if you say hyperbole then what is it meaning?

 

[MidnightCry]

Adventtruth,

Yes, the scripture is literal. However, it is not man's definition of what a Jew is it is God's definition.

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. (Romans 2:28,29)

Now, you show me apocalyptic prophecy that is written in hyperbole. I am not aware of any, but perhaps I could learn something new.

YSIC,
MidnightCry

 

[Adventtruth]

Adventtruth,

Yes, the scripture is literal. However, it is not man's definition of what a Jew is it is God's definition.

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. (Romans 2:28,29)

Now, you show me apocalyptic prophecy that is written in hyperbole. I am not aware of any, but perhaps I could learn something new.

YSIC,
MidnightCry

Hi MC.....If its literal, then what you have is two peoples of God. Jew and Gentile. Did not Christ died and make one new people of God that consist of all ethnic groups? The passage has to be an exaggeration to make a point.

Also MC...much of Revelation is hyperbole, it is consistent of literature during this time period. Here is one such passage.

"And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season"

These are exaggerations all to get a point across. Not that a angelic being will come with a literal chain and key and through Satan in a bottomless pit. But an exaggeration to show that God will have Satan powerless during the 1000 years....its not literal but hyperbole.

 

[MidnightCry]

Hi MC.....If its literal, then what you have is two peoples of God. Jew and Gentile. Did not Christ died and make one new people of God that consist of all ethnic groups? The passage has to be an exaggeration to make a point.

Also MC...much of Revelation is hyperbole, it is consistent of literature during this time period. Here is one such passage.

"And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season"

These are exaggerations all to get a point across. Not that a angelic being will come with a literal chain and key and through Satan in a bottomless pit. But an exaggeration to show that God will have Satan powerless during the 1000 years....its not literal but hyperbole.

Adventtruth,

I have to disagree with you. Hyperbole is not used in scripture. God does not need to exaggerate to make a point.

Apocalyptic language can be literal, symbolic, or analogous. To reach the intended meaning of a passage, you must consider: 1) the context, 2) the use of parallel language in the Bible, and 3) a relevant text that defines the symbol if an element is thought to be symbolic language.

The above text is literal to a certain degree. God will send an angel to bind Satan to this earth during the 1,000 at the end of time. Exactly how He will do that, I don't know. I know that Satan will appear on Earth during the Great Tribulation to deceive many. He will be visible. When Jesus returns, Satan and His angels will return to the spirit world and will not be able to deceive anyone for 1,000 years.

Where is the exaggeration? What is the point being made by hyperbole? The scripture states what will happen.


YSIC,
MidnightCry

 

[MidnightCry]

OK. We know that the 144,000 are called "servants" in Revelation 7:3, this word tells us their calling. They are servants of God. The word "prophet" tells us they have a mission; a message to deliver from God to His people.

Here are some texts where "servants and servants the prophets" are used:

2 Kings 17:22,23 For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they did not depart from them, until the Lord removed Israel out of His sight, as He had said by all His servants the prophets. So Israel was carried away from their own land to Assyria, as it is to this day.

Jeremiah 7:25,25 Since the day that your fathers came out of the land of Egypt until this day, I have even sent to you all My servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them. Yet they did not obey Me or incline their ear, but stiffened their neck. They did worse than their fathers.

Ezekiel 39:17 ...Thus says the Lord God: "Are you he of whom I have spoken in former days by My servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied for years in those days that I would bring you against them?"

Daniel 9:6,10 Neither have we heeded Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings and our princes, to our fathers and all the people of the land. ........... We have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in His laws, which He set fore us by His servants the prophets.

There are many more texts in the Bible that speak of "servants the prophets." The Bible uses the title, "servants the prophets" nineteen times and in every case this title identifies special individuals whom God selected to speak on His behalf. Of course, the word "servants" can also mean subjects, slaves, employees and believers. But the context in Revelation 7 indicates the 144,000 servants of God will not be ordinary servants.

Even though there is no way to determine who the twelve tribes of Israel are, we know the twelve tribes of Israel exist because God will select and seal 12,000 from each tribe before the four angels hurt Earth. As faithful servants of Jesus Christ, they will do everything the Lord commands. As prophets of Jesus, they will deliver "the testimony of Jesus" during the Great Tribulation.

YSIC,
MidnightCry

 

[MidnightCry]

Has Jesus been waiting for 144,000 people to become sinless so that they can be sealed, or is Jesus waiting for the appointed time to arrive to select and seal 144,000 people?

If Jesus was waiting for 144,000 people to become sinless, a person could argue that the Great Tribulation will never start because a sinner cannot become sinless. A sinner may go for a period of time without sinning, but this does not make him sinless. Once a sinner, forever a sinner. This is why Adam and Eve had to be cast out of the Garden of Eden.

Because we have carnal natures, we are sinful within. We cannot remove our carnal natures. We can subdue our carnal desires through the indwelling power of the Holly Spirit and millions of people have experienced victory over their carnal natures for centuries.

Jesus will choose 144,000 people from each tribe of the children of Israel. He will choose the best from each tribe as firstfruits to be His servants. These servants will answer His call and endure the trials and tribulation of being His prophets.

So what is He waiting for?

YSIC,
MidnightCry

 

[Castaway57]

As prophets of Jesus, they will deliver "the testimony of Jesus" during the Great Tribulation.

YSIC,
MidnightCry

Where does the Bible say this?

 

[MidnightCry]

Where does the Bible say this?

Originally Posted by MidnightCry
As prophets of Jesus, they will deliver "the testimony of Jesus" during the Great Tribulation.

YSIC,
MidnightCry



Castaway57,


Well, we know that at the end of time all religious systems will have become corrupted. They are all false religions. That's why God selects and seals His own prophets to speak for Him during the Great Tribulation.

Here are some verses we can look at:

I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Revelation 1:9)

And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Revelation 12:17)

And I fell at his feet to worship him, But he said to me, "See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Revelation 19:10)

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held." (Revelation 6:9)

We are also told that 144,000 will suffer enormously because of their words. The 144,000 are also called "servants the prophets." What usually happens to God's prophets?

YSIC,
MidnightCry

 

[Castaway57]

Originally Posted by MidnightCry
As prophets of Jesus, they will deliver "the testimony of Jesus" during the Great Tribulation.

YSIC,
MidnightCry

The Bible does not call the 144000 prophets at all. There is not one text that tells us that anywhere in the Bible. nether does Rev 14:1-5 even call them servants. In fact, the direct textual evidence seems to tell us the opposite of what you are posting here:

Rev 14:3 And they sang a new song before the throne, and before the four Animals and the Elders: and no one was able to learn that song, except the hundred and forty and four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.

All that we are told here is that whoever the 144000 is; is that they sing this new song, "before the throne" meaning in heaven. Why? Because, as the text tells us; they were "redeemed from the earth." You are clearly off base here.