A Letter From An Atheist

[AV1611VET]

There's never been a better time to be alive.

Believe me, Frenchy, some will realize how true those words are.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Believe me, Frenchy, some will realize how true those words are.

Ok.

 

[AV1611VET]

Would you define "spiritual" so I can understand what you mean?

Pertaining to the spirit world -- that incorporeal part of the universe that houses God and angels and 1/3 of our makeup.

(But I'm sure what you meant was, you want to understand what it is you will refuse to understand. There's nothing like not knowing what it is you're not allowing yourself to understand, is there?)

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Pertaining to the spirit world -- that incorporeal part of the universe that houses God and angels and 1/3 of our makeup.

How would you demonstrate the existence of an "incorporeal part of the universe"?

 

[thaumaturgy]

Awww -- that's a shame, isn't it?

Yes it is. Unlike some people I can appreciate some of the great things about stuff I don't believe in.

In the last year and a half I've been sent to Europe almost 10 or 12 separate times to a variety of northern European cities for work. On those trips on the rare times I get a shot to play "tourist" I will make a bee-line for the nearest Medieval Cathedral. So absolutely astonishing! I love the history, I even love the symbolic displays and the clear depth of attachment to an idea that would drive people to make these amazing places. And I honor the centrality of that idea to the civilization and it's history.

There are many things about "faith" I think have value. That is why I would never want to "Deconvert" anyone. I know that faith offers many a source of comfort regardless of how empty I feel it is to me.

The history of Christianity here in the West is fascinating and has driven so many interesting things.

One of the great losses, in my opinion, is a sense of grandeur of the old cathedrals (replaced by store-front "churches" or pre-fab megachurches made to fall apart in a few years), and the loss of a sense of intellectualism and drive to "think" that were the hallmarks of the older Church.

For us, that 'intellectual depth and philosophical beauty' is replaced by the 'intellectual depth and philosophical beauty' of the observation of fulfilled prophecy, as we see these great monuments to the Christian faith become just 'empty warehouses' as faith gives way to 'seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.'

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got it. You are more interested in the "spirit". Fine. I get it. Honestly. The buildings are not as important as the message. But when the words evaporate what is left? What if the words are hollow?

But when the "mind" becomes an "empty warehouse" I think it's the ultimate desecration of the greatest "gift" any of us ever got from God (if he was real and giving out gifts, ya know).

Empty, hollow rhetoric about "spirit".

The highest form of this desecration is the "Speaking in Tongues" phenomenon in which adult people make random noises as if it has meaning.

At that point religious faith has lost all value. When random noises and gibberish count for knowledge.

 

[AV1611VET]

How would you demonstrate the existence of an "incorporeal part of the universe"?

Other than worship directed in the right direction, I'm not allowed to.

Some people beacon the spiritual part of the universe with such beacons as Ouija Boards, D&D, Pentagrams, spells, incantations, mantras, and a whole host of other practices.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Other than worship directed in the right direction, I'm not allowed to.

Some people beacon the spiritual part of the universe with such beacons as Ouija Boards, D&D, Pentagrams, spells, incantations, mantras, and a whole host of other practices.

Except there's absolutely no evidence suggesting these things exist. In that case, whenever I see an internet theologist use the word "spiritual," I'll just transpose "nonsense" into it's place.

 

[AV1611VET]

In the last year and a half I've been sent to Europe almost 10 or 12 separate times to a variety of northern European cities for work. On those trips on the rare times I get a shot to play "tourist" I will make a bee-line for the nearest Medieval Cathedral. So absolutely astonishing! I love the history, I even love the symbolic displays and the clear depth of attachment to an idea that would drive people to make these amazing places. And I honor the centrality of that idea to the civilization and it's history.

Let's quote Jesus here, shall we?

Mark 13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
Mark 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Matthew 6:29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

There are many things about "faith" I think have value.

Ya, ya -- empty buildings, beautiful nebulae, and gorgeous canyons.

As I have pointed out before, what you see as beauty, are actually testimonies of great faith once delivered to the saints, dead stars, and mighty cracks in the earth; all due to the [universal] effects of sin on God's creation.

 

[AV1611VET]

Except there's absolutely no evidence suggesting these things exist.

What's wrong?

Can' you guys build and calibrate a machine that can do this:

2 Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

What's wrong?

Can' you guys build and calibrate a machine that can do this:

2 Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

We have a better chance than you moving one of these:

 

[Naraoia]

God is self-existent.

What say we just skip the mess and say, "God is"?

Other than worship directed in the right direction, I'm not allowed to.

Some people beacon the spiritual part of the universe with such beacons as Ouija Boards, D&D, Pentagrams, spells, incantations, mantras, and a whole host of other practices.

D&D. Dear, misguided AV. It's a game. Only a game.

 

[AV1611VET]

We have a better chance than you moving one of these:

Un - huh -- let gold be found in one of those things, and we'll see who has the faith of a grain of mustard seed, won't we?

 

[AV1611VET]

D&D. Dear, misguided AV. It's a game. Only a game.

I knew, with that one, someone would pipe up --

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Un - huh -- let gold be found in one of those things, and we'll see who has the faith of a grain of mustard seed, won't we?

Yet that's not what King Jim says, does it?

 

[AV1611VET]

Yet that's not what King Jim says, does it?

Actually he does.

(You were refrencing your king [James H. McGraw of McGraw-Hill], weren't you?)

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Actually he does.

(You were refrencing your king [James H. McGraw of McGraw-Hill], weren't you?)

Swing and a miss!

 

[craftingtable]

However, what you've done is give us a nice picture of what an atheist is: somebody who doesn't care about his origins or future. That's perfectly reasonable as you evolved by accident from a bubbling fusion of chemicals eons ago. Why care; you're ultimately pointless.

Uh, what? Of course atheists care about their origins and future. It's just that, generally, atheists will actively seek scientific evidence for for certain claims(especially exceptional ones), whereas the general theist will be content with god said it, I believe it, that settles it.

 

[AV1611VET]

Swing and a miss!

I doubt it -- you guys are KJVO as well -- only a different James.

Don't you guys use your AV2011 bibles?

 

[thaumaturgy]

Dear Mathclub

I believe in the Big Bang, the age of the Earth and Universe, the evolutionary chain you describe. I also believe in God. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

That's the way many, many Christians that I have met are, and the way I felt when I used to be a Christian.

However, what you've done is give us a nice picture of what an atheist is: somebody who doesn't care about his origins or future.

That doesn't necessarily follow. Our "origins" make no difference to how we choose to act. Do I make my daily decisions on how to treat others because ~48 years ago two central Illinoisans decided to 'get it on' and make me? Ummm, no.

As for the "ultimate origin of everything" since no idea is superior to another (either you claim special knowledge without evidence or you throw your hands up and say "no one really knows) we are all making decisions based on either pure belief or acceptance of incomplete understanding.

That's perfectly reasonable as you evolved by accident from a bubbling fusion of chemicals eons ago.

Can I say that, chemically speaking, there aren't so many "accidents". Chemistry does have laws just like physics. Sure there's some statistical stuff built into it all, so something have to happen in sufficiently large numbers to make a chemical reaction go and some of that can be stochastically modeled, it is still not just a matter of pure random stuff.

Why care; you're ultimately pointless.

Well, I am, but not everyone is. And besides, why would an atheist necessarily think that he or she is "pointless" just because they don't feel the need for a supernatural being to explain how they got here?

Again, when I meet a stranger on the street I can choose to nod and say hi or I can choose to punch them in the face. Regardless of what I believe about where I come from or the existence of God, there's really no value to punching them in the face and in fact can lead to many bad things happening. So again, how are my daily decisions affected by my thoughts on ultimate origins.

Honestly, do you have to do that "calculus" every time you are faced with a choice?

If you see a person hurt on the side of the road do you have to think about God in order to decide whether to dial 9-11?

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

I doubt it -- you guys are KJVO as well -- only a different James.

Don't you guys use your AV2011 bibles?

Strrrrrrrrrrike two!