A Letter From An Atheist

[AV1611VET]

So I have a doctrine now?

Rep to you if you properly describe it.

QV please:

That's their new religion: scientism.

 

[Jazer]

Your breakfast was brought to you by science, technology, stable governance,

Excuse me, If I ate the breakfast that was brought to me by science I would be dead. I get my food from the Amish in the belief I will live longer then if I were to get my food from science. Will actually in all fairness it is science that told me NOT to eat salt. It is science that tells me NOT to eat processed food. So it is Science that is telling me if I want to live then do not eat the food brought to you by Science.

 

[Davian]

Excuse me, If I ate the breakfast that was brought to me by science I would be dead. I get my food from the Amish in the belief I will live longer then if I were to get my food from science. Will actually in all fairness it is science that told me NOT to eat salt. It is science that tells me NOT to eat processed food. So it is Science that is telling me if I want to live then do not eat the food brought to you by Science.

I cannot imagine any farmer not taking a scientific approach to running their farm if they hope to be successful at it. Do you think it is guesswork?

It is my understanding that the Amish are more about being self-sufficient that 'avoiding science'.

It may be that your beliefs are wrong.

"The Amish work to combine their knowledge of science, technology and experience to maintain their traditional way of farming"

Amish Farming


"What community has the highest per-capita use of solar energy in Ohio? None other than the Amish."

Amish Are Ultimate Early Adopters of Solar Energy | Wired Science | Wired.com


"Runoff from manure and synthetic fertilizers has polluted the Chesapeake Bay for years, reducing oxygen rates, killing fish and creating a dead zone that has persisted since the 1970s despite off-and-on cleanup efforts."

Amish Farming Draws Rare Government Scrutiny - NYTimes.com


"Amish farmers embrace GM crops"
BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | Amish farmers embrace GM crops

 

[Lord Emsworth]

[/B]

So I have a doctrine now?

Rep to you if you properly describe it.

Oh, come on. You could easily state that atheism is the doctrine that there (likely) is no God, or some such. IIRC, I have even seen some such statement somewhere in a dictionary.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Oh, come on. You could easily state that atheism is the doctrine that there (likely) is no God, or some such. IIRC, I have even seen some such statement somewhere in a dictionary.

Do accept that "scientism" is an atheist doctrine?

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Do accept that "scientism" is an atheist doctrine?

No, and why would I?

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

No, and why would I?

You shouldn't. I was asking AV what my atheist "doctrine" was, and he stated "scientism."

 

[Jazer]

I cannot imagine any farmer not taking a scientific approach to running their farm if they hope to be successful at it. Do you think it is guesswork?

They do not need science they follow the Bible. The Amish are actually anti education. They only get the 8 years of education required by the government. I am not saying corruption does not creap in. But I buy Amish food in the hope that the food is the least corrupted by Modern Science and the least GM.

Let me give you an example and see if we can shine a little bit of light into your darkness. Remember this is JUST one example of the wonders of modern science who tells us to avoid butter. Instead we are to eat their man made scientific creation called margarine. Now they are telling us that Margarine is actually worse for us then Butter. The Cleveland Clinic tells us we need a little bit of "know how" before we go shopping. I say eat food the way God designed it and stay away from man made food. Stay away from modern science because they will give you fake artifical food with no nutrician value. Food that will do you more harm then good.

Now if you do not grasp the concept then look at obesity rate, esp in the southern US. Also look at the soaring diabeties rate. Then tell me again about how wonderful science is when they are making people sick. Then after they make people sick they come along with pills to sell them that do not make them better, just takes their money from them.

"Margarine is by no means void of artery clogging fat. The controversy with margarine lies with its level of trans fat, largely a man-made fat. Trans fats are formed when hydrogen is added to vegetable oils, making the oil more solid and less likely to spoil. This process is called hydrogenation or partial hydrogenation and allows stick margarine to be firm at room temperature. Trans fats have been shown to increase the "bad" cholesterol (LDL) similarly to saturated fats, and they tend to lower the "healthy" (HDL) cholesterol when eaten in large amounts. What's more – trans fats may make our blood platelets stickier. While no standard intakes of trans fat have been set, one tablespoon of stick margarine packs a whopping 3 grams of trans fat and 2 grams saturated fat." http://my.clevelandclinic.org/heart/prevention/askdietician/margarine.aspx

 

[roach]

They do not need science they follow the Bible. The Amish are actually anti education. They only get the 8 years of education required by the government. I am not saying corruption does not creap in. But I buy Amish food in the hope that the food is the least corrupted by Modern Science and the least GM.

Let me give you an example and see if we can shine a little bit of light into your darkness. Remember this is JUST one example of the wonders of modern science who tells us to avoid butter. Instead we are to eat their man made scientific creation called margarine. Now they are telling us that Margarine is actually worse for us then Butter. The Cleveland Clinic tells us we need a little bit of "know how" before we go shopping. I say eat food the way God designed it and stay away from man made food. Stay away from modern science because they will give you fake artifical food with no nutrician value. Food that will do you more harm then good.

Now if you do not grasp the concept then look at obesity rate, esp in the southern US. Also look at the soaring diabeties rate. Then tell me again about how wonderful science is when they are making people sick. Then after they make people sick they come along with pills to sell them that do not make them better, just takes their money from them.

"Margarine is by no means void of artery clogging fat. The controversy with margarine lies with its level of trans fat, largely a man-made fat. Trans fats are formed when hydrogen is added to vegetable oils, making the oil more solid and less likely to spoil. This process is called hydrogenation or partial hydrogenation and allows stick margarine to be firm at room temperature. Trans fats have been shown to increase the "bad" cholesterol (LDL) similarly to saturated fats, and they tend to lower the "healthy" (HDL) cholesterol when eaten in large amounts. What's more – trans fats may make our blood platelets stickier. While no standard intakes of trans fat have been set, one tablespoon of stick margarine packs a whopping 3 grams of trans fat and 2 grams saturated fat." Butter vs. Margarine

A little paranoid, huh? There's good reason to be but you're being naive if you think the problems with processed or GM foods is a scientific one. You're also buying into the hype of 'natural' foods, but if payin extra for less is your thing...(there's the real conspiracy). Your real problem is with the economic system that places a higher value on productivity and consumer demand, which has a tenuous relationship to human well-being (I'd almost argue it has none), and not really with science. Your real problem is that science is used, not in the interest of human welfare, but in the interest of solving the problems of corporate needs. This is not the same as blaming science.

By your standard of reasoning, stoning people to death is god's fault because he made rocks.

And all that about obesity and diabetes and medicine.... You don't see where all that money goes? Where are all these billionaire scientists? Again, paranoia.

Butter vs Margarine. Butter, hands down.

 

[Jazer]

A little paranoid, huh?

I am paranoid because I do not want to eat artificial food I want real food.
Or I am paranoid because I follow the suggestions of my doctor/nurse?

Where are all these billionaire scientists?

Everyone keeps saying that science gave us the computer. So I guess you must be talking about people like Bill Gates and Steven Jobs. Along with all of their cohorts. Except that Steven Jobs just died because of his lack of faith in science.

 

[Davian]

They do not need science they follow the Bible. The Amish are actually anti education. They only get the 8 years of education required by the government. I am not saying corruption does not creap in. But I buy Amish food in the hope that the food is the least corrupted by Modern Science and the least GM.

You missed this part:

BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | Amish farmers embrace GM crops

 

[Naraoia]

I am paranoid because I do not want to eat artificial food I want real food.

This is about drugs, not food, but it's a nice exposure of the stupidity of the naturalistic fallacy.

Artificial =/= bad any more than natural = good.

 

[Jazer]

You missed this part:BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | Amish farmers embrace GM crops

I was on the old computer that needs the sound fixed.

What point are you trying to make? Most of the GM corn is being grown to be used for syrup to be used in the soda. I try to stay away from that. I get sugar from things like Honey, Maple Syrup or juice from fruit. It would perhaps be better to use the corn for a bio fuel to run your car on. But remember we are still having a lot of problems with dead zones in the great lakes and in the oceans. We have a lot of run off from all those chemicals they want to use and that is an environmental concern. Did you ever see the sick looking Hoki fish that McDonalds is feeding people these days?

 

[Naraoia]

I was on the old computer that needs the sound fixed.

What point are you trying to make? Most of the GM corn is being grown to be used for syrup to be used in the soda. I try to stay away from that. I get sugar from things like Honey, Maple Syrup or juice from fruit. It would perhaps be better to use the corn for a bio fuel to run your car on. But remember we are still having a lot of problems with dead zones in the great lakes and in the oceans. We have a lot of run off from all those chemicals they want to use and that is an environmental concern. Did you ever see the sick looking Hoki fish that McDonalds is feeding people these days?

You do know that one of the main uses of GM is to reduce the amount of chemicals you have to use. Insect-resistant plant = less need for insecticide...

 

[Jazer]

it's a nice exposure of the stupidity of the naturalistic fallacy.

Artificial =/= bad any more than natural = good.

You have GOT to be kidding me. I thought you tried to pass yourself off as an expert on this stuff. But trying to give you the benefit of the doubt I will explain this to you. You must know that artificial flavors are simply chemical mixtures that mimic a natural flavor in some way. Lets take blueberries for example. Artificial flavor mimics the natural flavor from natural blueberries. But they still put fat and sugar, perhaps GM corn syrup in your blueberry muffin. So you do not get the natural sugar from the berry, you get more corn syrup from a grain.

Do you know that sugar and fat can be harmful for you? Do you know that your better off to eat real berries and not artificial flavor? Even if it does no harm what good does artificial flavor do for you? It tricks you into thinking you have eaten food when you have not eaten food at all. So you get fat eating artificial flavor with a mixed up and confused body thinking that your eating real food when the food is not real at all.

Then to add insult to injury they put a photo on the container of REAL BLUEBERRIES. Perhaps they will use a name like Wild, to make you think your getting real food and not artificial food. I have been looking for some dried blueberries. I think that Bob's Red Mill sells them. There are a few mixes you can get that has real blueberry's in syrup.

Actually I just found a blog on this so I do not have to explain it anymore.

"Blueberries can help you maintain your memory. Consumption and a half liters of antioxidant-rich fruit juice is stated to prevent memory loss. Research shows that this fruit helps sharpen memory. This effect can still be felt even after a decline in memory. Memory tests showed that the retirees have increased retention by 40 percent after drinking blueberry juice 0.56 liters a day for 12 weeks. This fruit, according to the researchers, is an easy and delicious way to maintain youth in the brain."

http://www.al7alem.com/blueberries-prevent-alzheimer/

Fake Blueberries Often Masquerade As Real Fruit : Shots - Health Blog : NPR

Real Vs Imitation blueberries, artificially flavored
Kosher dairy,Muffin mix,3 minutes pouch To oven,just add water

 

[Jazer]

You do know that one of the main uses of GM is to reduce the amount of chemicals you have to use. Insect-resistant plant = less need for insecticide...

"GM herbicide tolerant crops allow farmers to apply ‘broad spectrum’ weedkillers to their field,
which kill all other plants. There is concern that this will continue the decline of farmland
wildlife because the use of these GM crops could lead to the removal of weeds from all crops
in the normal arable rotation. This will reduce the food supply for insects and bird. These
concerns led English Nature to state in 1998 that the “untested introduction of GM crops
could be the final blow for such species as the skylark, corn bunting and the linnet, as the
seeds an insects on which they feed disappear.”

15 “Government Wildlife Advisor urges caution on Genetically Modified Organisms – The New Agricultural Revolution.” English Nature News Release. 8 July 1998. 16 “GM farming code will not save wildlife”. The Daily Telegraph 22nd May 1999 p1. http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/briefings/gm_crops_food.pdf

 

[Naraoia]

You have GOT to be kidding me. I thought you tried to pass yourself off as an expert on this stuff.

No, not at all. In fact, it is quite far from my main interests in biology, which involve various bits and bobs about evolution. But that doesn't make appeal to nature any less of a fallacy. Or any less stupid.

But trying to give you the benefit of the doubt I will explain this to you. You must know that artificial flavors are simply chemical mixtures that mimic a natural flavor in some way.

Yes, and that doesn't automatically make them bad.

Lets take blueberries for example. Artificial flavor mimics the natural flavor from natural blueberries. But they still put fat and sugar, perhaps GM corn syrup in your blueberry muffin. So you do not get the natural sugar from the berry, you get more corn syrup from a grain.

Do you know that sugar and fat can be harmful for you?

Anything can be harmful for you if you eat too much of it.

Do you know that your better off to eat real berries and not artificial flavor?

Often, yes. But you were making a generalisation about "real" versus "artificial" food that simply does not hold.

Even if it does no harm what good does artificial flavor do for you? It tricks you into thinking you have eaten food when you have not eaten food at all.

As if that were a bad thing considering America's average fat content

By the way, do you have any citations to back up that claim about tricking the body? It doesn't sound self-evident at all.

So you get fat eating artificial flavor with a mixed up and confused body thinking that your eating real food when the food is not real at all.

Then to add insult to injury they put a photo on the container of REAL BLUEBERRIES. Perhaps they will use a name like Wild, to make you think your getting real food and not artificial food. I have been looking for some dried blueberries. I think that Bob's Red Mill sells them. There are a few mixes you can get that has real blueberry's in syrup.

Oh my, stop this tirade on fake blueberries. It is irrelevant to the general point.

Fine, fake blueberries are not great.

On the other hand, compare sweetening a glass of lemonade with a teaspoon (a few grams) of sugar versus achieving the same level of sweetness with (say) 20 mg of aspartame. Count all the ways in which too much sugar is bad for you. Those are all the ways in which an artificial sweetener is better.

(FWIW, orange juice has just as much sugar in it as non-diet Coke [Yes, I checked]. And it's probably not much less acidic.)

We can throw isolated examples at each other all day long. The point is that you can't just assume that anything natural is automatically good. Some natural foods may be better than the artificial alternatives. And some are not. To actually find the healthiest options, you've got to use critical thinking rather than rely on broad generalisations.

 

[Naraoia]

"
GM herbicide tolerant crops allow farmers to apply ‘broad spectrum’ weedkillers to their field,
which kill all other plants. There is concern that this will continue the decline of farmland
wildlife because the use of these GM crops could lead to the removal of weeds from all crops
in the normal arable rotation. This will reduce the food supply for insects and bird"

http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/briefings/gm_crops_food.pdf

I did say "one of"...

 

[Tracy103]

I TOTALLY believe in the big-bang theory!!!! God spoke and it resounded a big bang!!!! Woot, Woot...praise God, Son and Holy Spirit!!! You make ALL things good!!!

 

[Jazer]

Fine, fake blueberries are not great.

Correct the studies show there is a benefit to eating real food instead of fake food. Esp blueberries where the studies show real health benefits from eating real blueberries. Just like the studies show real benefits when you drink real cranberry juice. As a student it has been shown that Blueberries can improve your memory, so I would be trying to get all the natural real blueberries I can and avoiding the fake stuff that has no benefit at all for us to consume them.

I have used blueberry syrup in my bread machine to activate the yeast to raise the bread. Everything works fine, but it is a bit expensive. Twice the cost of artificial Imitation blueberry syrup. Actually I gave that bread to my wife and they had it for lunch at work the next day.