A Knowing-Hope!

[Clare73]

From Genesis through Revelation the bible has to do with justice vs injustice, righteousness vs unrighteousness, good vs evil-and man choosing between the two. The Old Covenant ultimately teaches that we cannot choose to be good, and make that happen on our own as if that’s all there is to it. Man must choose God first of all, he must enter the communion with Him that man was made for and that Adam effectively dismissed and scorned. As man comes to truly know, and then, most importantly, to love God, he beings to authentically obey, he begins to worship in Spirit and truth, he enters the state of righteousness or justice that he was created for.

If God were suddenly to simply begin to regenerate people, instead of appealing to and drawing and enabling a person, by grace, to that state, then the entire bible is rendered purposeless. If, IOW, man’s disposition is simply so changed by God that man can only will rightly now, then God may as well have done that to begin with in Eden. All the evil, sin, victimization, and abuse that man has experienced and suffered down through the centuries has no purpose if not to convince us that we need something more than ourselves in order to have real peace and order and happiness in our existence.

It’s only if man has a real choice, of his own, separate from the will of God that our faith makes any sense. It’s only if man can therefore choose to remain apart from God, to not open the door when He knocks, that hell makes any real sense. Without that kind of radical freedom man is not a morally responsible being, and therefore not blameworthy for wrong choices. But to choose God, to open the door when He knocks, to respond in faith is a matter of justice, of doing the right thing. Of loving Him because He first loved us, of choosing the love that overcomes the evil in this universe. Of now becoming part of the answer instead of the problem. That’s what makes man a holy being-as he opts for the holiness that only comes from God, on the basis of faith (Phil 3:9).

We cannot live and move and have our being apart from God. And yet we can still remain apart from Him-eternally if we prefer.

The NT presents "choosing God" as faith in Jesus Christ and his atoning work (blood, Romans 3:25) for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," declared righteous by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ that God may fellowship with us.

And the NT presents faith as a gift (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Acts 13:48, Acts 18:27; Romans 12:3).

 

[fhansen]

The NT presents "choosing God" as faith in Jesus Christ and his atoning work (blood, Romans 3:25) for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," declared righteous by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ that God may fellowship with us.

Yes, but more than that. It's to become new creations, equipped with the righteousnss that enables us to remain free from the slavery of sin, to overcome it, to realize the holiness that results in eternal life.

And the NT presents faith as a gift (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Acts 13:48, Acts 18:27; Romans 12:3).

Both a gift, and a choice, to embrace and act upon the gift, to open the door-and continuously keep it open throughout our lives.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, but more than that. It's to become new creations, equipped with the righteousnss that enables us to remain free from the slavery of sin, to overcome it, to realize the holiness that results in eternal life.

I'm not addressing more than that, I am addressing "choosing" God. . .nothing more. . .as meaning faith in Jesus Christ and his atoning. . .etc., which is a gift.

 

[fhansen]

I'm not addressing more than that, I am addressing "choosing" God. . .nothing more. . .as meaning faith in Jesus Christ and his atoning. . .etc., which is a gift.

And a choice. We can return to unbelief, we can reject the heavenly gift, we can go back to preferring ourselves, our way, the flesh, to God.

As Augustine once said,
"He who created you without your consent does not save you without your consent."

Our job is to not say "no", even as we certainly need Him just to be able us muster a "yes".

 

[Clare73]

And a choice.

No more than the gift of human life is a choice, which gift I had no power to refuse.

The NT presents faith as a gift (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Acts 13:48, Acts 18:27; Romans 12:3).

 

[fhansen]

No more than the gift of human life is a choice, which gift I had no power to refuse.

Existence we have no choice over. Existence with God, beginning in Eden, we have a choice over.

The story of the bible is the story of God patiently cultivating and educating and steering man around, over centuries, to finally know and to make the right choice, beginning with the wrong choice.

 

[Clare73]

Existence we have no choice over.
Existence with God, beginning in Eden, we have a choice over.

Not according to Scripture.

You cannot choose to be born again, that is completely the choice and work of the Holy Spirit, who like
the wind which blows wherever it pleases, you cannot tell where it comes from or where it goes.
So it is with everyone born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)
You have no more to do with your spiritual birth than you do with the wind, or with your natural birth.

The natural/physical order is patterned on the spiritual order.

 

[fhansen]

Not according to Scripture.

You cannot choose to be born again, that is completely the choice and work of the Holy Spirit, who like the wind which blows wherever it pleases, you cannot tell where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)
You have no more to do with your spiritual birth than you did with the wind or your natural birth.

THe natural/physical order is patterned on the spiritual order.

Oh, in that case we don't really need to even hear the Word then-since it would place no onus upon us anyway, no obligation, and therefore no reason to hear of the admonishments, the instructions, the warnings, encouragements etc to do those things that gain eternal life as we're now enabled by our fellowship with God.

 

[Clare73]

Oh, in that case we don't really need to even hear the Word then-since it would place no onus upon us anyway, no obligation, and therefore no reason to hear of the admonishments, the instructions, the warnings, encouragements etc to do those things that gain eternal life as we're now enabled by our fellowship with God.

"That case" being Jesus' teaching, which does not agree with your theology, so you will disagree with Jesus instead of your theology?

 

[fhansen]

"That case" being Jesus' teaching, which does not agree with your theology, you have to disagree with Jesus?

Um, no, you disagree-with Scripture, the early churches, and the ECFs. The "case" is all-at once-regeneration, with no possibility of loss of that status and without any consent of man.

 

[Clare73]

Not according to Scripture.

You cannot choose to be born again, that is completely the choice and work of the Holy Spirit, who like "the wind which blows wherever it pleases, you cannot tell where it comes from or where it goes.
So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." (John 3:8)

You have no more to do with your spiritual birth than you do with the wind, or with your natural birth.

The natural/physical order is patterned on the spiritual order.

Um, no, you disagree-with Scripture, the early churches, and the ECFs. The "case" is all-at once-regeneration, with no possibility of loss of that status and without any consent of man.

Uh. . .that is Scripture.

Please present the Scriptures to which you are referring.

 

[fhansen]

Uh. . .that is Scripture.

Please present the Scriptures to which you are referring.

Uh...that in no way affirms that everyone who thinks they're born of the Spirit is. Or that we don't participate by consenting, and continue to participate by continuing to consent-of our own volition to the extent we can with the help of grace but not by having our dispositions changed all at once first. And I've already lsited many Scripture passages but can do more if you wish.

REMAINING IN HIM

I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned. John 15:5-6

“You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.” Rom 11:19-22

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame." Heb 6:4-6

"If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume all adversaries. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think one deserves to be punished who has trampled on the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Heb 10:26-31

If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:20-22

STRIVING, PERSEVERING

Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. Matt 24:12-13

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. rothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. Phil 3:10-14

Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. James 1:12

For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. Heb 10:36

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us Heb 12:1

And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up. Gal 6:9

If we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; 2 Tim 2:12

VIGILANCE

“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour. Matt 25:13

“Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.” Matthew 26:41

Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears. Acts 20:31

Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. 1 Cor10:12

Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. 1 Cor 16:13

Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 1 Pet 5:8

Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. Rev 3:2

None of this is guaranteed, or it wouldn't need to even be said.

 

[Clare73]

Uh...that in no way affirms that everyone who thinks they're born of the Spirit is.

Straw man. . .