"A HUMAN LIFE BEGINNING AT CONCEPTION"

[redleghunter]

Care to discuss this without invoking the NAZIs in your first response?

Haven't you heard Godwin's Law was suspended by the American Left?

Godwin’s Law Is Hereby Suspended Until Further Notice | The Huffington Post

 

[SkyWriting]

1. "A human life beginning at conception," is NOT the same thing as "human life beginning at conception."
"Human life" means alive human cells; "a human life" means a person, a human being.

2. There is human life at conception.
There are alive cells that are human cells, therefore there is "human life."

3. There is no NEW appearance of life at conception, NO NEW LIFE, so the "beginning" is not of life, as in "new human life." ALL the life found at conception is the very life that the ALIVE SPERM and ALIVE OVA brought together in the unity that is the zygote. Life continues from sperm and egg to fetus, the same life contributed by the alive cells from the alove woman (I like that!) to the alove man (I like that!). [With "alove" here I mean "alive," of course.]

I would ask everyone interested in abortion to consider these three claims, and especially how is someone to correctly understand what "A HUMAN LIFE BEGINNING AT CONCEPTION" means?
Hint: at conception what will be (maybe!) a human being is "begun." (New genetics.)
That something is begun (to be made) does not mean the thing to be, to be made, THEN EXISTS as though it were already made.

Is there anything in the above claims that strikes one as untrue, and if so, why?

Human life begins with God and is not connected with conception.
Both Adam and Eve were considered alive and human.
So the Bible disputes your definition of human life.
Your statements are not supported by scripture in other places as well.

 

[AJTruth]

1. "A human life beginning at conception," is NOT the same thing as "human life beginning at conception."
"Human life" means alive human cells; "a human life" means a person, a human being.

2. There is human life at conception.
There are alive cells that are human cells, therefore there is "human life."

3. There is no NEW appearance of life at conception, NO NEW LIFE, so the "beginning" is not of life, as in "new human life." ALL the life found at conception is the very life that the ALIVE SPERM and ALIVE OVA brought together in the unity that is the zygote. Life continues from sperm and egg to fetus, the same life contributed by the alive cells from the alove woman (I like that!) to the alove man (I like that!). [With "alove" here I mean "alive," of course.]

I would ask everyone interested in abortion to consider these three claims, and especially how is someone to correctly understand what "A HUMAN LIFE BEGINNING AT CONCEPTION" means?
Hint: at conception what will be (maybe!) a human being is "begun." (New genetics.)
That something is begun (to be made) does not mean the thing to be, to be made, THEN EXISTS as though it were already made.

Is there anything in the above claims that strikes one as untrue, and if so, why?

The Smithsonian lists the Bible as the most accurate ancient historical record.

Scripture Declares:

A woman who is "with child" has another living soul "with" her. As she progresses she becomes "great with child" (Luke 2:5), until she is "ready to be delivered" (Revelation 12:4; see also 1 Samuel 4:19; Isaiah 26:17).

Luke 2:5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
(BEING GREAT WITH CHILD. """WITH CHILD"""!)

Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
(THE UNBORN BABE LEAPED WITH JOY IN HER WOMB)

1 Samuel 4:19 His daughter in law, Phinehas' wife, """was with child, near to be delivered""": and when she heard the tidings that the ark of God was taken, and that her father in law and her husband were dead, she bowed herself and travailed; for her pains came upon her.
(WAS WITH CHILD NOT YET BORN. """WAS WITH CHILD""")

Isaiah 26:17 As """a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery""", is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.
(BEFORE BIRTH, SCRIPTURE DECLARES, THE WOMAN IS WITH CHILD. """WITH CHILD""")

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(HERE THE UNBORN IS CALLED A CHILD. THE DRAGON IS WAITING FOR THE """CHILD""" TO BE BORN)

Sperm and ovum are "living cells" prior to fertilization. Its at the point of contact between the two. That a life begins.

Contact creates a living soul, at the moment, the two living cells meet. The sperm (seed) dies & a new life begins

This process is known as fertilization (conception).

Though the life doesn't have any form yet. Just, leave it alone and it becomes a person.

Leave the fetus alone and it will live. So, if you disrupt the life cycle. And remove the fetus at anytime. You kill it! NUFF SAID!

 

[John 1720]

Personhood is the entire issue, AFAIC. No one suggests that a foetus isn't alive.

Medical terms aside people know it's a baby.
When was the last time you asked a pregnant woman, "So how are you and your fetus doing."
Do you hear how ridiculous that sounds?

Of course there may be some that say that but we would call them statistical outliers.

 

[Armoured]

Medical terms aside people know it's a baby.
When was the last time you asked a pregnant woman, "So how are you and your fetus doing."
Do you hear how ridiculous that sounds?

Of course there may be some that say that but we would call them statistical outliers.

So your basic point is "everyone knows"?

 

[Armoured]

The Smithsonian lists the Bible as the most accurate ancient historical record.

[Citation Needed]

 

[Biblewriter]

You get the progression of human reproduction, and THE FACT LIFE DOES NOT BEGIN anywhere, correct!

But your "new individual" is suspect. New individual what?
Since you are insisting it occurs at conception, you must be referring to what exists there - namely the single-cell union of ovum and sperm, the continuation of life. But this is ALMOST NOTHING. Invisible to the naked eye, it is certainly not a person.
It is a new individual cell, ONE SINGLE CELL that is indeed individual or unique in that it has distinctly different genetics than the actual human body it exists within.
It is NO flesh and blood even. NONE AT ALL. Nothing more than "information," (something like a map) that will be used in the construction of a new human being. (Please note that before something is constructed, it is NOT, it does NOT EXIST, as the thing that is being constructed, that is, as though it exists before it is created.)

Your own statement revels the bankruptcy of your argument. You equate "ALMOST NOTHING" with NOTHING. and you falsely claim that the "ALMOST NOTHING," "Is certainly not a person." But you neglect that it is alive, and is 100% human.

 

[Armoured]

But you neglect that it is alive, and is 100% human.

So?

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

Human life begins with God and is not connected with conception.
Both Adam and Eve were considered alive and human.
So the Bible disputes your definition of human life.
Your statements are not supported by scripture in other places as well.

Your first two statements are true - we know the story of Adam and Eve and how GOD GAVE THEM THE BREATH OF LIFE.

Look to "Biblewriter's" post #27 to see how life begun with God and from God continues.

Where and how do you suppose the Bible disputes my definition of human life, and what is that definition in your view?

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

Your own statement revels the bankruptcy of your argument. You equate "ALMOST NOTHING" with NOTHING. and you falsely claim that the "ALMOST NOTHING," "Is certainly not a person." But you neglect that it is alive, and is 100% human.

Perhaps you neglect that a cancer within a human being is alive and 100% human. It too consists of human cells, so what you say proves nothing.

Ok, "nothing" is not "almost nothing," it is a bit of an exaggeration. But the supposed "human" is so much nothing it is not even visible to the naked eye. It is nothing like human beings as you and I know them, it is nothing like a real human animal.

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

The Smithsonian lists the Bible as the most accurate ancient historical record.

Scripture Declares:

A woman who is "with child" has another living soul "with" her. As she progresses she becomes "great with child" (Luke 2:5), until she is "ready to be delivered" (Revelation 12:4; see also 1 Samuel 4:19; Isaiah 26:17).

Luke 2:5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
(BEING GREAT WITH CHILD. """WITH CHILD"""!)

Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
(THE UNBORN BABE LEAPED WITH JOY IN HER WOMB)

1 Samuel 4:19 His daughter in law, Phinehas' wife, """was with child, near to be delivered""": and when she heard the tidings that the ark of God was taken, and that her father in law and her husband were dead, she bowed herself and travailed; for her pains came upon her.
(WAS WITH CHILD NOT YET BORN. """WAS WITH CHILD""")

Isaiah 26:17 As """a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery""", is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.
(BEFORE BIRTH, SCRIPTURE DECLARES, THE WOMAN IS WITH CHILD. """WITH CHILD""")

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(HERE THE UNBORN IS CALLED A CHILD. THE DRAGON IS WAITING FOR THE """CHILD""" TO BE BORN)

Sperm and ovum are "living cells" prior to fertilization. Its at the point of contact between the two. That a life begins.

Contact creates a living soul, at the moment, the two living cells meet. The sperm (seed) dies & a new life begins

This process is known as fertilization (conception).

Though the life doesn't have any form yet. Just, leave it alone and it becomes a person.

Leave the fetus alone and it will live. So, if you disrupt the life cycle. And remove the fetus at anytime. You kill it! NUFF SAID!

The next post after yours, by John, #48, reveals WHY it is called "a child" and many speak of "with child." It sounds better than, "How is your fetus doing?," which more accurately reflects the facts of the matter without the false suggestion that it is actually a child. It is ANTICIPATED, and at that stage "everyone knows" she is "going to have a baby." (Even that may not be true.) Basically means "she's pregnant."

"Just leave it alone [after conception] and it becomes a person." There is much truth in the "becomes," which definitely indicates it is not yet what many want it to be.
But the claim is still about half false; many fertilized eggs do NOT become persons (when "left alone"), perhaps even a majority are sloughed off (God naturally aborting, some might say).

Oh, and on your first claim of what "Scripture Declares," none of your references say anything about a soul or "living soul."

 

[CrystalDragon]

I just thought of something.

People say that aborted babies or children who die young go to heaven. But people also say that we're tainted with original sin and thus all deserve to go to hell (which I think is a horrible position to take but I digress). You can't have it both ways.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

All just your fabrication, far as I can tell. You want there to be something at conception to make the fetus and pre-fetus into a person, so you come up with the idea IT MUST HAVE A SOUL. I don't think you get this from either biology or Scriptures.

Why would a zygote need a soul to "drive what is materially forming" any more than one is needed in the production of sperm, say? What you call "spirit" here, is that anything more than the LIFE OF THE CELLS, and without life they die. Sort of what that death you point to in your last sentence is, the lack of life. What else is there except the cells and life - you can point to NOTHING. Sheer imagining!

I certainly would not deny that human beings have spirit and soul, but to concoct something supposedly present at conception in order to try to suggest there is a human being there is sheer conjecture and nothing of reality.

So the idea that we have things in our nature (that we are born with) which we cannot possibly have "learned" by observation, tells us where is that stored in "cells"?

 

[John 1720]

So your basic point is "everyone knows"?

I will be glad to answer your question if you answer mine, which you did not. When inquiring of a mother to be do you hear people say, "So how are you and the "baby" doing?" or "So how are you and the 'fetus' doing?"

 

[Deadworm]

Douglas: ""People who have been to heaven" may be somebody's vivid imagination or dreaming. It seems NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES yield many "experiences," which would seem to be hallucinations of one form or another."

This claim is decisively refuted by the Colton Burpo case and cases like it. Colton (age 4) encounters his sister in Paradise, who embraces him and tells him she died in "her Mommy's tummy." Colton knew nothing about a dead sister and had not been told about this miscarriage. This awesome verification of Colton's NDE refutes your cavalier dismissal of such NDE experiences as "hallucinations."

Also, your posts overlook the relevance of both (1) the standard Judeo-Christian doctrine of the soul's preexistence from the biblical era and (2) the occasional splitting of the zygote to produce identical twins.

 

[SkyWriting]

Your first two statements are true - we know the story of Adam and Eve and how GOD GAVE THEM THE BREATH OF LIFE.
Look to "Biblewriter's" post #27 to see how life begun with God and from God continues.
Where and how do you suppose the Bible disputes my definition of human life, and what is that definition in your view?

Human life begins long before conception
and your view that it begins at conception
does not agree with scripture.
If a baby stops breathing, it does not die.
Death only follows knowledge of the law
and rejection of the Holy Spirit.

 

[redleghunter]

I just thought of something.

People say that aborted babies or children who die young go to heaven. But people also say that we're tainted with original sin and thus all deserve to go to hell (which I think is a horrible position to take but I digress). You can't have it both ways.

Different subject worthy for a different thread.

 

[John 1720]

The Smithsonian lists the Bible as the most accurate ancient historical record.

bb
Yes there was an open letter from the Smithsonian Department of Anthropology; not that we need to rely on the Smithsonian as a rubber stamp. Scientists come to differing opinions about a great many things but I do believe archeology has verified many claims .

“On the other hand, much of the Bible, in particular the historical books of the old testament, are as accurate historical documents as any that we have from antiquity and are in fact more accurate than many of the Egyptian, Mesopotamian, or Greek histories. These Biblical records can be and are used as are other ancient documents in archeological work. For the most part, historical events described took place and the peoples cited really existed. This is not to say … that every event as reported in the historical books happened exactly as stated.”

Scripture Declares:

A woman who is "with child" has another living soul "with" her. As she progresses she becomes "great with child" (Luke 2:5), until she is "ready to be delivered" (Revelation 12:4; see also 1 Samuel 4:19; Isaiah 26:17).

Luke 2:5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
(BEING GREAT WITH CHILD. """WITH CHILD"""!)

Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
(THE UNBORN BABE LEAPED WITH JOY IN HER WOMB)

1 Samuel 4:19 His daughter in law, Phinehas' wife, """was with child, near to be delivered""": and when she heard the tidings that the ark of God was taken, and that her father in law and her husband were dead, she bowed herself and travailed; for her pains came upon her.
(WAS WITH CHILD NOT YET BORN. """WAS WITH CHILD""")

Isaiah 26:17 As """a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery""", is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.
(BEFORE BIRTH, SCRIPTURE DECLARES, THE WOMAN IS WITH CHILD. """WITH CHILD""")

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(HERE THE UNBORN IS CALLED A CHILD. THE DRAGON IS WAITING FOR THE """CHILD""" TO BE BORN)

Sperm and ovum are "living cells" prior to fertilization. Its at the point of contact between the two. That a life begins.

Contact creates a living soul, at the moment, the two living cells meet. The sperm (seed) dies & a new life begins

This process is known as fertilization (conception).

Though the life doesn't have any form yet. Just, leave it alone and it becomes a person.

Leave the fetus alone and it will live. So, if you disrupt the life cycle. And remove the fetus at anytime. You kill it! NUFF SAID!

Hi AJ,
Thanks. Other helpful Biblical quotes are:
The twin ‘fetus’ in Rebekah’s womb were living souls known by the Lord who planned to make two nations out of them.
Genesis 25:21-24

• Now Isaac pleaded with the LORD for his wife, because she was barren; and the LORD granted his plea, and Rebekah his wife conceived. But the children struggled together within her; and she said, "If all is well, why am I like this?" So she went to inquire of the LORD.And the LORD said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, and the older shall serve the younger.” So when her days were fulfilled for her to give birth, indeed there were twins in her womb.

God fashions us in the womb.

• Job 31:15 Did not He who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same One fashion us in the womb?

• Isa 66:9 Shall I bring to the time of birth, and not cause delivery?” says the LORD.

• Ecc 11:5 As you do not know what is the way of the wind, or how the bones grow in the womb of her who is with child,
  So you do not know the works of God who makes everything.

God is in the formation process of the child our frame is known to God even in the womb though not fully formed

• Psa 139:13-17 For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. My frame was not hidden from You, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. and in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them. How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How great is the sum of them!
• Isa 44:2 Thus says the LORD who made you and formed you from the womb, who will help you:
• ‘Fear not, O Jacob My servant; aformed and chosen from the womb and you, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen
• Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb:
• “I am the LORD, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;
• Isa 48:8 Surely you did not hear, surely you did not know; Surely from long ago your ear was not opened.
• For I knew that you would deal very treacherously, and were called a transgressor from the womb.

• Isa 49:1 “Listen, O coastlands, to Me, and take heed, you peoples from afar! The LORD has called Me from the womb; From the matrix of My mother He has made mention of My name.

• Isa 49:5 “And now the LORD says, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, to bring Jacob back to Him, So that Israel is gathered to Him for I shall be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and My God shall be My strength “Shall I who cause delivery shut up the womb?” says your God.
• Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”
• Hos 12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and in his strength he struggled with God.
• Luk 1:15 “For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.

Babies in the womb are not only cognizant of their existence but joy in their call from God

• Luke 1:41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! “For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

There is no doubt God recognizes the child in the womb from a Scriptural point of view.

In Christ, John 1720


.

 

[REBEL CRUSADER]

If it has neurons bouncing around in it's head, and blood pumping through it's heart, it's a living soul.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

at conception what will be (maybe!) a human being is "begun."

what else will this sperm and egg turn into other than a human being?

what will cease it's development from becoming a human being?