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Featured "A HUMAN LIFE BEGINNING AT CONCEPTION"

Discussion in 'Debates on Abortion' started by Douglas Hendrickson, Mar 9, 2017.

  1. Douglas Hendrickson

    Douglas Hendrickson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    1. "A human life beginning at conception," is NOT the same thing as "human life beginning at conception."
    "Human life" means alive human cells; "a human life" means a person, a human being.

    2. There is human life at conception.
    There are alive cells that are human cells, therefore there is "human life."

    3. There is no NEW appearance of life at conception, NO NEW LIFE, so the "beginning" is not of life, as in "new human life." ALL the life found at conception is the very life that the ALIVE SPERM and ALIVE OVA brought together in the unity that is the zygote. Life continues from sperm and egg to fetus, the same life contributed by the alive cells from the alove woman (I like that!) to the alove man (I like that!). [With "alove" here I mean "alive," of course.]

    I would ask everyone interested in abortion to consider these three claims, and especially how is someone to correctly understand what "A HUMAN LIFE BEGINNING AT CONCEPTION" means?
    Hint: at conception what will be (maybe!) a human being is "begun." (New genetics.)
    That something is begun (to be made) does not mean the thing to be, to be made, THEN EXISTS as though it were already made.

    Is there anything in the above claims that strikes one as untrue, and if so, why?
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2017
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  2. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Life begins at conception because if there is a miscarriage that child will still go to heaven and be waiting for us when we get there.
     
  3. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I get it from Biology. The very first cell has all the information needed for life. The cells divide and multiply and every cell in our body has all the information we need for life. Also we have the testimony of people that have been to Heaven and seen unborn brothers or sisters there. We have a nephew that was an identical twin only his brother died before he was born. We tell him that he has a brother that he will see when he goes to Heaven.
     
  4. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes you are talking about the nĕshamah: The breath of life.

    Gen 2:7

    And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath H5397 of life; and man became a living soul.


    Genesis Chapter 1 (KJV)
     
  5. CodyFaith

    CodyFaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    nvm.
     
  6. Armoured

    Armoured So is America great again yet? Supporter

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    Personhood is the entire issue, AFAIC. No one suggests that a foetus isn't alive.
     
  7. Douglas Hendrickson

    Douglas Hendrickson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Quite right!

    And your "personhood" is exactly the same as what I call "a human being," right?
    (Did you notice the dictionary doesn't like "personhood"?)

    So you can reflect on "PERSONHOOD BEGINNING AT CONCEPTION." Now it is the beginning of personhood, an early point. Well actually now that I think of it, if personhood is the union of sperm and egg, then those being earlier must be more of a beginning.
    In other words, would you say personhood begins when sperm and egg are produced? That is THE BEGINNING of the entire process, is it not?
     
  8. SPF

    SPF Well-Known Member

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    It would be much easier if you would just adopt the language that most everyone uses. Meaning, When a sperm manages to fertilize and egg, a new life is created. This is undeniable scientific/medical fact. The newly created life is a human being. It is small, underdeveloped, but it is still a human being. This honestly is no longer up for debate. The debate comes in because a distinction is made between a human being and a human person.

    Correct. a newly formed human life is created at conception.

    What needs to be shown, and I've never seen someone adequately do so, is that this distinction between a human being and a human person is real and not arbitrary.
     
  9. SPF

    SPF Well-Known Member

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    If there is no distinction between a human being and a human person then your entire position fails. We know scientifically that a new human being is created at the moment of conception.

    Dr. Jerome LeJeune, professor of genetics at the University of Descartes in Paris, was the discoverer of the chromosome pattern of Down syndrome. He testified to the Judiciary Subcommittee, “after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being.” He stated that this “is no longer a matter of taste or opinion,” and “not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence.” He added, “Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception.”

    Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard University Medical School: “It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive…. It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception…. Our laws, one function of which is to help preserve the lives of our people, should be based on accurate scientific data.”

    You're up against a wall here Douglas. If you want to assert that the entire scientific and medical field is wrong about when a human being comes into existence then that's your prerogative. You just need to prove it.

    This is patently false. A sperm possesses 23 chromosomes and an ovum possesses 23 chromosomes. On their own, neither will become anything more than what they are. When the 23 chromosomed sperm fertilizes the ovum - a new human life is formed. Again, scientific fact at this point.

    The problem with this is that the human being is not developmentally complete at the time of birth. Indeed, at birth the infant becomes even more dependent for survival as it now exists outside the womb. But developmentally, it is still not complete. We continue to develop until our twenties.

    Perhaps the best thing you could do is define the terms, "a human life" and "a human being" and then outline the differences between the two.
     
  10. Armoured

    Armoured So is America great again yet? Supporter

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    I don't agree. To me, "personhood" requires some level of self awareness.
     
  11. SPF

    SPF Well-Known Member

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    Do you believe there is a morally significant difference between a human being and a human person? If so, what's that based on and is there a way to determine when a human being becomes a human person?
     
  12. Dawnhammer

    Dawnhammer Well-Known Member

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    The problem with that and similiar claims of aborted babies going to heaven means that logically we should do everything we can to make those sad tidings happen because it would be such a small loss to lose this chance of short physical life if it guaranteed eternal one.

    Also some heavy ethical problems with that. Some people lose their faith, sin and are doomed and unborn kids get free ride without any chance to fail because they were aborted or miscarried?

    Before they even developed nervous system enough to feel anything? Does that sound like a fair plan of just and almighty God?
     
  13. SPF

    SPF Well-Known Member

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    It always disturbs me when Christians attempt to use his line of reasoning. As a Christian, we should be striving every day to become more like Christ, this is the process of sanctification. Scripture tells us that our love for Christ should so be strong that it makes it look like we hate our parents.

    Christ died because of our sin. Our sin is what nailed Christ to the cross. And here you are, attempting to say that "logically" we should aim to sin. No. We shouldn't. The ends do not justify the means. You won't find the ethical model in Scripture that sinning a little to bring about something good is morally permissible.

    If aborted babies go to heaven, then it means that aborted babies are morally valuable human beings, which would mean that abortion is morally wrong. If abortion is morally wrong, to condone abortion (for whatever reason) would be to condone sin. So if you're going to throw the word "logically" into your argument, then what you should be saying is that while aborting a child may ensure they go to heaven, we logically shouldn't do it because doing so is sin, and our love for Christ should outweigh everything else. If it doesn't, then Christ is not our first love and we have some real heart issues to examine.
     
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  14. Dawnhammer

    Dawnhammer Well-Known Member

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    Sinning while saving another soul forever sounds about as worthy sacrifice as you can make.

    Of course we shouldn't do any of those things. Just lots of people seem to make up stuff like seeing their dead pets, or unborn babies in heaven while there is no biblical source for any of that.

    Instead we read how hard it is to get saved, how few will make it and how those saved will have to have accepted Jesus as their savior.

    So people are just indulging in wistful thinking because alternatives sound too horrific?

    Quite understandable. Very human.
     
  15. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you think our life here on earth is a small loss? I am 65 years old and I still have not figured out why we are here on the earth and just what this is going to accomplish. But I am pretty sure that God is going to cause good to come out of our experience here and it has always been sad to me that children die before they are born and do not get a chance to experience this life. So I think that it would be better to have a short life and die so that at least you would have a little bit of an experience from this world. Then never to have known what life was like here on planet earth. I wonder why people have all sorts of different lives here on earth. Some very rich, some very poor, some with very loving families and some with very mean and abusive families. Is that fair and just that some people have a lot more difficult life then others?

    Still the bottom line is that if a parent were to abort and kill their child, the child will go to heaven and will lose this experience. But still the child will be blessed in Heaven. If the parents that aborted that child do not repent then they will never know Heaven and the blessing of God. We choose life or death, sickness or health, poverty or prosperity, blessing or curse. Those are the choices we have in life and clearly there is a right and a wrong choice. This is pass or fail and there is nothing in between.
     
  16. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Matthew 19:14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

    Heaven is all about children. Heaven will be filled with children and if we do not like children then we will not be happy in Heaven.
     
  17. Dawnhammer

    Dawnhammer Well-Known Member

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    Have you found some Biblical evidence to back this up?

    Edit Beat me to it. I doubt Jesus was talking about fetuses there.
     
  18. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Where do you think all of those children in Heaven come from if they do not come from the Earth? If you do not like children, you will not be happy in heaven. God says to choose life. We have a choice. He gives us a choice and no one can make that choice for us. He wants us to choose life but He will not make that choice for us.

    Deu 30 19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.

    The sad thing is that abortion is little more then birth control for some people. Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord." Clearly life is the right choice to make. Even if we sin we can repent and still choose life. It is sad when people choose death because that is clearly the wrong choice to make.
     
  19. Armoured

    Armoured So is America great again yet? Supporter

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    yes
    It's based on the idea of self awareness, to put it simply "does the organism care that we're doing this to it?" and no, like many important moral questions, there is no way to draw a clear bright line of distinction between "person" and "non-person".
     
  20. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    So you don't know?
     
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