That Holy Ghost work in the womb you claim - it's nothing real is it?
If it is real, tell us what it is. What kind of work? WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SANCTIFIED FETAL FLESH AND UNSANCTIFIED FETAL FLESH?
Well I would suppose that if there is a self described Christian teacher/preacher who does not believe in the Trinity Doctrine, apparently thinks God has limits to where He can operate (but apparently demons do not), does not believe the Holy Spirit is God (not a person just a part of what God is) and imagines a fetus can be viewed as an unwanted "life" like a tumor, a parasitic growth, gangrenous arm or cancer but NEVER a person until born; - then I could agree that in such a low view of an individual human life there would indeed be imagined "nothing" present for the Holy Ghost to work with that such a preacher could talk about. Not so with most of the rest of Christianity undeceived by the teachings of such leaders.
Most of CF Christian members understood my comments without explanation, (except those normally restricted to Controversial Theology to present the fallout of such an erroneous and low opinions of God). For they all know that there is a person present there in the womb of Elizabeth and of Jeremiah's mother, a person the Holy Ghost, Who is God, can work with. They either know or would not be surprised to learn that has been the consistent view of Christianity from the beginning. Even though the body is incomplete, a major subset of those Christians understand that person is present from conception because that is when God creates our souls, just as they believe the Holy Spirit is God and God can work where He pleases without imagining places He cannot go/operate.
To those Christians reading this thread my comments need no explanation because they actually believe in the Trinity Doctrine, a God without limits and for a large subset of same group they understand (or would if told about it) as Aristotle did a need for all animated life to have a spirit from conception. Needed in order for that body the spirit is created to be joined to, to be shaped into the body of the unique individual that will exit the womb (or egg for some animals). Exiting as both the same spirit created at conception and still joined to the same body that began growing at that moment, only diff now is that same body is more fully formed and the same spirit of that individual has more material to work with, including a mind/brain in higher animals.
Those same Christians know that in humans that spirit, as it does in animals, is also an integral part of what makes each of us a unique individual from any other of our species. They know [or would accept] that uniqueness of each individual can in large part only arise by an influence of that same spirit long before the individual leaves the womb. So twins need two unique spirits present for example. Those same Christians know that same spirit of each human individual transcends death, even death in a womb, even immediately after conception. They know that transcendence of the existence of that soul beyond the life of our current body is the only thing about us which makes an afterlife and God's resurrection of all humans possible. We give those unique individuals their own identity. That identity is what most of us we mean by calling what is formed at conception and throughout the life of that individual how ever long or short, a unique person.
And with the exceptions already noted, most Christians reading this thread actually believe that the concept of an unique individual called a person, is exactly the same idea used to describe the un-created Three Persons of the Holy Trinity. If someone active in this thread wants to discuss the idea that those Three Persons are not really persons as at all, that Persons is just a label for a part of or element of God, then we can go to the proper place in CF to discuss that.
If someone wants to talk about what appears to me to be a view most confused about whether there is even an immaterial aspect of our existence that is woven together with the formation of our body. Unclear how we get to a trichomoty (body, soul and spirit) when the idea expressed seems clearly that "self" is a product of the mind/body, which might not be absent then in coma patience especially if determined "brain dead". So there appears nothing solidly believed beyond some abstract thought in the mind of "self". Abstract thoughts, thinking itself is immaterial, but that is not what most Christians of when describing an immaterial soul (or spirit or both if they are talking a trichotomy). This "thinking" expression of "self" seems just a combo of thoughts in self reflection - and seems to exclude a real concept of something immaterial with an actual "existence" that God makes and gives to each of us when we are formed. We could discuss that here I guess. But since thinking is obviously present in the womb before birth that fact kind of blows the whole "no Jeremiah or Baptizer present until the parasitic growth is breathing on its own" thing out of the water, certainly at six months and later.
So even if someone holds no concept of a soul (or spirit or both) that actually is a real immaterial part of our existence, as in actually exists as a created immaterial (in this context part of the spiritual realm like angels are real) part of our being, am not sure how it helps the case of claiming no person until breathing if that "no concept" attempts to put that whole idea of spirit (soul or both) on a function of our minds that obviously would cease when the brain dies. How such a Pastor believing this could rationally convince people of an afterlife or a resurrection escapes me, but in my experience some folks will buy all sorts of ideas. Difficult too to see how to deny thinking/learning obviously present in the womb, including discovery of "self".
