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  1. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Unfortunately for those who have chosen to believe unscriptural theories, God actually locks them into those ideas. Isaiah 29:9-12 And God does put people under a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. 2 Thessalonians 2:11
    Why God does this is not for us to ask, but it will result in many loosing their faith as things do not happen as they expected.

    As for 'replacement theology', this accusation is unwarranted, especially from rapture to heaven believers, who have the far worse idea of the church being in heaven as the Jews get tribulated.
    It has been made clear many times on this forum, that there is no 'replacement' of God's people. There has always been those who do not bow the knee to Baal, who keep the faith through the ages and who, in the end times will face the final persecution from the Anti-Christ. But for all the Overcomers, [literally; the Hebrew word - Israelites] who are victorious there awaits their Crown of Righteousness that Jesus will award them at His Return. Revelation 3:21
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
  2. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Well the first thing that comes to mind is that we are in perfect agreement on one thing, the resurrection of the church at the end of the age. Never favored a pretribulation rapture but I've always been happy to hear Dispensationalist views on it. I don't really see the issue as divisive or contentious by it's nature, just the idea that you have to take one side of the other turning them into armed camps. The house isn't divided on what's important, the redemption of the purchase price at the return of Christ. Some of the details of the scenario on the other hand is a bit more sketchy.
     
  3. Waggles

    Waggles Acts 2:38 Supporter

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    The problem for all those who refer to all denominations as the Church is that you are completely
    wrong in your understanding of the body of Christ.
    The Church - the body of Christ - is a tiny minority of true worshippers who are able to worship
    our Father in heaven in spirit and in truth.
    A tiny Pentecostal minority that is obedient to the one original NT gospel preached by Jesus and
    the Apostles. The first-century Spirit-filled Church wherein all could and did speak in tongues as
    the only Bible given evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit.

    Repentance, water baptism, Holy Spirit baptism with the Bible evidence of speaking in tongues.
    Acts 2:38

    The thousands of worldly denominations that collectively are known as Christianity do not
    equate to The Church, nor are they of the body of Christ.
    A disciple can only be in Jesus by the indwellling Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit can only be
    received by obedience to the commandments of Christ - everybody must be born new again by
    water and the Holy Spirit.

    Jesus himself tells us all emphatically what this would result in and how we would know this to
    be true:
    15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
    16 He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned.
    17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils;
    they shall speak with new tongues;
    18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
    19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the
    right hand of God.
    20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
    Mark 16:15-20
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
  4. Waggles

    Waggles Acts 2:38 Supporter

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    That is simply not true.
    Hence so many variations away from the original gospel and the original Church.

    3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
    4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
    5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
    6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
    Ephesians 4:3-6

    Not thousands and thousands of faiths and doctrines.
     
  5. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    The Bride of Christ IS indwelt by the Holy Ghost. Don't start me preaching.:preach:
    Yes this is what the OP is about. We are ONE.
    Eph. 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
     
  6. Waggles

    Waggles Acts 2:38 Supporter

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    Anyway why would Jesus want to rapture away a christianity that is so unbelieving, so
    worldly, so liberal, and unrighteous?
    A christianity that trashes the word of God and promotes heresies.
    Why would Jesus want to rapture up those from the mega churches preaching their dreadful prosperity gospels?
    Looking at the fallen state of western christianity it makes much ,more sense for out Lord to purge and
    cleanse christianity by allowing us all to go through tribulation.
    A winnowing of the chaff and the wheat.

    11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that comes after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
    12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge [winnow] his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
    Matthew 3:

    Remember in the beginning pagan heathen Rome with all her Babylonian religions was converted to
    the gospel [the original Spirit-filled gospel with signs following] by the blood of the martyrs - especially
    the cruel persecution of christians in the Colosseum - being fed to the lions.

    How much more will the pagan and heathen world of our times given to Babylonian religions be
    converted to the true gospel by our enduring of worldwide terrible tribulations in upholding the
    gospel and our joy in the Lord by the power of the Holy Spirit.
    Many will come to the gospel when they see the difference between true christians and all
    others.
     
  7. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    I am not wrong in my understanding, but I think you might be.

    True.
     
  8. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    Do you even understand the parable of the weeds? I will post it here for you to study.
    Matt. 13:
    24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

    25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

    26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

    27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

    28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

    29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

    30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
     
  9. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Replacement Theology is replacing the One Seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

    It is replacing the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.

    It is replacing the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, with the word "then", which is an adverb of timing in Romans 11:26.

    It is replacing the "son" who is "heir" to the land in Matthew chapter 21, with those who have rejected the "chief cornerstone".

    It is replacing the Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles, with one made up only of Gentiles.

    It is replacing the New Covenant based on Grace, with one based at least partially on race. (1 Timothy 1:4)

    .
     
  10. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +8,966
    Anabaptist
    Concerning the Echad nature of believers, do you think that ever changed ? (from the first century)
     
  11. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    Good question, methinks. What is Echad?
     
  12. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +8,966
    Anabaptist
    Ever since the beginning, all through Scripture, YHWH and Y'SHUA are Echad.
    Frequently in the Bible,
    and
    the people of YHWH , in the Old Testament, Echad heart, Echad mind,
    in the New Testament, all the disciples Jesus prays to the Father that
    they may all be Echad, exactly as ABBA and JESUS are Echad,
    that all the disciples in them be Echad also,
    and all the disciples who believe after them (thru today, to His soon return)...
     
  13. Waggles

    Waggles Acts 2:38 Supporter

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    This parable clearly illustrates that both children of the devil and children of God shall continue on until
    the time of judgment.
    There is no reference to any rapture of "the Church" before the tribulations that will come upon the whole earth immediately prior and leading up to that great and terrible day of the Lord.

    Pre-tribulation rapture is wishful thinking; a desire to avoid upholding the true gospel against the
    terror and pandemonium of the last days.
    It is not the way of christian faith - easy escape. It is not scriptural.
     
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  14. Waggles

    Waggles Acts 2:38 Supporter

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    NO not true. Christianity and its thousands of denominations is not one in the body of Christ.
    Far from it. A thousand gospels and salvation pathways does not make a unified body of believers
    by any stretch of the imagination.
    Most cannot even agree on the commandment for water baptism by full immersion.
    One simple straighforward commandment given by Jesus himself and christians will go to war
    against each other over this.

    22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable
    in his sight:
    23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
    Colossians 1:
    and here is the apostolic teaching calling for disciples not to leave the gospel preached to them.
    The one and only gospel written and explained fully in Acts and the epistles.
    Not the motley collection of competing heretical doctrines and denominations that have stopped believing the scriptures.
     
  15. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    It is clear to me that you do not understand the Bible. No need to keep posting to you.
     
  16. Waggles

    Waggles Acts 2:38 Supporter

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    Insults does not an argument make.

    And your insults arise because you have no answer to the legitimate criticism of your OP.
    Dare I even postulate that pre-tribulation rapture arises out of the corruption of prosperity gospel
    preaching?
    Whereas the scriptures tell us that we shall have tribulation in the world, mega church ministries
    tell their members that it is all about blessings, money and material gain.
    No wonder pre-tribulation rapture is preached. Can't upset all those folks giving so generously to the
    Lord via Mastercard, Visa, etc.

    Oh yes, I do know my Bible. And it tells me that my faith will take me through the terror that is coming
    upon the world, and for a very good reason. To be a light shining bright in a dark world of fear and
    panic. A beacon of hope and the promise of the gospel amid all the despair.
    And many will come to believe in the gospel through all of this because of our testimony to the
    gospel. People will be converted and born again by water and the Spirit right up to the last day.
    That is our job, our employment, our purpose.

    Read Psalm 91. It is there for us. For our times.
     
  17. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    ignore
     
  18. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +8,966
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    Ignoring the truth won't ever change the truth.

    Remember what is written, or look it up again, or look it up for the first time ever since you don't know it in your posts.

    What is written is truth, always completely in harmony and agreement with all Scripture - not ignoring any Scripture, nor twisting it for so-called 'modern comfort' (deception).

    Yes, it is painful.
    Yes, it is devastating.
    Yes, it is embarrassing.

    (this is written)

    To find out what great sin has been going on for so long in our lives, and in the lives of most all we know or hear of around the world. Sin is more common than righteousness, and it has been that way always. And people are raised and taught what is a lie, as if it is the truth; and the truth is called a lie. (this is written)
     
  19. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    Why are you focused on sin? You are so sin conscious , you can't rest in the finished work of Lord Jesus Christ. Yes sin is in the world, but believers have been saved from sin. As far as righteousness go, the word of our Father says all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Believers have and advocate, our High Priest, Lord Jesus Christ.
    1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
    Here is what the word says about human righteousness.
    Isa. 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
    But our Father loved the world so much that He gave us His son.
    Isa. 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    He took our sin/iniquity on the Cross, so why are you moping in the sin rather than rejoicing in the cross and resurrection? The Gospel is good news. John the Baptist rejoice when he beheld Lord Jesus.
    John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    Sometimes I think some people do not believe Lord Jesus is the one doing the saving.
     
  20. Robert76

    Robert76 Robert

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    I am also a pre-trib rapture believer and this view seems to be the position of our local church as well. That said, Christians will likely have differing views on this topic until, well until we are raptured, thus ending the great debate :)

    I like the following passages in particular:

    1 Corinthians 15:52
    "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed."

    1 Thessalonians 5:2
    "For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night."

    Making many inferences and assumptions I conclude that God will save His children prior to pouring out His judgments. Remember, for our sins God has already poured out His judgment and wrath (on Jesus), and that has been fully satisfied, paid in full. Thus it would seem contradictory to punish us some more prior to bringing us home.

    I cannot present a convincing enough argument in favor of this position; however, feel it's good we talk about this in perspective.

    This is a "tertiary" issue - that is, it is not central to salvation nor the gospel message. Regardless of our position on this, "For by grace you have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8). We just need to agree on the foundational tenets of Christianity: We were created by God, have sinned and all have fallen away, but God sent His only son Jesus who died for our sins, and we are saved when we put our faith in Him.
     
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